A new HS theatre under construction

[MNicolai]

I was a little dismayed by the state of hs theatre design in WIsconsin.

Most K12 theater projects in Wisconsin have no proper theater consultant. Typically the same vendor lays out the systems. There is little competition in the region and the vendor knows they have a good chance at getting the install so it's no skin off their back to lay something out for not a lot of design fee. Most of the people I know in that area have been burned by that vendor in one way or another, but they keep getting designs because there's little competition, and it's more money in the architect's pocket if they don't have to bring a dedicated consultant on-board and pay for them out of their A/E fee.

The consequence is a lot of projects that have systems designs but without any of the organizational or architectural theater planning a proper consultant would offer to deliver a project that will be successful in the long-term.

It's a shame, really. SE Wisconsin is hot with high schools building theaters by looking over their shoulders at what their neighbors have. It's like a nuclear arms race for each HS to have a better theater than the high school 25min away, but you mostly end up with a bunch of cookie cutter projects where the latest iteration of an architect's design of a "typical HS theater" doesn't even improve upon the obvious issues with the previous 2 schools they built with that design.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Well, not from me. I'm in Clayton NY since spring.

What do you think it should include? I thought a long session could be the case study of this project (McFarland PAC) but based on questions here and what I see and hear, a session on stage flooring would be well attended.

My interest was a statement here (CB) several years ago from an auditorium manager (Sun Prairie?) About how do they know what's best? Architects don't know what happens backstage (or else so many would not stop wood floor at end of battens and leave a noisy trip hazard transition to concrete.)

 

[Kristi R-C]

The AV company I'm working for now is making bank fixing the cookie-cutter lowest bidder installs. Pity, do it right the first time and save everyone a lot of hassle.

 

[Joshua Schoeneck]

Most K12 theater projects in Wisconsin have no proper theater consultant. Typically the same vendor lays out the systems. There is little competition in the region and the vendor knows they have a good chance at getting the install so it's no skin off their back to lay something out for not a lot of design fee. Most of the people I know in that area have been burned by that vendor in one way or another, but they keep getting designs because there's little competition, and it's more money in the architect's pocket if they don't have to bring a dedicated consultant on-board and pay for them out of their A/E fee.

The consequence is a lot of projects that have systems designs but without any of the organizational or architectural theater planning a proper consultant would offer to deliver a project that will be successful in the long-term.

It's a shame, really. SE Wisconsin is hot with high schools building theaters by looking over their shoulders at what their neighbors have. It's like a nuclear arms race for each HS to have a better theater than the high school 25min away, but you mostly end up with a bunch of cookie cutter projects where the latest iteration of an architect's design of a "typical HS theater" doesn't even improve upon the obvious issues with the previous 2 schools they built with that design.

I'm the TD (among other things) for one of these high schools in SE Wisconsin and was terribly disappointed by the vendor/consultant, which I assume is the same one you are referring to. I felt we weren't really listened to or consulted and were just offered their standard package. I'm very glad that we visited another theater constructed by our architect and the same vendor. Their TD was very informative in pointing out issues that they ran into and this helped us avoid some of the same problems.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Vendors want to do what they done, or always done. New and never done it before are risky.

 

[MNicolai]

@Joshua Schoeneck
Yes, you guys got a cookie cutter theater. That theater was a variation of what Oconomowoc HS got, and Sussex Hamilton before it. If you spoke with Michael Duncan at Oconomowoc, I'm sure he was very informative and candid about the shortcomings of that theater. Nonetheless, a highly functional type of space but the concept has obvious and easy ways it could be improved -- the theater consultant/vendor just isn't engaged enough to do anything about it and the architect doesn't know better.

First year we were open at Ocon we had to have an independent rigger come in and prepare a report of all the ways the rigging installation was deficient. Only way I could find out where the all the circuits in the house/lobby/BOH lighting went to was to run around the building with a two-way radio and have someone at a console run a channel check -- vendor didn't share any circuit plots, plans, or lists with us that were accurate. Same went for a section and plan of the rigging plot. Their records showed sets in entirely different locations than what their rigger ended up installing -- and what their rigger ended up installing banged into other items in the fly loft and rendered one or two sets useless until they were re-rigged several years later.

Not sure if you got it too, but Oconomowoc got a fire curtain and a deluge system. The fire curtain didn't have smoke pockets so it was never installed in compliance with life safety codes -- though because of the deluge system it was never necessary in the first place. Interestingly enough, they recently had to tear out the fire curtain because of all the soft goods in the room, it was the only fabric that would no longer pass flame tests.

Probably one of the most irritating issues was "the poke", the 25' x 60' swath of apron downstage of the plaster line. A huge amount of acting space that could only be lit by the mid-house catwalk or by a couple torm positions. The torms were inaccessible because they were over sloped flooring and to hang/focus you had to be on an extension ladder backwards and left-handed in positions with no places to tie-off a harness to.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I've never '"copied" a design. Always start with blank sheet and try to not repeat any weaknesses or faults I've ever committed or seen.

