A sad state of theatre planning...

[RonHebbard]

So more fun from the Brooklyn Follies

We got confirmation today that for some reason, the architect neglected a key design feature in 2 of the 3 lighting/audio/control booths. namely countertops (2) for the lighting and audio consoles. They designed a nice counter/tabletop unit for the main theater space, but not these 2 other booths. Lot's of associated connection points below where these countertops will reside, track lighting above, but no actual countertops. Easy enough to remedy except the architect and consultant, who remain nameless only due to my own high standards of professionalism, have done their walk thru and punch list and somehow missed this. Next week I am supposed to unpack and check the operation of the 2 remaining Ion consoles, with Barbizon, but have no place to actually place these consoles.

Then the overly large lobby, where they were supposed to install near ceiling level on the overlooking balcony, some horizontal lighting positions so as to potentially light an event in the lobby. It was talked about and they installed 6 - 208v 30A twist receptacles, as well as pass-thru DMX ports for the shoe-box dimmers. The DMX send location is on a wall on the lobby first level with no electrical outlet anywhere near the DMX port, not sure how I'm supposed to power up the console, sending data to non-existent shoe-box dimmers, to lighting equipment they didn't buy, on positions they didn't install. Power and DMX cabling is good to go though.

First show opens in 6 weeks, no certificate of occupancy.

You have to be fuc*ing kidding, frustration level just peaked, yet again.

@SteveB Just a thought for you. When adding / retrofitting counter tops in booths, anchor them to the wall for stability but space them out from the wall 2" to 3" across their full width for a full width cable pass through, either to loop excess cable over the edge and out of sight or to pass connectors down to mate with wall mounted receptacles. A 5/8" x 5/8" full width rigidly attached strip is useful as a backstop to catch the rear feet of consoles and keep them from jamming their connectors against the wall or window.
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

So more fun from the Brooklyn Follies

We got confirmation today that for some reason, the architect neglected a key design feature in 2 of the 3 lighting/audio/control booths. namely countertops (2) for the lighting and audio consoles. They designed a nice counter/tabletop unit for the main theater space, but not these 2 other booths. Lot's of associated connection points below where these countertops will reside, track lighting above, but no actual countertops. Easy enough to remedy except the architect and consultant, who remain nameless only due to my own high standards of professionalism, have done their walk thru and punch list and somehow missed this. Next week I am supposed to unpack and check the operation of the 2 remaining Ion consoles, with Barbizon, but have no place to actually place these consoles.

Then the overly large lobby, where they were supposed to install near ceiling level on the overlooking balcony, some horizontal lighting positions so as to potentially light an event in the lobby. It was talked about and they installed 6 - 208v 30A twist receptacles, as well as pass-thru DMX ports for the shoe-box dimmers. The DMX send location is on a wall on the lobby first level with no electrical outlet anywhere near the DMX port, not sure how I'm supposed to power up the console, sending data to non-existent shoe-box dimmers, to lighting equipment they didn't buy, on positions they didn't install. Power and DMX cabling is good to go though.

First show opens in 6 weeks, no certificate of occupancy.

You have to be fuc*ing kidding, frustration level just peaked, yet again.

Is anything good in your new building?

It does seem like the things noted are not fatal and unable to be solved. Its very rare a new building is "perfect" and that all the equipment and furniture is there on day one.

 

[SteveB]

@SteveB Just a thought for you. When adding / retrofitting counter tops in booths, anchor them to the wall for stability but space them out from the wall 2" to 3" across their full width for a full width cable pass through, either to loop excess cable over the edge and out of sight or to pass connectors down to mate with wall mounted receptacles. A 5/8" x 5/8" full width rigidly attached strip is useful as a backstop to catch the rear feet of consoles and keep them from jamming their connectors against the wall or window.
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

Yeah, that's a nice idea, better than the cable holes.

 

[RonHebbard]

Yeah, that's a nice idea, better than the cable holes.

