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65Q 6" Fresnel Altman

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Charc, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    I tried searching for "65Q", but to no avail, it was too short!

    I'm trying to figure out how I can differentiate between the old Altman 6", and the one that looks identical, but is referred to as the 65Q, accepting the quartz lamp. I'm making a little re-lamp guide, to help out the maintenance guy ;), I just want to make sure I've got everything squared away.
     
  2. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Well, I'm not really sure, but I was looking at some documents on the Altman website, and it seems the biggest difference between the 65 and 65Q is degree of the beam from spot to flood. There is a couple degree difference on each model.
     
  3. Les

    Les Well-Known Member

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    The sockets should be the same. The only things I can think of as being a difference is possibly in the reflector and lens. I've seen some older ones with a small (approx. 1") reflective dish directly behind the lamp. Behind that is another thin reflective disc (flat), approximately 3-4 inches diameter. I'm not sure but I think the 65Q has a single more common parabolic reflector about 4" dia. The other thing is the lenses. The older 65 has larger stipples on the back as well as larger concentric rings while the 65Q has smaller stipples and tighter rings, and a smaller "bullseye". That may account for the difference in degrees.

    I would say paint the 65 black if it needs it, throw in a quartz lamp and call it a 'Q'. Unless that would cause problems in which case I hope someone corrects me! (the only potential problem I can think of is melting the reflector with the intense Q lamp heat, but from what I remember they're pretty thick). And assuming the leads are updated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  4. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    The expanded parts view shows the mini dish reflector as being obsolete. However, going off of the 75Q's (8 inch Fresnels) at school, the older ones have the large reflector, 3 wire asbestos leads, and use double ended halogen lamps. The newer ones have the small reflector, the standard fiberglass sheathed leads, and the mini reflector. My guess is that the larger reflector came first as it was needed to capture the light from the larger filament structure of an incandescent, non-halogen lamp. All the old Capitol and Century 6" Fresnels I've seen have the larger reflector. With the advent of the single ended halogen lamp, it is likely Altman introduced the mini reflector to work with the smaller filament structure, but then discontinued the mini reflector when they realized their larger reflector worked better. But hey, this is just my educated guess. As long as the filament height is the same between the two, I doubt their is an appreciable difference. I think ship knows, he's mentioned "converting" 65's in the past.

    The lenses sounds like a better way to tell the difference.
     
  5. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Sound reasoning there, greenia, and I suspect factual too. Although I don't see what all the fuss is over Fresnels, they really are an obsolete fixture. If ETC don't make it, you don't need it. (Said after working yet another show with not a single piece of ETC kit.)
     
  6. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Really, not a single Source 4 in the rig?

    The times they are a-changin'. But hey that's all they ever do.

    Oh, and Fresnel's aren't dead, they have just been reborn. How many of your favorite intelligent lighting 'wash' style fixtures use Fresnel lenses, huh?
     
  7. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    37-0200?! I've never seen that before. I just had a thought hough. Maybe I could tell the difference based on the type of tilt lock? I have the old metal diamonds, not the newer plastic handles. Is that a tip? I don't think I have a known 65Q for comparison, or that would help.

    Wow, not to hijack my own thread but I really want to find out what the #!$%!#%$!$ a "LEKO" is. I have one "LEKO", it appears to have no brand marking, it appears to be a relatively new fixture, (Probably designed with 575W lamp in mind, lamped with FEL) we only have one, it has a sorta unique shape around the reflector area, and it bugs the crap out of me. Things should come in twos.

    Back to my thread:

    Any other thoughts here? If greenia doesn't know, then hell, I'm screwed.

    Edit: And what does part 06-0371 do? I don't think I've seen that either.
     
  8. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Sorry Charc, high school we had 65Q's with the large reflector and the metal diamonds, so I really don't think that is the key. Mind you our 65Q's were also brown. They could have been re-lamped 65's, but they didn't seem old enough. The 75Q's I've seen with mini reflector's were brown, and the 65Q's I've seen with mini reflectors were black. It would help if I knew a timeline for paint schemes.

    Oh LEKO's, yay!

    Here's my summary:

    Well, as you should know, Century Lighting invented the LEKO (Or was that Kliegl?? Or was it Strand, as the Strand Archive claims??). Anywho. Either way, both Century and Kliegl released the first ellipsoidal reflector spots around the same time, and Century named their's the LEKO, a name derived from the names of the two men who invented it. Century was later purchased in 1969 by Rank, who had also just bought Strand a year earlier. The UK came to know Strand as Rank-Strand, and the US came to know it as Strand-Century. The Century part of the name was later dropped. I believe your light was made by Strand in the 1980's and was designed with the FEL in mind. Derek knows Strand better than me, he can elaborate.


    Edit: Your parts questions.

