Digital Surfaces 48 or more channel consoles, who is using what?

Lextech

Well-Known Member
We got the money for a new FOH console in the pipe and I am curious as too what people are using for theatre. Scene recall that works well is a major need, remapping DCAs required. I am interested in real hands on experience from people who are mixing professionally, straight plays as well as musicals. 48 input is a minimum, so no X/M32 users need respond. Really looking for responsces from users who work in venues that produce as well as act as a road house. In particular looking for people who have mixed on the following but if I have missed something let me know:

CL5 (or 3 or 1)
vi3000 (or others in that series)
Digico "T" type

The only other major requirement is that the digital snake system to go with it must run on FO or Cat.

Thanks,

John
 
For straight theater/broadway, it is just going to be Digico T line. That is really it.

With that though, what are the actual needs of the venue? I know of no touring broadway style shows that are not carrying a mixing desk, so filling rider requirements there seems a bit strange. There are plenty of music acts not carrying console, but digico's while rider compliant are usually not preferred... simply put most band engineers have never touched one.

If you want dynamic scene control Digico is leaps and bounds better then the rest. The fact that the console knows you will be switching our actors contiounsly and allows you to do that can be huge for longer runs. The ease of updating things as the show goes is also huge. There is a reason it is the only console you ever see on broadway style shows.

The CL5 is a good desk. It sounds OK. Everyone knows how to use it, which is by far its biggest selling point. If you don't like to babysit guest engineers, get the CL5.

I wouldn't do any of the soundcraft desks, they are not rider friendly in the least. I see very little of them... and I'm not totally thrilled with their sound.

Keeping in mind that the cueing structure is not as good as the Digico stuff, take a look at the Midas Pro line. I have owned 2 Pro2's for going on 5 years. If you are producing music nothing sounds better. They are extremely warm sounding, have a great EQ, and great dynamics. After you get the desk patched they are extremely easy desks to work on.

I can comment more after you let us know what kind of work you are producing/presenting and what kind of riders you have to fill. I've always been a fan on buying gear for the 90% of show riders then renting for the rest. The Digico's are leaps and bounds more expensive then the rest... so unless you are going to use its features for most show sit might be a waste of money. I also find Digico's desks wildly expensive. You can get a CL5 for the same price as the smallest digico desk..

All in all though if you think in need really good cueing and will be doing line by line mixing, you can't beat the Digico T line.
 
I know of no touring broadway style shows that are not carrying a mixing desk, so filling rider requirements there seems a bit strange. There are plenty of music acts not carrying console, but digico's while rider compliant are usually not preferred... simply put most band engineers have never touched one.

I've been to plenty of music venues that have SD9's in-house, generally mid-tier music venues, so I think it is safe to say that there are a number of band engineers that have touched them. The good thing about the T Software is that when a band comes through, you can just disable it.

The big touring Broadway yellow card shows all carry their own desks and PA, but is a fair bit of tiny regional touring and one-off that carries just QLab and RF that would jump at an SD with T Series, additionally when I design regionally an SD9 would be leaps above what I normally get (X32's).

A CL5 list is $28K, a Rio-3224 list is $8500. An SD9 + D-Rack can be had for about $25K these days, and another D-Rack is $6500, the price is about equivalent between them. If playback is a concern, then a CL does win there as Dante Virtual Soundcard is cheaper than a UB-MADI, and if usability within moments of sitting down is a concern then the CL series will win. However if you lay-out a base scene on the Digico well and get a good solid initial state built up, then the Digico has no more learning curve than a Profile, which has a rather basic operation. The complexity the T Software adds is useful for those who know how to use it, but you can flip it on and off for those that can't manage.
 
Yes, plenty of engineers have touched the digico stuff, especially any of them that have been on a Claire rig in the last few years. They are out there, just not as common as some of the other stuff. They are about as prevalent as Midas digital.

A CL5 list is $28K, a Rio-3224 list is $8500. An SD9 + D-Rack can be had for about $25K these days, and another D-Rack is $6500, the price is about equivalent between them. If playback is a concern, then a CL does win there as Dante Virtual Soundcard is cheaper than a UB-MADI, and if usability within moments of sitting down is a concern then the CL series will win. .

That is kind of my point really. You get a lot of desk with the CL5 where you get a more limited surface with the SD9... all for basically the same price minus a few grand depending on IO. You then have to weight the physical limitations of the desk vs the flexibility of the software. I've had to go out for CL5's for shows strictly due to handle count before... A more fair comparison between the two lines would be a SD10 and CL5.
 
I've had to go out for CL5's for shows strictly due to handle count before... A more fair comparison between the two lines would be a SD10 and CL5.

