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360Q lamp choice

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Nephilim, Feb 2, 2004.

  1. Nephilim

    Nephilim Active Member

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    We're down to our last two lamps for our 360Q inventory (I forget the type; will get back to you on that).

    What, in your opinion, would be the best lamp to stock up on for these suckers, given that we're a high school and have a low budget but need lamps that will take a fair amount of abuse.

    Thanks!
     
  2. wolf825

    wolf825 Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Hiya,
    Ship can probably give ya best info on this one--given there are some differences in the 360's like reflector and lenses to consider--stuff I still don't fully understand yet. But FWIW, we use the FLK 575 and the HX600 in our 360's...and as back ups we have the usual EHGs. I find the HX600 (Osram I believe) lasts longer overall then the FLK(GE or Phillips is the brand we get I believe)..but the FLK is cheaper.

    -wolf
     
  3. Nephilim

    Nephilim Active Member

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    I think we have EHG inventory at the moment... i forgot to check :/ But I'm pretty sure they're not FLK.

    OT, I hate BTL lamps.
     
  4. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    The EHG is very similar to the FLK/HX-600 in output in real life - what you can see on stage. The FLK is a high output, lesser Wattage but lower voltage and lesser life version putting out about 800 watts worth of light for all intensive purposes. Due to it's smaller filament, it's frequently even brighter than a 1,000w FEL lamp but that's more light being used within the filament plus voltage drop, not better output.

    FLK lamps at 575w/115v are a more efficient lamp that when operated at normal voltages with a EHG or EHD lamp, and the fixture will seem much brighter than a higher real output but higher wattage lamp given the over voltage color temperature. They can be used with four per 2.4Kw dimmer instad of three also. That's the great reason to switch to them.

    As for brands, it's a high output lamp and early in technology design. There are industry preferences into what brand any one person will buy or what seems to last longer.

    My home theater goes with Wiko/Eiko. The TD won't touch most brands but due to the 1/3 cheaper price for the crap quality control lamps, he goes with it for about $10.00 each and has similar dislikes about specific name brands as Wolf does. As if any theater with more than a hundred instruments could track lamp life or even sees which fixtures blow out faster than others other than for shin buster use. For him, it's a cost thing. Philips just started making a FLK lamp, or was that the HPL lamp, in any case, it's not likely that this brand of lamp is that which is used in any theaters yet. I think it's the HPL and they don't make a FLK. Yep, it's the HPL lamp Philips just came out with, they don't even have a product number for it yet. Philips does not sell FLK lamps yet, but it's the HPL 575/115/SL. By the way in waiting and loosing market share, Philips does now have the most efficient HPL lamp on the market by fifty degrees in color temperature at 115v.

    Philips instead went with the improved FLK/HX-603/HX-605 lamp GE/Thorn also worked on but never really did much with. Philips says they were unique in it's design and it's possible, but the improved HX-601 in the form of the HX-603 from Thorn was out first. This lamp is improved on the FLK because it has a more compact and rugged filament - does not break as easily. On the other hand GE/Thorn was still thinking 120v back than for the improved version, and Philips mastered the GLC/GLA line of lamp at 115v. In this desin, Philips was also hoping that their well done GLA line of lamp, when they added a simple spring catch heat sink to it would suffice for a HPL lamp. All you need is a clip on heat sink and it's now the same lamp no matter what brand of fixture you have. Great idea, but ETC did not recognize the new lamp and it never took off with the P/S heat sink. What would ETC do if the industry forced standardized things upon them again???
    I still have a half case of them. They were sold at no more cost than the lamps without the heat sink so why not?

    The PhilipsGLA is the best lamp on the market for a high school. The heck does a high school need with high output lamps anyway? I would prefer my taxes were spent on them buying good lamps that will last 1,500 to 2,000 hours plus instead of a 300 rated.

    It's pricing is not as good as the readily available FLK, but for 8 to 9 times the life, plus more rugged construction and smaller filament, that extra cost is well worth it. In fact while in use, you might not be able to tell the difference in output between a FLK and GLA lamp. These lamps are that good. The GLC high output version of the improved line of FLK lamp on the other hand is not as bright as a FLK lamp. It's still got the heavy and more compact filament, but by specification, the GLC lamp no matter the brand is not as good in output in comparison with even a standard and cheap FLK.


    This is only for the long life lamp as opposed to the FLK or FLK/LL or HX-601. Such lamps are fine but not in the same output standards. In other words, the concept of the FLK lamp is about dead now - it's been improved upon in design. Ever notice theat the long life FLK did not come out with an ANSI code?