 

[RickR]

I've never '"copied" a design. Always start with blank sheet and try to not repeat any weaknesses or faults I've ever committed or seen.

At the same time, humanity has been doing theater in the same basic form since at least the ancient Greeks. Hundreds of school theaters are built every year with the same basic goals. Sure the decoration and alignment 'need' to be different, but the Audience to Performer relationship is the same. The choice seems to be the devil you know vs the surprise behind door #54774357.

I say the same thing about houses, but we've been doing them for far longer. Yet everyone wants one that's different and the contractors rarely come in on time or within budget.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

At the same time, humanity has been doing theater in the same basic form since at least the ancient Greeks.

True but I'm pretty sure for the same number of seats I have reduced the distance from farthest seat and average distance to the stage on almost each project, despite people getting larger and codes - accessibility - pushing the other direction.

Not to mention technology changing daily. There are electrical engineers out there using the same theatre lighting system design they used 20 years ago. I won't start on mechanical engineers and noisy systems.

Looking at a lot of HS theatres, I think many need to start over rather than using the last design.

 

[TimMc]

Copying? The form factor of a "theater" combined with comfort and aesthetics desired by They Who Cut the Cheque® tend to set the major architectural and practical limits of design, and the details contain so many devils ... but things tend to look and feel similar because of the form factor. Think: hotel banquet facilities; if you've been back of house in 2 or 3, you know how almost every one of them is laid out.

In a world where contractors can't build to the prints, where the architect's detailers have never done a theater, to the client who juggles the construction budget toward things that make visual impressions over functionality when costs over-run... it's a bloody miracle we can even build a decent performance space.

 

[macsound]

Not to fall down this rabbit hole again but how do architects and contractors end up designing and building something they've never done before without asking for some input. Seems like at-the-least an ultimate letdown, uncomfortable conversations and a bad rep for all parties involved.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

chutzpah

 

[MNicolai]

In fairness to architects, a lot of schools want to use a general design concept that's been successful somewhere else. Often looking for a "site adaptation" of a previously successful design with some modifications instead of a brand new design from scratch. In my region, most school districts are county wide and with exception to the magnet schools, most public schools are site adaptations. The districts that want a brand new design generally need a budget climbing up closer to $20M than $10M because they have a longer wish list they're trying to fulfill.

Not to fall down this rabbit hole again but how do architects and contractors end up designing and building something they've never done before without asking for some input. Seems like at-the-least an ultimate letdown, uncomfortable conversations and a bad rep for all parties involved.

Usually it's not their first, but often it isn't more than their 5th. Individual theater projects are cutthroat and the A/E selection often emphasizes prior demonstrated theater experience. Hard to win a project that's just a theater without having a long resume of prior experience. A/E's without a lot of experience usually cut their teeth on new campus-wide construction projects where the A/E qualifications interviews focus more on overall campus design and the theater is just one element in a much much larger project. So if your theater gets built with the rest of the campus, there's a better shot you'll have an architect who's not regularly engaged in theater design.

Behind the scenes, you may also have a firm where the firm doesn't have their name on many theater projects but individuals on the architect's team do from a previous firm they worked for -- or vise versa, the firm has a lot of theater experience but with an architect who recently left their team for greener grass. In this economy, there's a lot of that going around because it's an aggressive market for talent. If you ever sit on an A/E selection team, keep that in the back of your head when you're reviewing credentials, and ask probing questions.

 

[Kristi R-C]

My dear fellow Wisconsintes... I feel your pain. SO tired of seeing the same list of fixtures and no contact with the end users before decisions are made. Things that make no sense, or are completely wrong for theatre at any level, much less at a HS.

SO - PM me and lets put together a standard for what we want WI theaters to have as a BASE knowing that each school has unique needs beyond that.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

a general design concept that's been successful somewhere else

It's the "successful" judgment that concerns me. And the decision-makers, school admin, design principals, school board, rarely possess the knowledge and experience to know, most often don't know it.

 

[AlexDonkle]

It's the "successful" judgment that concerns me. And the decision-makers, school admin, design principals, school board, rarely possess the knowledge and experience to know, most often don't know it.

I'd agree, and getting the right information on exactly what the problems are and how they could've been prevented is very difficult to actually get to the bottom of.
On my non-theatre projects, I've learned to admire how dedicated Hotel and Mall operators are at evaluating operations for all their existing properties and rolling those updates into their new ones. They act as the voice of experience for A/E teams so that the buildings will functional, but for performing arts projects without a theatre consultant it's not too surprising some projects turn out poorly.

 

[The_Dingman]

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I was discussing this facility with area colleagues today.

What I don't understand, is why no one really talks to other venues in the area that have things that work. We have some very well equipped high school facilities in the area, and two genius-level audio guys at Overture Center, both whom have experience with designing audio systems - yet the last two theaters to be built in our area have drastically inadequate sound systems.

