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A question for Ship or anyone else

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by SHARYNF, Jul 14, 2008.


    SHARYNF Well-Known Member

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    This is probably something Ship knows right off the top of his head :)

    What is the difference MSD 250 HSD 250 and then also the /2 variants?
    Are they all interchangable?

  2. porkchop

    porkchop Well-Known Member

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    When I read that the first time I was wondering why you were asking about car performance parts (MSD being the vendor that is almost exclusively endorsed by the NHRA for ignition systems). I bet Ship will be more helpful
  3. IlyaSmirnov

    IlyaSmirnov Member

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    UMD, College Park, MD
    I can't comment on the HSD250, but the MSD250 and MSD250/2 vary in colour temperature and CRI - the 250 is 6700 K, and the 250/2 is 8500 K. More detailed specs can be found in the links below:

    MSD 250
    MSD 250/2

    By the looks of it, they're easily interchangeable.

  4. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    HSD 250/60
    MSA 300 (3/03)
    MSD 250
    ESD 250-SE-D
    BA 250 SE D
    USD-250 NHR
    CSD 250/SE
    RSD 250w/60
    RSD 250w/78
    RSD 250w/80
    HSD 250/78
    MSD 250/2
    USD-250/2 NHR
    CSD 250/2/SE
    HSD 250w/UL/75
    HSD 250w/80
    ESD 250/2-SE-D8.5
    BA 250/2 SE D8.5

    Earlier this past week a friend of mine asked me about the Devine version of the MSD 250/2 lamp.

    Lots of brands, two or three lamp types in general amongst them. All will work in your fixture. There is more than above listed.

    Color temperature, that’s a specific point, between brands, they range between 6,000̊K and 8,500̊K and there is a wide variation in that between the two dependant upon brand and what date or source your literature is found in - Euro verses American even websites often also even don’t agree in this. CRI... yep it’s there but also widely varying. Let’s put it this way, if over 65 and up to 90% you are doing well. Luminous output, between 16,000 and 18,500 lumens and you probably won’t much notice the difference much sufficiently in use. Lamp life... That’s where lamps sold cheap differ from ones costing say 50% more at times. Get a lamp rated at 2,000 hours at 50% the price - almost, this verses a lamp rated at 3,000 hours if not up to 6,000 hours and you see a price break on lamps but ones that mean you need to change them more as a norm.

    Also things such as “domestic” verses imported lamps in taxes on the imports save money domestically or for those more grey market that don’t pay the lamp tax.

    All sorts of things about this style of lamp, Amglo, Eiko, Devine, Radium, Ushio, GE, Osram, Philips, possibly Wolfram and others all make a decent enough lamp. The Philips lamp is the bench mark and in general they for single ended moving light arc lamps are the bench mark for the industry, are there comparative lamps, sure but are they the bench mark - for sure. I stock them for resale but between Osram, Ushio, GE and them chose another brand that was the same in color and lamp life thru that lamp’s life in matching that of the Philips but cheaper. On the other hand amongst the tree there was others that didn’t match as well or last as well.

    This much less on every Philips lamp of this type there is a serial number on that lamp which is unique to that lamp. Other brands you are lucky to find one or in it being unique to a lot or even there. Very important if you want to say send back a lamp for a performance problem in tracking it if you can track it. Given on this style of lamp, you writing in your own serial number with graphite pencil on its base will also work in tracking it - just takes some extra time if time is cheaper than lamp cost savings.

    Philips is the bench mark none the less - most use the MSD 250/2 version as an industry bench mark for its higher color temperature but otherwise the MSD 250 is still available thru any numbers of brands.

    Three choices for the most part, the MSD 250, MSD 250/2 and the long life versions in the over 3,000 hour range such as the MSA 300 from Philips which doesn’t say it’s the same lamp but will work in all fixtures and last double that lamp life and not miss out much otherwise on output.

    2,000 to 3,000 hours while most lamps won’t see that many hours is a big deal - 50% of lamp life in the end for X’ amount of cost is what it adds up to. If a lamp is listed at 2,000 of hours is not 50% that lamp’s price than it should not be chosen persay. Than again that’s assuming any lamp will live up to 3,000 hours and I doubt I have ever seen one live up to that but it’s a fairly new rating of a few “premium brand lamps.” But still that’s a rating that is worth money in explaining why some lamps for instance might be cheaper - lamp life rating is often lost in paperwork. This and CRI is often also a minor detail but ever so important for lamps that otherwise match in lumens and color temperature.