    Ushio and Osram, as well as GE/Thorn sell the GLA lamp now, it's just that the Philips lamp - in Osram's case the GLA is a re-designated HP 600X as is the G.E. HX-603 or 605 depending upon who's info you look at. But none of the others are anywhere near as bright or good in luminous outpt. Granted the Osram lamps are 2,000 hour and the Philips like GE and Ushio are only 1,500 hour. 500 hours in life you will also never notice the difference in. G.E./Thorn is the next best lamp, again at only 50 degrees different in color temperature, you will probably never notice the difference.

    For high output for all of you theaters with a budget, or those who want a lamp with a bit more refined beam or more output but at less wattage, Osram's HPR 575/115v lamp is the best Leko lamp at 575 Watts on the market. See Yeastrday about the 750w GLD/#6981P or 36982P lamp.

    That reflector on the HPR as I keep saying is the way of the future and something as yet is not able to be done with a HPL lamp for a ETC S-4, or able to be done by other companies. I tried it, and by chance, I was even wearing my free sample reward Osram Lighting Crew T-shirt yesterday. The quality of the beam of a HPR lamp verses a FLK lamp is enough you can see the beam of the HPR within that of the FLK's beam. This is a huge improvement in lamps and a saving grace to the otherwise sent out to pasture 360Q fixtures. Not only is it brighter, but it's a more even field of light than from any other similar lamp.

    For a high school, I would stock my fixtures with the Philips GLA lamp, than have a few Osram HPR lamps in reserve for special purposes. That or if I was edicted to the extra intensity, go with the Wiko lamp for a FLK. This also depends upon amber shift. If you plan on using your fixtures at even 75% for their maximum output, I would go with a lamp that at full already productes that output so you don't have to worry about color correction.

    Kind of like painting with your lamps to get them to max out for color temperature in design. Given most people don' t have time or budget to swap out a lamp for a EHD or even lower HX-400, I would still stick with the above GLA.


    As for the BTL - Fresnel lamp, that's about a dead end in technology also as with the FLK/EHG. It just stopped being improved earlier. That's unfortunate the rest of the fresnel manufacturers don't stress the need for an improved Fresnel lamp to keep up with ETC's Parnel. The BTL is a very rugged design however as it is. What's your problem with it? I can't see the bulb weighing enough to fail by breaking due to it's own weight. What problems do you have and what brand are you using? If you are using EHG lamps in the Lekos, and only BTL lamps in the Fresnel than they will be hard pressed to out match, than again, it's a wash light and does not need to.

    Anyway hope it helps.
     
  5. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    By the way, there is improved reflectors for the 360Q but it's generally recognized that they are not worth the money invested in the upgrade kit until the old ones die out due to the higher-more intense heat, if at all. As for lenses, look at them, they should have a blue tint to them. If such lenses have a yellow/green tint to them they need to be replaced immediately or no matter what you do it's going to muddy up what ever lamp or intent you have for the fixture.

    It's a question of the transmission ratio or quality of lens in the fixture and frequently there was a long running lot of lenses for said fixtures that had green lenses. That's a common and easy problem to solve.
     
  6. Nephilim

    Nephilim Active Member

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    So Philips GLA with Osram HPRs as special use? Sounds good :)

    We have Ushio EHD, not EHG ;) I remembered at last. The rest is Osram BTL and HPL.

    My beef with the BTLs is that I always forget to look at which bayonet piece is the large one - I'm assuming there's a reason for the asymmetric bayonet design such as better light output on one side... or just polarity?

    I'll check the lenses on those puppies after this show; most of our working stock is hung right now and it isn't easy to get a ladder over this set.

    Edit: We don't really need high output, it's a 13'-6" grid and a rather small house ;)

    Edit 2: Is there any easily-accessible reference for lamp specifications?
     
  7. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    ON the EHD, Ushio is decent, Philips and Osram make the best ones by output, almost 1/3 more by the specifications, and frequently cheaper. Ushio used to make the best HPL lamp, now Osram improved their HPL and it’s very similar. Philips makes the best but not by much. Go by price and Osram is usually cheapest. As for BTL lamps, GE and Osram list theirs at 750 hours. Ushio, Wiko and Philips BTL lamps are only listed at 500 hours, that’s a problem. Than again, all spec tables are notoriously inaccurate and abound with typos. But it’s about all we have to deal with to get more than a very broad idea and judgement calls. Euro catalog for Philips lists the lamp at 750 hours but it’s old and notoriously inaccurate. The Osram BTL lamp lists the highest color temperature in this ANSI lamp. All have the same output. Over all, those are probably the best and most economical lamps on the market for you, but Osram is about to go thru a price increase as Philips did recently. In other words, the market will be about even again in theory.