It's as though everyone is assuming that these spaces will be nothing more than a newer version of the traditional high school theater, while we have a few schools in the area with truly top-level PA systems, installed by experienced companies that specialize in concert-class audio - not churches and gyms.

 

[RonHebbard]

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I was discussing this facility with area colleagues today.

What I don't understand, is why no one really talks to other venues in the area that have things that work. We have some very well equipped high school facilities in the area, and two genius-level audio guys at Overture Center, both whom have experience with designing audio systems - yet the last two theaters to be built in our area have drastically inadequate sound systems.

It's as though everyone is assuming that these spaces will be nothing more than a newer version of the traditional high school theater, while we have a few schools in the area with truly top-level PA systems, installed by experienced companies that specialize in concert-class audio - not churches and gyms.

@The_Dingman Another popular, but similarly unfathomable, occurrence is:
How many times have you seen the various "committees" tasked with garnering advice from others in their areas making a bee line to the newest, snazziest, most up to date venue in their town and asking their manager / owner / FOH manager how they like their new venue?

Think for ten minutes: Do they really think any of the people associated with their bright and shiny new 'toy', the one still being extolled by the mayor within the first 7 pages of their town's news paper, are going to proclaim anything other than lavish words of praise??

Ask theatres which have been in operation for 5 to 10 (or more) years what's wrong / ill conceived / poorly executed / problematic / built with little forethought, if you want to glean the truly worthwhile perspective.

One more thing commonly seen is / are "committees" comprised of a town's "higher society" folks, folks who've spent decades in the finest theatres in your area but never ventured any further than the lobbies, bars, front rows or box seats; the folks who attend theatres to be seen rather than see.

Docks, docks? We're not building a yacht club, why would we want docks??
Truck docks, huh? Why would we need a truck dock? Dock level? That looks far too dangerous, a person could fall off the edge and get hurt.

Trucks are really that high?? Are you serious??? You're kidding us, right????

TWO!!????? WHY WOULD WE EVER WANT TWO??????
Oh, you mean the beer and liquor trucks park way back here, uh . . . Surely the bars are in the lobby.

Garbage, garbage trucks; don't you just put a couple of cans out by the curb with the theatre's address on them??????
@The_Dingman C'mon, fess up, admit it; you've seen this before.
Posting in full support.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[The_Dingman]

@The_Dingman Another popular, but similarly unfathomable, occurrence is:
How many times have you seen the various "committees" tasked with garnering advice from others in their areas making a bee line to the newest, snazziest, most up to date venue in their town and asking their manager / owner / FOH manager how they like their new venue?

Think for ten minutes: Do they really think any of the people associated with their bright and shiny new 'toy', the one still being extolled by the mayor within the first 7 pages of their town's news paper, are going to proclaim anything other than lavish words of praise??

Ask theatres which have been in operation for 5 to 10 (or more) years what's wrong / ill conceived / poorly executed / problematic / built with little forethought, if you want to glean the truly worthwhile perspective.

One more thing commonly seen is / are "committees" comprised of a town's "higher society" folks, folks who've spent decades in the finest theatres in your area but never ventured any further than the lobbies, bars, front rows or box seats; the folks who attend theatres to be seen rather than see.

Docks, docks? We're not building a yacht club, why would we want docks??
Truck docks, huh? Why would we need a truck dock? Dock level? That looks far too dangerous, a person could fall off the edge and get hurt.

Trucks are really that high?? Are you serious??? You're kidding us, right????

TWO!!????? WHY WOULD WE EVER WANT TWO??????
Oh, you mean the beer and liquor trucks park way back here, uh . . . Surely the bars are in the lobby.

Garbage, garbage trucks; don't you just put a couple of cans out by the curb with the theatre's address on them??????
@The_Dingman C'mon, fess up, admit it; you've seen this before.
Posting in full support.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

That's exactly my point. We have schools around that have very nice spaces that are used for a variety of functions. I manage one only about 45 minutes from McFarland that is 20 years old this year - and I have very few complaints about the design, but I do have many opinions on what should absolutely be copied - and have been willing to share them - including with the McFarland superintendent when he visited our theater. We operate about 50/50 school vs community use, and the only school theater in the area that makes more than we do on rentals is Middleton. But no one thinks to get perspective from these spaces. No one thinks to ask real professionals in theatre what is important. As Nate pointed out above, McFarland squandered the fact that they had an expert on audio already in charge of their old space.

What bothers me more than anything is that nearby districts learn nothing from these experiences.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

No one thinks to ask real professionals in theatre what is important.

I think I'll take exception to that.

All I noticed in touring schools around Wisconsin was how blanking noisy they were - no attention to background mechanical noise or isolation from adjacent spaces and little to natural acoustics. (Which by the way are phenomenal at McFarland. The orchestra sounded wonderful!)

I can't explain why no one asks your opinion.