    06-0371 is a metal rod that allows the front face of the 65Q to swing open. Without that rod it would just fall off when you loosened the top screw.

    And about that top screw, 37-0200. Again, another discrepancy in models. Some have the screw on top that must be loosened in order to swing down the face. Others, and probably what your familiar with, have a pin on leaf spring. Lift the pin, face swings down.

    This is all my best detective work.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2008
  9. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    Those parts make sense, thanks.

    I really need to just get that instrument out of the air and take a ton of pics.

    Thinking randomly here: is it worth it for me to wire a stage pin connector on one of those old PC units, with the glob lamp and no reflector? Are replacement lamps even available?

    Perhaps the thing to do with the 6" Fresnels is to take a bunch of pictures of those as well. I believe all our Fresnels have one reflector, relatively flat, but punched back a little, in axis with the filament, think doughboy hat, just the punched out area isn't as large:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Well we always love pics.

    As for PC's with no reflector. Me and ship talked alot about my PC. I finally decided I was going to preserve mine and retire it from stage use. Reasons: a rare type of fixture, no reflector and not as useful being a single unit. So, if you have multiple PC's of the same style, it MIGHT make it worthwhile to bring them back to working conditions. Yes, there are ways to relamp them, even using halogen lamps, but it might take more work than simply popping one in there. So, really, the choice is yours. If in good shape, I would make it useable. If not, use a low wattage lamp and you have an awesome conversation piece to remind everyone to love the S4.
     
  11. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Active Member

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    Our school shares the same type of (issue), half of our inventory is the brown or black older 65 (incandescent version) of the altman fresnel, however, the socket apparently is the same type as the older version and newer halogen lamp, so we went on a head (i should say the school district) and purchased BTL lamps for those fresnels, I emailed altman about 2 years concerning the life of these fixtures and they said it is fine to run BTLs in the older units. We also had some problems with the mid generation 65Qs (the ones that have a two piece reflector), several of those units have shown up with cracked lenses and melted/disformed reflectors. As of this moment, I am trying to beg our school district to give us some money to replace the old units with Source Four ParNels and some Source Four ERS units.
     
  12. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    It's my understanding BTLs are 500W, right? Aren't the 6" Fresnels rated up to 750W? I have some spec sheets to check... :mrgreen:

    Edit: Yep, looks like it. So I guess the usual lamp questions apply, assuming going for the long life factor:

    500W BTL or 750W BTN flavors... hmm. I can't decide, haha.

    Double Edit: Leaning towards 500W BTL
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    My reply to all posts so far so it got long.
    Big question on these fixtures would be if you are able to service these fixtures properly without sufficient supervision. I would not recommend taking them apart at all without someone experienced in doing this type of thing to supervise it. The school would probably also feel that way. While not as easy, it might be more cost effective in a legal type of way to hire someone to service them or send them in for service.

    Fixture to fixture wise, the two are for the most part the same and interchangeable. Slight differences in beam spread noted. Len’s noting of the 65Q reflectors with the little disc in the center are a sample of this interchangeability. Older reflectors often are deeper, could be having to do with the larger filament, never thought about this, or it could be a slightly different bench focus requiring the deeper reflector. Doubt in mixing new with old reflectors you will be able to tell the difference at least in old fixtures getting new reflectors. Might be a factor on new fixtures.

    Same lamp as long as the wiring has been upgraded and the lamp base is in good condition - no matter what fixture we are talking about. Inspect the bad lamps for damage especially to the center contact each time the lamp is changed. Possible to re-surface bad lamp bases but often best to just buy new ones. Use of a bad lamp base with a new lamp is a quick way to prematurely kill off the new lamp.

    The reflectors should be fine on the old fixture with a modern lamp, age and wear of the reflective surface will be the main factor in them not being as efficient or even retaining heat and wearing out no matter what lamp was used. Most older Fresnel reflectors were made of thicker materials which would take heat better, but mind you sometimes the reflector will need work or replacement on older fixtures due to wear. Sometimes you can silver polish them up and even buff them to a fine luster, other times not so much and you either live with what you get or replace it. Did write up a post a while back on a service call to many similar Fresnels.

    If the paint is in good shape, leave it alone. If not scrape what is coming loose, clean the fixture and use high temperature paint only.

    Aluminum handles on a 65Q I would not think unusual if an earlier version of the fixture. Not all modern things were available when the fixture was upgraded - most as with the reflector changing over the years also changed over the years. Good way as with paint to judge age of the fixture.

    Take a photo of the “Leko” it will be easier to determine what it is.

    Part #06-0371 is the hinge pin - a double sided 6-32 screw with acorn nuts at the bottom of the lens door which lets it hinge open. Don’t think there has been much of a change to that part over the years other than what people replace them with when they loose one.