    Can’t be polarity because the outer shell of the lamp base is neutral already no matter what part you touch, Hot goes thru the center pin the neutral thru the lamp base shell. Instead it is a pre-focus lamp. What do you think that means when you can’t put it in within an either or direction? Look at how the filament would sit were it put in backwards as a hint.

    Don’t rush the looking at the lenses, it’s just a note and something to budget into replacement given you plan to keep your 360Qs and want to max out their output. If it’s out of budget, you will simply note which are green and which are blue after they are cleaned, than mark the ones that are green and segregate them to less important uses. That and color correction gel such as a 1/4 or 1/8 CT boost will help even if it drops the output some.

    Edit: if you don’t need high output, you hopefully are also going with long life HPL lamps. The 120v version of this lamp is useless in ugely color temperature, but the 115v version on the S-4 fixture is well worth the money. You just have to re-figure your designs. It’s not going to be as bright. Than again in that small of a space, that’s not needed as much to worry about. Balancing the output with life is the smart way to go. You won’t be as artistically pure, but you will be smart. The HPR lamp is excellent, but try the GLA first and perhaps acquire one of the HPR for a special pattern projection. Wait until the show requires thus pays off the special lamp, than save it for other things. That’s how I introduced FLK lamps over EHD lamps in my theater. Started with one, and as the years went by I did not do a complete change over, just switched to them as time went by. Again, the Wiko FLK lamp is going to give a lot more output by about 1/3 than the EHD and be almost ½ the price if you find a good deal on it. That verses the GLA which will probably be ½ the price more than the EHD is what you need to weigh along with personal observations on the lamps you use. IF the EHD works, and looks fine, great Osram and Philips are the best. Should you find different results, that’s all fine also this is all just lamp data and it changes very frequently with the next pamphlet or lot number.

    Edit 2: Lamp specifications in these lamps are what would be ANSI lamp charts. They are readily available and frequently include the HPL lamp even if my summation is correct that it’s not a real ANSI coded lamp. The problem is that all ANSI charts are either based upon the more broad view of ANSI specifications - not what individual companies publish about their own lamps after testing, or they are based upon the G.E. Standards, and frequently they are old standards. The ANSI system is more a broad guideline for specification than one of specific you will comply exactly type thing. GE for years was the leader in the Stage and Studio lamp market and as such they made the standard. It was and still is that if you could find the GE code for a lamp, the rest will be fairly close to it.

    When I talk about lamp specs, it’s based upon each individual manufacturers published data outside of the wishful tinking of the ANSI code. Often you can’t tell the difference between one brand and another, but almost as often you can. On certain lamps there is a clear cut difference. Can I see the difference between that GLA from Philips and that from Osram? Never tested it and I probably would not be able with the Mark 1 eyeballs. Still it’s my job professionally to first get the most cost effective lamps I can. Part of that in addition to making the vendors bid against each other is in making sure the lamps I buy are most cost effective. Since I’m good at this and have probably a few thousand hours into a overall lamp comparison table for all lamps I hand wrote, I tend to also help others choose when asked about them. I did not get any help plus wasted a lot of money in the past, figure I can at least help others in preventing this.

    Should you like a copy of my specs and have Word Perfect, have at. It’s over 25Kb in around 7 tables and constantly being upgraded. In other words, it’s not a ANSI chart though I have a very thorough running index of it plus the Lif code chart, more it’s a cross comparision of all lamps based and ranked side by side one lamp to another. Do you have to use a ETC lamp on a 3" Fresnel? What’s the difference between that and a Q150CL/DC lamp? That’s the purpose of the tables. You can have a copy of at least that days which will be out of date in a few days - it’s a running list just updated tonight in fact. Other than that, your base is the ANSI tables - I can give you a link to at least one or GE, than going to each website for a brand and looking up the individual lamps they offer. Need to find a 1Kw lamp that will fit into a 2Kw scoop that takes a BWF lamp? That’s the purpose. You find the lamp base, than the wattage, than the LCL - lamp center length or focal length, than compare output and life data, or in this case since none had a similar LCL, the bulb will be smaller in dia, and it’s only 1" longer so it just might fit and work fine. I’m going with the Ushio JT120v-1000wB lamp since the DPT is too short in life and the GE 1M/T20AB is long discontinued. At about that point lamps do become a specialization.
     
  8. wolf825

    wolf825 Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Hey Ship,
    To clarify, is that the actual lense itself being yellow-ish green--like its been in a smokey room forever and is yellowish when you hold it up to a light and not clear or blueish, or is this about the hilations you can get when the fixture is focused sharp while in use which can be blue-ish yellowish or green on the edges..

    Thanks...its too early for me to think<g>....