    Brass tacks as it were. Amongst the premium brands I tested them all and the Philips lamp is the bench mark. That said, I stock it for retail and emergency stock needs only and don’t use it as a primary lamp for that type. The GE lamp for me in testing was just fine and less in price. The Osram lamp in testing didn’t match or stabilize it’s arc sufficiently for me though a good lamp sufficiently - a few versions tested and a few on the market or off the market now. Overall the GE is what I settled with though I prefer the Phillips. Ushio to the best of my knowledge in the USD lamps as opposed to USR lamps, still buys the Phillips lamps in not making their own - not a big market for them in that they still have not figured out the USR lamp sufficiently and the USD was at last notice still beyond their capabilities. So the USD 250/2 is a re-packaged Philips MSD 250/2 for all intensive purposes. GE being now Koto is good for this lamp, Osram lamp while I buy other single ended lamps of the brand, it didn’t test as well in this style as opposed to other premium brands not testing so well in other wattages. Again, question of premium brand in all being quality. Even for the 575/2w MSR type test, the Osram lamp testing as well as the Phillips lamp and the GE not so well but it could also have been a lot number. The Ushio version while seemingly exactly the same as the GE in how its made also didn’t test so well for even worse reasons.

    Still that’s the premium brands and all no doubt would be sufficient if the house brand. Than one gets into the other brands say Amglo, Eiko, Radium and Devine. Possibly also Wolfram but unknown or less studied in brand. Of them, tested some early on in the only domestic brand Amglo and they didn’t do so well a few years ago on quality control or lot to lot number sameness which is tremendously important. Philips for this lamp again being incredibly similar and a bench mark. That said, the Amglo quality did go up towards the end of my affiliation with their lamps a few years ago. Decent brand and if a problem, they as with most will attempt to solve the problem, just for me I needed at the time a more dependable product they could not supply - again at the time but no doubt can now.

    Eiko - tremendous change about them in becoming close these days to premium brand. That said, never yet tested their lamp. Radium, same concept in not having tried but good respect and even more company history behind the lamps sold. Believe Osram in some way owns them but they still have some indipendance. Sylvania - Osram owns them and if buying Sylvania it’s the same as Osram but not supposted to be in the US so be suspect of a grey market lamp.

    Devine brand of lamps is a fairly newcomer to the industry. Not much posted about them on the website, and it has legal departments for some premium brands interested in them no doubt in listing their lamps as per the lamps by them. Saw one of their lamps once - it was a gas leak failure before its time. Caused an interest by me that got other brands to note them. Still, not much known about them. As said to my friend, I would want a good read of their return policy before I bought from them but still for the price and accepting that they are for the most part selling lamps as replacement for X premium lamps that don’t really match those lamps in spec. persay in all ways, it’s as it is. For the price, the base question will be will it live up to my needs and will it in output and quality be what I expect? That’s a question I left off to him in he already knows my retail price for Philips than other Premium, and went on-line for the Devine lamp. Others are using it, it’s quality.. Only seen one so far in demise.

    On Wolfram and others, not as good advertised but domestic and out there. Daymax/Wolfram/ORC/Perkin Elmer , really good company - really hard to find and hard to find specs in lamps to but decent brand that’s domestic also. Should have their own version of the lamp also.

    IN the end, first the color temperature you desire. Second the lamp life in cost/benefit analisis of lamp life, then CRI - all assuming luminous output is within 1,000 Lumens of each other. That’s the initial things to play test. Than is long term considerations of living up to it’s spec.

    The Philips MSD 250/2 is certainly a benchmark. Can you match it... that’s the question, or how much you need to come close to it, it’s important in the end but more of a long term study. Gotta study your lamps in making an informed opinion and choice.
  5. TimMiller

    TimMiller Well-Known Member

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    Houston, Tx
    You forgot the MSR 250 will also fit, shorter life but hotter color temp. has the intelligent light white kinda light rather than a warmer color temp.
  6. JD

    JD Well-Known Member

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    North Wales PA
    One other thing about HMI- (which is basically MH lamps) Although the theatrical lamps are far more consistent than the architectural lamps, It is always best to try to relamp with bulbs from the same date batch. I get the feeling that mixing the metals that go into them is not an exact science. Even lamps from the same manufacturer but from different batches can vary in color temperature. This is one good reason to buy in case lots. Most of the time, an unopened case will contain lamps that came from the same batch run and will be very close.
  7. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Depends on your situation.

    For a club or theater, it might be beneficial given all lamps have about the same lamp life to swap out all at once but for the industry in general, as it were say rock and roll touring and or convention lighting, say ten or many more fixtures got sent on a tour, they come back and say half go on the next tour that might run such lamps into the ground - 10% output and way past the lamp life, while others got instead got sent on a corporate one-off show and came back. Than those fixtures got re-bench focused against brand new and other fixtures coming off a tour and or next corporate show. Once you mix and match the use of the fixtures in an inventory in say like ten tours at any one point going on and like 20 or more corporate shows, plus new gear constantly coming in, it’s all about the individual fixture as it compares to another and or the entire truss of them in say a show that’s been out for a year now and already changed the lamps in the fixtures at least twice now - truss section by truss section beyond individual blow outs.