@SteveB I find two problems with cable holes:
1; They're often in the wrong place / not enough of the them.
2; They occupy / remove counter surface and small parts disappear from view while servicing consoles.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[SteveB]

Is anything good in your new building?

It does seem like the things noted are not fatal and unable to be solved. Its very rare a new building is "perfect" and that all the equipment and furniture is there on day one.

Well some stuff is unfixable.

But, Yes. We have a decent theater that we can work with, some oddities (they took away 15 ft of SL wing space for a useless hallway), maybe enough dimmers, the lighting systems are top of the line ETC, the installer is Barbizon and they are terrific, a nice FOH catwalk design, the audio and AV systems installers are seemingly doing a really really thorough job and getting stuff fixed, there's AV and Ethernet every where so the audio guys are OK.

The music rehearsal space is very nice and will be useful as it gets the orchestra rehearsals off the roadhouse stage, which in turn opens up that space for rentals, so that's good.

The theater rehearsal space is too small to do events (50-60 seats) and got 144 dimmers, so that's a bummer, but so what. We have another black box that looks like it'll get renovated on another project.

Pretty building otherwise and I love new stuff, just extraordinarily frustrating experience with poor or no communication attempting to get obvious issues fixed.

So sorry for the bitc*ing, hard as it's our first "new" building. Other new buildings on our campus during my tenure have turned into such disasters, we were really, really trying to pay attention and stay proactive on this one , just nobody listening.

And if anyone wants to know the architect and consultant on this project, PM me as I can certainly give them a thumbs down.

 

[JohnD]

I wonder if instead of the slot all along the back edge of the counter, how about something like the touring case console device, the doghouse. Build it with no bottom and with a flip up lid and mouse holes on the front. Where the console goes it could be a very wide mouse hole so there is a good place for any connectors that stick out.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Just more on the original topic. Started planning and design in earnest in June for a high school auditorium and stage. One of the first things I tried to get discussed and coordinated was the structural framing, catwalks, and railings. All kinds of loading info and details and examples. Not much traction. A LOT of discussion of 1 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. So come December and its a last check set of everyone's drawings and things are still in the wrong place, closely spaced 1 1/4" rails, and fundamental details of the stage edge that just don't work (for orchestra pit, pit filler, lip speakers, and stage flooring). I could have the walls moved and added a 100 seats with less resistance than getting a pipe rail drawn and labeled as 1 1/4" changed to 1 1/2". Steve's "Brooklyn Follies" just brings it to mind.

Weren't always so but - in my opinion - the change from hand drawing to computers is a major factor. CAD allows anyone to create drawings, but does nothing to promote making good design and planning choices in a timely fashion. If anything, by allowing you to make major changes at the end of design and by being the agent by which a typical 25-50 drawing building is now 500-1000 sheets - like some journeyman is actually going to be able to look at 500-1000 sheets and identify the items needing coordination - I can only be thrilled that my career is coming to an end before long.

Stepping off the soap box before I fall off. No railings on this thing.

 

[darinlwebb]

I'm enjoying this discussion. People keep talking about writing books and articles, but I'd settle for a recorded video chat between a few experienced folks talking about problems in new spaces, and advice for people still in the planning phase.

Ours has the super-deep orchestra pit problem. Fortunately it's motorized, and one of two permanent things our scene shop has built for the space are platforms that allow us to use the pit in a half-lowered position.

The other build was sloped 'lids' for some permanent speakers that sit on stage. TIP: Any flat surface less than 8ft off the ground will become a shelf, most likely for water bottles. Don't let electronics become shelves.

 

[SteveB]

Well when you file for your permits, especially in the City of New York, make sure you fully understand the difference between "cellar" and "basement".

Apparently the NYC Building Dept. took exception to how the project architect labeled our partly finished basement as a "basement" and not a "cellar".

Thus CofO and Temp CofO not getting issued till all filed paperwork gets corrected.

We are now scrambling for a few spaces off campus to do spring the Theater Dept. event, that was scheduled to load in in 2 week.