    -wolf
     
  9. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Hilations are normal in all forms of color temperature. I believe it's more to do with the bench focus and range though it's not something I have thought about. Instead, it's the lens directly that will appear more green than blue as you look at it under ambent lighting or compare beams in a bench focus.

    It has to do with purity of the glass. This optical quality lens is not as much of a problem anymore, but and others can be more specific, the older even 360Q lens trains had bad lenses.

    When you disessemble and clean you shuld be easily able to spot too directly differing lenses. The Amber ones just add a kind of color correction towards the green/amber you did not plan for.


    By the way, I have quite the stock of old 360Q lenses both blue and green going cheap should you want to get some. But I have to go to work now - it's 10:35 at night and the snow plow person hit the gate so it won't close. Ah' the joys of being salary and living close. One morning I was asked if I could bring a blow torch with me to work "we can't get in, the lock is frozen."

    Anyway, as I hopefully stressed, first, the improved reflector kit is rated for the 575w lamp, and should give a more efficient reflector. But even if not rated for it, the old reflectors usually work fine until they melt down and bubble up. At that point put a new reflector and gate reflector into it. That bubbling up is normally more from badly benched lamps than use however unless they are work lights.

    On the lenses, it's really common to just mark the lights with the grade of lens installed in them. Replace with good ones and if you buy used fixtures it's a good question to ask about your new gear, but for the most part on stage, unless it's a large stage with a few fixtures lined up across the stage and you are pro, you are not going to be able to tell the difference for the most part. Just something to note and watch for as well as the discontinued aluminum heat sink lamp bases and any lamp you pull out of a fixture to see if the lamp base is arcing and needs to be replaced.

    Altman stuff is easy to figure out once you get used to it.
     
  10. Nephilim

    Nephilim Active Member

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    Knowing my luck, they'll ALL have aluminium bases. Thanks again ;)
     
  11. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Use the aluminum heat sink bases until they die out. Just don't buy any more. Lamp bases are another topic. Again, I have never had a problem with the aluminum heat sinks, it's just others whome I consider fairly reliable that despise them.

    Just be careful in what you buy. Places like Production Advantage still list the heat sink lamp base as current and the high temperature version. Than instead of also listing the new improved low and high wattage/temperature versions from Altman they go with the Ushio lamp base. Good lamp base by another source, not tested by Altman thus not recognized or recommended by them. Also they note it's not UL listed Altman noted. They did have a list of companies making acceptible lamp bases besides theirs however including those from Osram. Long story, when you are ready for a lamp base give a shout.
     
  12. Dustincoc

    Dustincoc Active Member

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    I think we currently have a few EHG's and such left. We as switching all the units out to FLK's as the lamps go unless we run out of FLK's
     
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    EHG's are a good dependable lamp so are FLK's though much shorter in life. I still recommend the GLA's as a better balance in output and life between the two but both are good choices.
     
  14. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    IS the Speed cap for the 360Q a worth while upgrade to older fixtures or is the older style 3 screw endcap better?
     
  15. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Hopefully others can answer this better, never used the speed cap. Never used to have problems with the three screw adjustment but there was a gap between last using them and more recently when going back to bench focusing them and knowing more about the process thus being more picky I expect now than earlier in the career. Had some instances of perfect flat field recently on a three screw even off a incandescent #360 non-quartz series - totally balanced refined field. Other lamps that on a 360Q that were not able to focus and or by the time I wandered about in going for a focus, I terminated the lamp by cranking it’s globe against a reflector.

    Three screws are very difficult to do unless really used to them. I find pre-centering, than focusing some in a direction, than re-centering than focusing again is best. Be careful not to do too much movement of the lamp or once the lamp hits the reflector it’s a lamp that blows. Do enough and get in practice and all should be ok in the three screw method. Rough focus helps a lot, mostly a question of figuring out where the filament wants to sit in height and centering the lamp in the hole of the reflector.

    Given I had not done so recently, speed caps seem like a good idea if they work well. On the other hand, the Shakesphere and S-4 fixtures if similar at some point do not have as much ability to bench focus especially in lamp seat height and at some point just won’t get any better. Been there, done that with some S-4 fixtures, had at times lamps that just would not get any better.

    Could also be a question of investment. Once you have the fixture bench focused, as a theory at least given today’s lamps are much better than yesterdays lamps by way of accuracy, it’s easier to ensure the fixture stays in bench focus. How much do you really need to bench focus and or adjust? Will the investment in upgrading to speed cap be worth the added money or will the money saved be worth upgrading to more and or more modern fixtures? For me, I would save the money and use it for other capital improvements. More work on a budget is often worth it.
     

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