    Just finished bench testing four of the new Philips MSR 1200SA/DE/2 lamp - (Unknown official name to it.) This was tested with a bench mark brand new HTI 1200w/D7/60 lamp, a MSR 1200SA/DE and two +/- 300 hour HTI 1200w/D7/60 or HMI 1200w/S lamps. All six brand new lamps seemed without pulling out the light meters the same - no difference, and brighter than the used lamps. This with optimizing each for performance. That’s not to say that all the new lamps as normal couldn’t be optimized as it were to match the older lamps or is for sure known that the older lamps were optimized well enough to match the new ones in a happy medium. Only said all three new lamps and of two brands looked the same on bench focusing, and none of them initially matched the used mid-life lamps.

    That’s Philips and Osram as well I expect with GE/Koto because Koto for a brand was also an excellent lamp for the fixtures. Koto now makes all GE moving light lamps. On the other hand at one point where I worked switched to Amglo for a brand for most moving light lamps and many of the lamps we were using were brand new for them. Took some time for them to stabilize their production in fill pressure etc. Lot number to lot number they had a lot of trouble in being the same, this much less in matching up to the above premium brands of lamp in both matching them and having a stable output that lasted for the most part over the life of the lamp. Took them over a year but towards the end of our contract they did do so. Same with Eiko in being new, no doubt Devine etc. Main problem is in matching up to a bench mark lamp. If say a MSR 250/2 lamp from Philips is your bench mark, you expect it will match up to it from brand new to old in preformance this as an individual lamp and in matching up to other fixtures having that other lamp. Really hard to do. Devine lists their lamps for instance as direct replacements for the other lamps and they cannot be in that even the difference between a Osram and Philips lamp might differ and in testing they did. Neither or none bad but just didn’t play nice with each other. The other brands have to be on their own or directly match say one brand not all brands because in that they fail. The GE CSD 250/2 SE for instance in testing matches up really well with the MSD 250/2. The Osram and Ushio versions on the other hand do not. Not to say they are not good lamps, just that if the Phillips is the bench mark and say you have a hundred or more fixtures already with the Phillips, one needs to either stay Phillips or go with what matches best overall initially and over its lamp life. Each brand it’s unique lamp life and characteristics. The MSR 575HR lamp for instance will work on a VL-500A but the Osram HMI 575w/SEL on the other hand wouldn’t work dependably in the fixture. Same basic lamp, little less fill pressure. On the other hand in using a different ballast the Chroma Q Daylight Par works just fine with the Osram lamp. This is an extreme but an example of situations that develop by way of say a GE lamp cheaper working just fine, but in some instances even if the same basic lamp the say Osram lamp not working at all even if the specifications are similar. IN testing the MSR 1200SA/DE lamp didn’t last as long or dependably as the HTI 1200w/D7/60. Philips came out with the next prototype to address that I think - still yet to get product specs on what I’m play testing. Who knows what in the end will be the better lamp.

    Add to this wide ranges in color temperature - about so you can by lamp choice tune in what color temperature you desire the fixture to put out - a difference between MSR 250, MSD 250 and MSD 250/2 if I remember correctly in not checking my notes - amongst brands having a range of color temperature plus as noted, lamp life hours, wide range in them. Some moving light lamps go 500, some 750, others are in the 2,000 to 3,000 lamp hour range (MSD types amongst brands) and some are even in the 6,000 hour range given a drop in output for them at least but often more output on the MSD lamps than MSR lamps as an exception.

    On the other hand, just bought some lamps for a customer. They were looking for 150w R-40 lamps for their stage. Sorry, ran out of sources for such a lamp in no longer really available for a stock incandescent lamp. Had to sell them 120w Watt Meiser lamps instead. About similar but won’t play nice with the lamp they are used to if one is next to another. Lamp changing and or problems of playing nice with each other is very common. Can’t tell the difference between HPL lamps to the best of my knowledge, and for the most part on real ANSI lamps, you shouldn’t by the eye be able to tell much of a difference brand to brand but there are in the industry differences otherwise brand to brand in a lamp. Just how it is and what makes study into them interesting at times.

    On full lots or un-opened cases of lamps, I buy say the Mac 2K lamps in lots of 100 per month per year. I try hard not to - at least as much as possible not out lamps of the same lot on the same show if at all possible. This granted it’s often easier and without problems. Once in a while however you will get a bad batch and a case of ten while often the company itself mixes up what’s in a case to ensure you don’t get all a case as bad persay, you will run across a large big batch meaning you get an entire case of bad lamps that even if mixed up amongst the lot was still all bad. That would mean all the spare lamps or lamps sent out to prep fixtures with were bad as opposed to say one out of 20% spare lamps sent on the show. Much better as today when a show got 4x VL500D lamps bad (unknown reasons be it someone in getting the spare lamps before their show didn’t mark the boxes as bad, lamps got dropped in bad packaging or bad lot of them), none the less they still in getting a few bad lamps still had a few more to use and only needed a re-supply of spares. This as opposed to searching out for local vendors that had the lamp available at extreme price given all the spare lamps were bad. Different lot numbers of lamp at least given one out of three reasons (above) this show wound up with bad spare lamps, at least got them two spare lamps that did work. IN sending them four more, one more lamp was bad in pulling it out of the cabinet. Broken filament, not used but could have been dropped. Hard to tell on the bad packaging not sufficient to support the lamp in a drop, verses bad lamp. Just a few $$bucks per lamp down the hole.