Sigh.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Well when you file for your permits, especially in the City of New York, make sure you fully understand the difference between "cellar" and "basement".

Apparently the NYC Building Dept. took exception to how the project architect labeled our partly finished basement as a "basement" and not a "cellar".

Thus CofO and Temp CofO not getting issued till all filed paperwork gets corrected.

We are now scrambling for a few spaces off campus to do spring the Theater Dept. event, that was scheduled to load in in 2 week.

Sigh.

I think that is a unique to NYC issue in that the predominate national model building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, and how far, and exactly what grade is. In fact, the term cellar appears only once in the International Building Code, probably a leftover, and is simply used in only one requirement that refers to "basements or cellars", and is otherwise undefined.

 

[microstar]

Well when you file for your permits, especially in the City of New York, make sure you fully understand the difference between "cellar" and "basement".

Apparently the NYC Building Dept. took exception to how the project architect labeled our partly finished basement as a "basement" and not a "cellar".

Thus CofO and Temp CofO not getting issued till all filed paperwork gets corrected.

We are now scrambling for a few spaces off campus to do spring the Theater Dept. event, that was scheduled to load in in 2 week.

Sigh.

I've been involved in the opening of several new theatres, and one of the repeated mistakes seems to be setting the opening date for the inaugural show way too close to when the building is "supposed to be" completed. I understand the pride which the owners have in their new space and how they want to show it off with a tremendous opening show, but how often has a construction project been absolutely on schedule? The last instance I was party to, the owner insisted on having rehearsals in the space because it was a couple of weeks before opening night, and there were lots of frustrated construction people trying to finish the punch list. Not to mention the fire marshal had some issues with various items and threatened to delay the opening.
Even the final testing and checks of the lighting and sound systems were compromised because the owners tech staff were so busy working on the production they didn't have time to watch, learn, and ask questions about all of their new toys. Sometimes people just do it to themselves without anyone helping them.

 

[MNicolai]

I've been involved in the opening of several new theatres, and one of the repeated mistakes seems to be setting the opening date for the inaugural show way too close to when the building is "supposed to be" completed. I understand the pride which the owners have in their new space and how they want to show it off with a tremendous opening show, but how often has a construction project been absolutely on schedule? The last instance I was party to, the owner insisted on having rehearsals in the space because it was a couple of weeks before opening night, and there were lots of frustrated construction people trying to finish the punch list. Not to mention the fire marshal had some issues with various items and threatened to delay the opening.
Even the final testing and checks of the lighting and sound systems were compromised because the owners tech staff were so busy working on the production they didn't have time to watch, learn, and ask questions about all of their new toys. Sometimes people just do it to themselves without anyone helping them.

Everyone works up to the deadline. If you put 2 months of buffer in before the first show, then you're 1) throwing money away from unused time in the building or 2) everyone works up until the the end of the buffer. Usually the latter.

 

[SteveB]

This project has been 8 years of teardown (1 year) and construction (7).

There was a hopeful 2014 date, we missed that. Last spring they were hoping for “Sept., maybe November”. That was actually pretty firm and the 3 GC’s (yes, 3) have been saying since November that “they were done and wanted out”. Then didn’t finish nor check to see if they were finished.

Thus the college, being told it was OK, booked for mid February, ignoring that we told them we needed a month to get the building ready, well OK, maybe a week.

Then the City of NY got involved.

Im not surprised actually and though maybe spring ‘19 was more likely.

 

[Paul Hannah]

I've been working on a project and have not understood the source of so many bad theatre planning and design ideas from the architect and engineers. Then started touring some schools with a reputation for "good" auditorium and stages. Oh my. Explains why the mechanical engineer didn't understand my concerns as the comparable schools all have what I would call a dull roar background noise. You couple that with very dead acoustics - Rt's in the 1 second range where as most projects I work on strive for 1.5 to 1.8 - and its tough to make the case for good design. Orchestra pits that seem a mile deep with 4' high conductor platforms. I could list so many more common shortcomings. Its not budget, its not understanding the basics and priorities. (For some idea, see my article here: https://www.controlbooth.com/resour...lanning-and-designing-high-school-theatres.6/)

There are more auditoriums and stages designed and built for high schools in this country than any other market segment. Maybe more high school than all other segments of the performing arts market combined. And so many suffer from poor planning. We need to figure out how to change this.