    Where does the PC fixture question come up? Am I missing like half the posts in this section?
    A PC without a reflector - I know them so well. Worth it to wire a stage pin connector on one in general also as with the above depends upon the condition of the fixtures wiring and condition of the lamp base. Yes if it is a similar fixture to the ones I know they still make the lamp. No it was not designed to have a reflector on it if it is a “box spot” the lamp itself was too inaccurate in seat height and filament to efficiently reflect it I believe. Yes you can still get a decent beam of light without a reflector out of it. Did a few posts over the years both on Fresnels and Box spots. The globe lamp is still available, it is a 400w incandescent medium screw lamp under the name of 400G/FL and is a G-30 lamp. Decent lamp - the same lamp you would use in a 10" scoop.

    I have three version of the PC box spot, five in one brand and one of each of the others. Four of the ones that are alike I converted into MR-16 fixtures in still using the lens. They are now the primary work lights in my garage/workshop. Took a bit of tweaking to mount the MR-16 lens at the exact focus for the lens but afterwards the 50w/12v 50 degree MR-16 lamps I’m using are at least as bright as the 400w G-30 lamps without their reflectors.

    This all assuming without photos that any of these fixtures we are talking about are what we think they are. I also own three other types of PC fixture and it’s not even the extent of types available or that I have seen. Even seen some 4.1/2" Major PC fixtures that had reflectors and options of either Fresnel or PC. Sometimes especially with the better PC fixture, a reflector was available as an option. At times such fixtures can be useful but your design intent should have a need for the style of the light they put out. Did one show lit in a scene by PC fixtures, it was great - gave the exact effect I was looking for. Wouldn’t be bad to have in the active inventory as long as they are in good condition, otherwise as long as they are not rusting away, made into safe condition for storage. IF putting them into storage, it would be best to spray down everything with WD-40, wipe off the excess and either bag the fixture in a clear plastic bag or put the fixture somewhere safe and clean for a future generation to use or not.

    Same also with assuming the Fresnels in question are 65 and 65Q. Many versions and brands out there, I have seven versions currently and none are 65Q or 165Q. Six of seven don’t even date to 1970. Many are similar in shape but have differences such as instead of the lens portion opening, there is a door atop it etc. Short of photos it is difficult to get into details about the condition of the gear or what it is.

    Overall answer to the first question, lamp/care guide... yearly service and cleaning calls where wiring is inspected, lens, fixture and reflector are cleaned (ways of doing these and past discussions on doing so), initially the fixtures are given a service/safety inspection by a qualified person with them. Than afterwards while using the BLT/BTN series lamp, all bad lamps if not the lamp base by way of flash light and inspection mirror are inspected for lamp base issues such as corrosion and arching each time a lamp is changed.


    Lightingguy32, your reflectors are much cheaper to replace than the entire fixture. To the best of my knowledge, the S-4 PARnel is not the same as a Fresnel - it is a different animal. You would not be doing the school a service by replacing a Fresnel with anything. Doing a service to the school would be making these Fresnels in good condition and adding to the inventory with the other types of fixture.


    Leaning towards the BTL is the best option. BTN would be for longer throw distances, a need for more output etc and only in a fixture that is in really good condition. Both will work, the 500w lamp will have a bit less heat which will keep the fixture in optimum condition longer. There is also a 1Kw version of these lamps. The BTR is the same lamp type designed for the for the most part open faced beam projector of the same generation. Possible that in the above cracked / melted reflectors that BTR lamps were installed in the fixtures at one point by mistake (similar to people installing FEL lamps in a Leko), this as with possibly cleaning the reflector with something that left a residue which retained heat could cause problems with a reflector amongst many other things.

    Again, I highly recommend a service call for these and all fixtures by a qualified service person so as to access what needs to be done - it’s not just slapping some new paint on them or changing a reflector.
     
    gafftapegreenia likes this.
  14. Les

    Les Well-Known Member

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    I use DupliColor 1200* Engine Paint (available at O'Riley's) for instruments that need painting. They claim it uses some type of ceramic additive and I feel like it looks as close to factory black as you can get. I have also never been able to get a drip or run out of the paint. So it's pretty forgiving to inexperienced painters.
     
  15. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Ship, the PC question was another example of charc hijacking his own posts.

    Thanks for all the info. It backs up the well educated guesses I made on the timeframes.

    Charc, can we get pics soon please?
     
  16. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Hmm hyjacking one's own posts. Are you saying that he will be the next me in a few years? Random thougts etc.? Well done Charc just help make it easier to understand the jumps between concepts if at all possible.

    None the less still the caution of not getting too far in getting stuff up and running or organized short of supervision. Take it slow, organize, clarify and classify, than list what to do and how best to do it.
     

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