    Still in my opinion, it’s best and most economical to try not to use the same lot of lamp unless in a perminant install installation where normal what is it 80% group replacement rates apply. And for that one hopes they don't die before they should or one's business manager might just have a hart attack with an un-expected expense.

    Side notes on bench focus and or one brand or another of moving light lamps. In the above Mac 2K lamp examples, it was not that one brand didn't live up to its expected lamp life persay, or for the most part 2/3 of that expected lamp life as the norm lamp to lamp, only that the other brand normally lived up to 1/4 past its' expected lamp life over that which in well over 100 lamps - well over, I found to be fact for my instance. Thus now the test of the new lamp now out on a tour mentioned on this forum of the four prototype lamps.

    Also, a concept of lamps in use other than in club or more or less perminant install. Some lamps go out on tour and those tours can last months or years - got a really really long tour out there for instance that has gone thru hundreds of moving light lamps in the past year, or for instance a shorter production that paid for a total re-lamping at once. Two different options. For me on the other hand it's more those fixtures that come off a long tour and by that time assuming what was a used lamp has already expired during the tour, some designer in the programming stages already rejected the lamps which after programming were not the same or by choice chose six at random say to replace etc. This in addition to during the tour lamps replaced at any point in the tour. You get a range of lamp life in lamps coming off the tour but for the most part after the tour the lamps mostly trash.

    IN a total inventory, once off tour some fixtures will get turned around for a new tour in getting either re-lamped new or if looks good still in bench focus amongst ten or thirty fixtures all on-line and focused together, they all look good or are optimized the same. Some won't stay that way but most do with varying hours just as some lots of lamp won't last as long as others no matter the brand - a how close to lunch type of thing at times I'm sure. Still that's the fixtures that got sent out on another tour along with new fixtures that with new ballast will further complicate the matter of used lamps matching up with new lamps. Some fixtures won't be needed for the tour persay and will instead be turned around for say a corprate show or even tent show or what ever. Such fixtures than get teamed up with other of the type that didn't do the tour and instead just went out on say one-off's for the last few months. Far different situations for the lamps in the fixtures by way of hours and strike amounts. Each show gets all fixtures going out on it bench focussed next to the rest of the fixtures going out on the show. Doesn't matter the lamp life, each is matched to another after initial inspection and cleaning. Don't matter lamp hours once they all get optimized together, what don't match gets replaced. No buckets of "good" and "bad" lamps next to each other to re-lamp to given the show - all shows get good lamps or the lamps are replaced. All lamps are also tracked on computer to their life for return value. None the less, further info on lamps in a touring situation in me having a return factor of like 60K a year in bad lamps back to the manufacturers for bad lamps and some do or are because of bad lots of them. Better to mix up the lamps supplied to the fixtures in not getting a bad lot because it does happen and unless you are organized enough to tell lamp history sufficient to send it back, you are better off both for lamps on hand and ability to cover for bad lots of them get them at random.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2008
  8. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Assuming re-lamping and more or a static use of all fixtures having the same lamp life, and also assuming that color temperature is determined in dialing in that for your needs or not as important. Than that lamp to lamp, luminous output brand to brand is fairly standard in the specs and given slight differences in output and color temperature and output within a lot of lamps within the same brand won't be much a factor, I would than go for optimizing my efficiency, lamp life and cost.

    Most premium brands of MSD 250/2 or similar lamps have a 3,000 hour lamps life. Balance that with your budget for buying them and the opposing 2,000 hour lamp life cost / benefit analisis especially in if expecting to run the lamps into the ground or after a certain amount of time group replace them if that's the case.

    Expect that the above color temperature and output will for the most part match up with each other more than matching up with say a lamp with 100 hours of another type and brand.

    More next compare CRI of the lamps - important index in how true on stage the colors render or not as choice for the purpose of the fixtures in use.

    Given all this, cost / benefit analisis. Probe out your use and your average use, your needs and what's available at what price. Could be the stock standard or new comer or other in the end for you. Each situation will benefit no doubt its own lamp solution and only the end user will be able to figure it out in saving money. No one brand will be best either for any situation. What I buy is not what others should infer.

    Hope it helps as always.

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