Two years ago I walked into a newly built "beautiful" theatre in an independent high school, here in Australia. The school doesn't seem to be short of a quid and the look of it was great. Nice deep and high stage, recycled beams all over the walls. Great set of lights. What it didn't have was all the things an audience either doesn't see or doesn't notice.

No backstage.
No off stage - not even space for tabs.
No control room.
No dressing rooms - this is for a co-ed school.
No toilets in the building.
No provision for lighting bars at even close to the correct angle.
No lock up spaces for tech gear.


But from the outside it is very beautiful.
I honestly think the moron who designed this had either never been to a real theatre or if s/he had, they had only sat in the audience and clapped.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I honestly think the moron who designed this had either never been to a real theatre or if s/he had, they had only sat in the audience and clapped.

Amen to that! I see a lot of plans and buildings where its clear the designers have never been backstage, let alone backstage during a show. "Why do you need all that space to the sides?"

 

[RonHebbard]

I think that is a unique to NYC issue in that the predominate national model building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, and how far, and exactly what grade is. In fact, the term cellar appears only once in the International Building Code, probably a leftover, and is simply used in only one requirement that refers to "basements or cellars", and is otherwise undefined.

@BillConnerFASTC Your comment "building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, how far, and exactly what grade is" Caught my attention. A nearby, multi-venue, repertory theatre embarked upon an expansion and upgrading project to expand their main building located in a park adjacent to a lake. The goal was to add two rehearsal spaces and 1 performance space WITHOUT significantly altering the peaceful, serene, idyllic ambience of the park.
Let me paint the picture:
From within the building, you've got two windowless rehearsal spaces plus a third rehearsal space about 15' higher with clerestory windows along one of its longer side walls. Floor level is constant throughout for ease of moving actors, production staff and equipment between rooms.
From the exterior, you've got a park next to a lake with the top of one rehearsal room sitting there above grade amongst the trees to accommodate the row of clerestory windows.
Further comments and points to ponder:
Two rooms are totally below grade with grass, trees, picnickers and and denizens of the park above them. Imagine how surprised a burrowing critter must be to find two rehearsal rooms a few feet below his serene neighborhood. Tree roots are likely caught a little off guard as well.
On the plus side: Two of the three spaces provide phenomenal black outs 24 / 7 / 365.
On the "interesting" points to ponder list:
All conduits fill with water. We'd blow and vacuum them out then immediately pull wiring in as fast as we could in a race to beat the water. A provincial park about 40 miles down the highway where one of our largest cities abuts a lake has the same situation to contend with. In the case of our three rehearsal rooms, we installed TMB's best tactical category cable and hoped for the best.
Back to @BillConnerFASTC 's comment: "building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, how far, and exactly what grade is"
During construction, everyone referred to the spaces as:
The small rehearsal room, the large rehearsal room and the theatre.
A rehearsal room with a high ceiling, overhead lighting positions, a storage room accommodating rows of removable seating for "observers", a lobby, bar, coat-check, public washrooms, and daylight streaming in through a row of clerestory windows looked like a theatre to most of us.
From the architect's perspective:
EVERY TIME the architect visited, he kept chastising and correcting anyone and everyone who referred to the largest space as "the theatre" insisting it was merely the large rehearsal hall and definitely NOT a "theatre". Seemingly the terminology had huge impacts from the POV of codes, acceptable variances, and the costs to meet them. Some trades were annoyed by the architect and his insistence on "precise terminology". Our guys fell into overly emphasized, tongue in cheek, precision whenever conversing face to face with the architect and it soon became a polite game of "after you Alphonse"
Bottom line: @BillConnerFASTC raises an important point and I applaud him for doing so.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[SteveB]