The Stealth Core 2 upgrade has fixed the channel count limitations, you get 96 Channels and 48 Busses on an SD9 now, and after a little over a year it's stable...not as stable as a Yamaha, but it's stable for a Digico. That being said, the thing that throws a CL5 into the solid "win" column for me is the sheer flexibility of MIDI control. Having full control over all parameters is pretty fantastic. With the open way it handles MIDI I can semi-emulate the Alias features of the DiGiCo, which is up there on my most-used features in the T software, aside from the Delay Matrix, but I find that only appeals to a select group of folks, and if you need that in the Yamaha world you get a DME and a few Dante MY cards as your system processor.
 
We produce academic theatre, on a rather large scale sometimes, 30 plus wreless and full pit. Our space won't fit most yellow card shows, even though I did cram a two truck Footlose in it. I end up mixing most of the traveling acts we bring in, they usually bring a LD/SM due to budget. Those engineers I do see are at a LS9/X32 level more often then not. The other thing I need to be able to do is teach students how to run the console. I got thrown on a CL5 at a show never having seen one and was able to get by so I think I can teach it. For those of you who use a CL series board how is the scene cueing?

I am mainly trying to confirm that the way to go is the CL5, even though I think the Soundcraft boards sound better and is easier to navigate. I have concerns also about Harman's support as of late and I have local, well as local as I get in the middle of nowhere, back up on the Yamaha stuff. I don't have access to the funds until July 1st so any other comments are welcome.
 
If you want to look at the CL5, I would also consider the QL5. Unless you really want the user interface of the CL-series, the price point on the QL series is low enough in comparison to the CL5 and with minimal differences in features that on most of the projects I've done since the QL-series came out they've opted for the QL over a CL. Having all of the inputs on the back also means if you park a rack of wireless next to your console, you don't need to buy a dedicated Rio just for that. I tend to see the CL used where 72 inputs are necessary instead of 64, and where day-in-day-out usage justifies paying the extra coin for the Centralogic section.

The scene cueing is better on the QL/CL than it was on the LS9's and M7's. Yamaha started cheating off lighting consoles to come up with a look-ahead function for to preview the upcoming cue and to organize cues better. I can't speak much more to this functionality beyond that the LS9 cueing was the absolute worst and that Yamaha has redesigned the scene controls feature set from the bottom-up.

In terms of academia, if you go with a Dante-based console you can use Dante Virtual Soundcard on a laptop to record the entire show straight off of of the mic pre's. This gives your students the option to play an entire, real show back into the system without having an actual band on stage or an audience and being able to practice mixing a show. If you wanted to do this with Digico, you would need a dedicated MADI recording appliance or a MADI / Dante bridge to interface between a laptop with Dante Virtual Soundcard and the mixer.

FWIW, when I set up QL/CL systems for use with Qlab, I set up all of my discrete channels (Left, Center, Right, Sub, Delay L2 Delay L1, Delay C, Delay R1, Delay R2, FF, FX 1, FX 2, FX 3, etc.) as outputs over Dante Virtual Soundcard to get into the console. Then I bring each input onto a channel and patch the direct out of that channel to Dante outputs that go to the DSP and drive each speaker individually while unassigning those channels in the console from the L/R/C busses. Then what I route through the L/R/C/S/FF busses off of the console hits the DSP and sums respectively for all of the delays and auxiliary system and such. So in practice, this approach gives you a fader-per-speaker for adjusting EQ/level for every Qlab output without making adjustments in the designer's Qlab stack, doesn't eat up mix busses for each and every speaker, and preserves a simpler mix buss scheme for your live microphone/band inputs.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Digico desks. They come at a premium cost though and in my experience have a steeper learning curve for students.
 
I am a huge Digico fan, as it would appear are most of the people commenting here.

Another option I haven't seen in the Roland M-5000... Yes yes I know its Roland, but I actually like it. Not too many of them out in the wild, however a friend of mine uses it for "Jeans and Classics" (Full orchestra and rock band), and the flexable buss makes things really slick (yes if you want you can have over 100 inputs). Not to mention it is a HELL of a lot quicker to learn from scratch than pretty much anything else in the 48+ class range. It is at least worth a cursory look. Plus in my experience they give really good support, they know they are very much the underdog.

As mentioned by Mike above, the Digico has a VERY steep learning curve.

Can't say much about the CL or QL consoles as I haven't touched them. Of course worked with my fair share of LS9s and M7s (not a huge Yamaha fan).

Another thing I agree with Mike about is using multiple channels out of QLab with a Dante Virtual Soundcard, use it all the time into my Allen & Heath GLD80, each channel is routed to a different output depending on the show. VERY nice.
 
With Yamaha that might have actually made it into the v1 release. They had some boot-up sequence stuff a while back that didn't translate out of Japanese well and said some rather naughty things to you before it made it to the splash screen.
 
I'm a Midas fanboy, but the dLive looks really nice, and users seem to like it a lot. The Roland looks nice, but has anybody actually bought one? If we (theater) were in the position to spend some console bucks, my first look would be at the dLive.
 
We got the money for a new FOH console in the pipe and I am curious as too what people are using for theatre. Scene recall that works well is a major need, remapping DCAs required. I am interested in real hands on experience from people who are mixing professionally, straight plays as well as musicals. 48 input is a minimum, so no X/M32 users need respond. Really looking for responsces from users who work in venues that produce as well as act as a road house. In particular looking for people who have mixed on the following but if I have missed something let me know:

CL5 (or 3 or 1)
vi3000 (or others in that series)
Digico "T" type

The only other major requirement is that the digital snake system to go with it must run on FO or Cat.

Thanks,

John

I use a CL5 (FOH) and CL1(MON/BROADCAST/MISC) in a university PAC roadhouse that also does academic straight plays, musicals, dance, and other events. I just went through this purchasing decision and landed on Yamaha for a number of reasons. The scene recall is powerful and easy to setup, the offline editor is great, the DCA remapping is super easy to do, and the automation is nice, etc. I also often have student operators and the setup simplicity compared to Digico and Midas was a big selling point.

Dante has been absolutely fantastic for my uses. I have redundant switches in multiple locations and this makes adding additional IO wherever I want super easy. I can put my stageboxes wherever I want or break them up across the venue. We have a mixture of RIO and TIO boxes.

Yamaha is everyone's second choice on the riders I read. 99% of the time someone has a show file for some version of a Yamaha console. The conversion software is quick, easy, and pretty flawless.

Feel free to shoot my a PM and we can chat on the phone if you have any specific questions about the system I installed. It is a bit much to type up.


Consoles I have mixed on:
Avid Venue desks: New ones are expensive, the old ones are OLD, have clunky IO, no Ipad control
Everything Yamaha
Digico SD9+SD8: Good pricing but it is not on the riders that cross my desk, IO is much less flexible than Dante
VI1000,2000,6000: These are not theatre consoles, their UI can be slow and clunky, IO is not flexible, their Ipad app SUCKS
Ilive and GLD stuff but not Dlive: We almost went with DLive but it wasn't rider friendly
Midas Pro2: Rider friendly but clunky for student operators, no touch screen, IO is not as flexible, Apple only offline editors
 
I have a Vi3000 at my theatre and it has been a great fit for us. I know many people dont prefer it, but I do like mixing on it. Soundcraft has been known for slow updates and when they do update, you are the beta tester for the most part. Lately, they have done some major updates that have been very useful. I also put a Vi1 in our studio (now that board is way to slow for live use IMO) and I send all feeds from theatre to studio over Dante.
I also run AKG mics and I can get all my RF info right on the console. That has been a life saver and space saver FOH as I don't need another screen for that info.
We chose this console because of the Dante interface and the local IO it has. I keep a 32x10 snake in the pit that attaches to local IO and I also have the stage box on stage right. I swapped out 32 input channels to AES on the stage box (over 2 cat 6 for MADI) because the AKG mics have AES out. So I have 32 AES IN, 32 Analog IN, 32 Analog Out on stage and 32 analog IN and 16 Out at the console. But all my mains and monitor sends go over Dante. I am running the realtime rack as well that goes over the local fiber connection. Total of 96 ch to mix.
I do like the scene control for doing scenes for theatre. I feel there is a lot of control in there, although there can be some improvements. It has pretty powerful MIDI control that I can program it to fire my sound laptop, video Mac and the light board from 1 cue in the stack. Hit NEXT on the surface and total scene control for your production, which helps sine I am typically the only one FOH for most school gigs.
Overall, it is a great console for us here. We do 4 full musicals a year, typically kid run, as well as many school concerts throughout the year. I didn't pick this console for rider friendly, I typically rent consoles for larger touring acts through here, or they carry their own. A few have said they would mix on the Vi and they liked it. It's just not well known or overly popular in the area. I have seen many Vi6's as monitor consoles on tour gigs, just not so much at FOH.
 
It's common when companies are bought out, and the controlling force is now the profitability of a parent, not the drive of a founder (or designate).
 
FWIW, the only time I've seen an amplifier blow out its brains and smoke out because it was fed 96kHz was in an all-Harman-all-the-time install.
 

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