I mean seriously, you couldn't find the same screws to install the button upside down ?.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

@BillConnerFASTC Your comment "building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, how far, and exactly what grade is" Caught my attention. A nearby, multi-venue, repertory theatre embarked upon an expansion and upgrading project to expand their main building located in a park adjacent to a lake. The goal was to add two rehearsal spaces and 1 performance space WITHOUT significantly altering the peaceful, serene, idyllic ambience of the park.
Let me paint the picture:
From within the building, you've got two windowless rehearsal spaces plus a third rehearsal space about 15' higher with clerestory windows along one of its longer side walls. Floor level is constant throughout for ease of moving actors, production staff and equipment between rooms.
From the exterior, you've got a park next to a lake with the top of one rehearsal room sitting there above grade amongst the trees to accommodate the row of clerestory windows.
Further comments and points to ponder:
Two rooms are totally below grade with grass, trees, picnickers and and denizens of the park above them. Imagine how surprised a burrowing critter must be to find two rehearsal rooms a few feet below his serene neighborhood. Tree roots are likely caught a little off guard as well.
On the plus side: Two of the three spaces provide phenomenal black outs 24 / 7 / 365.
On the "interesting" points to ponder list:
All conduits fill with water. We'd blow and vacuum them out then immediately pull wiring in as fast as we could in a race to beat the water. A provincial park about 40 miles down the highway where one of our largest cities abuts a lake has the same situation to contend with. In the case of our three rehearsal rooms, we installed TMB's best tactical category cable and hoped for the best.
Back to @BillConnerFASTC 's comment: "building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, how far, and exactly what grade is"
During construction, everyone referred to the spaces as:
The small rehearsal room, the large rehearsal room and the theatre.
A rehearsal room with a high ceiling, overhead lighting positions, a storage room accommodating rows of removable seating for "observers", a lobby, bar, coat-check, public washrooms, and daylight streaming in through a row of clerestory windows looked like a theatre to most of us.
From the architect's perspective:
EVERY TIME the architect visited, he kept chastising and correcting anyone and everyone who referred to the largest space as "the theatre" insisting it was merely the large rehearsal hall and definitely NOT a "theatre". Seemingly the terminology had huge impacts from the POV of codes, acceptable variances, and the costs to meet them. Some trades were annoyed by the architect and his insistence on "precise terminology". Our guys fell into overly emphasized, tongue in cheek, precision whenever conversing face to face with the architect and it soon became a polite game of "after you Alphonse"
Bottom line: @BillConnerFASTC raises an important point and I applaud him for doing so.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

Some of the terminology in the codes has improved. Much less of categorizing it by semantics and then not including the proper safety as use to be almost routine; more if its this big then you need this feature because of the potential fuel load. No more trying to defend it as a platform instead of a stage. If you can have a lot of scenery spread around, its a stage. And it you can hang many layers of it high, its needs even more. See attached file. (Maybe someone will put this in resources for posterity.) I'm hoping to see this evolve further and reduce some requirements because of LED lighting. When lighting on stages was open flames and open arcs, the average life of a theatre was around 5 years before it burned down. The electric light bulb changed that dramatically but still that hot incandescent light seems to be the predominant source of ignition. LEDs are not nearly as hot. Of course any relaxation for LEDs only would have to stipulate no pyro, the more recently introduced ignition source.

 

[RickR]

I saw this yesterday. It operates a stage lip light tube of tiny lamps.

Anyone know the difference between Trivoli and Tivoli?

 

[RonHebbard]

I saw this yesterday. It operates a stage lip light tube of tiny lamps.

View attachment 15948
Anyone know the difference between Trivoli and Tivoli?

@RickR Send us your easy ones. "Tri" obviously refers to three phase while "Tivoli" is "I lov it" backwards. C'mon Rick, get with the program. Even us blind old geezers comprehend the obvious. (Snark / Sarcasm, et al)
Edit: I'm sure @TimMc will have an answer for you shortly.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard