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Conventional Fixtures Alternatives to Patt 23 ????

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by plato888, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. plato888

    plato888 Member

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    Hi guys

    Im wondering if any of you worked with, or know about any profile spots which were manufactured between 1960 and 1980, other than the Patt 23 ?

    Im doing a project about the P23 and am really struggling to find any products which would have competed against the P23 during that period.

    Any pointers would be gratefully received, even just the names of the lights which I could then google for more info !!

    many thanks

    Simon
     
  2. seanandkate

    seanandkate Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    Occupation:
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    If you can get your hands on a copy of "Photmetrics Handbook" by Robert C. Mumm, it's got a number of fixtures -- too many to list here. Here's a few to get you started though:
    Altman 3.5 Q5 & Q6, Berkey 212-002 (or 005, 006 or oo7 depending on connector), Century Lighting 1215 or 2115 (post 1970), Times Square Lighting Q3W.

    Good luck on the project Simon!
     
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  3. DAE

    DAE Member

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    Location:
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    Have a look at The Strand Archive Lantern Index
    the Patt23 was rebadged in many formats including the Patt823 and Minim 23.

    CCT UK CCT Lighting had a 500/650 profile

    Selecon NZ Selecon Lighting had an almost identical copy of the CCT

    Prolight Australia PROLITE Creative Lighting Home Page had an 8 sided 500/650 profile

    Barton Lighting Australia Barton, Edward Gustavus Campbell (1857 - 1942) Biographical Entry - Australian Dictionary of Biography Online did some theatre lighting

    The Blue Room UK Blue Room technical forum (Powered by Invision Power Board) has postings about Furse, a UK company that copied the Patt23, do a search for articles

    Hope that helps a bit.
     
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  4. church

    church Active Member

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    Not only did Furse have a profile that competed against the Patt 23 at one time they actually bought Patt 23 castings from Strand and placed their own nameplate on them - you can find a picture of this in the Julius Media magazine archives.

    The Furse equipment was sold as a cheaper competitor to the Strand product to schools in the U.K., Australia and New Zealand. They were made out of spun steel with a larger lens, the hosuing was painted blue. It used the same T1 incandescent lamp in a P28 lampholder. There was a holder for a gobo holder and you could also get an iris. They come up on ebay from time to time. They have a more rounded shape than the patt 23 and are physically larger. We had the Furse product, the patt 23s and the earlier strand 500W PC lanterns at school.

    The great advantage of the patt23 was you could buy the 23W version which came with two identical lenses fitted that gave a light spread of 3.5m diameter at a 4.5m throw - great for on a school stage with no height, you could pop out the inner lens and then you got a fixture that had a throw of 8.5m and then you could buy the 23N lens tube (15 degree tube) and get a 15.5m throw. You could also add an iris and the rear handle and get a useful follow spot. No one else had anything remotely close to this on the market in the pre 1982 days. They were also rugged.

    In the sixties and seventies other than Furse the patt 23s were displacing PC lanterns from and earlier generation made by Strand and Major. In the UK there was no other competition. They were the S4 of their day.

    The light output from the Furse product was about the same as the Patt 23 but they suffered from tilt lock mechanisims that came loose after a couple of shows. In a school this was a disaster as the typical policy was to fit and forget with no maintenance. The PC lanterns used horrible lamps with screw in basis - whose primary capability was to project an image of the filament onto the stage. They also had no shutters.
     
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  5. plato888

    plato888 Member

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    Church, DAE and Sean............

    what can I say guys, you've all been so amazingly helpful I couldn't have dreamt of such in-depth help. If I get a first for my project there'll def be some beerage heading your way.....

    thankyou so much

    Simon
     
  6. dimwatt

    dimwatt Member

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    A few of us are still using Patt 23s (and you see them changing hands all the time on ebay), and the Patt 123 (Fresnel) is very widely used. Even with a T1 bubble (Phillips 559c or similar - non-halogen) they put out a reasonable light.

    The superior halogen T17/T24 lamp has helped increase the longevity of the P.23 giving a much more reliable light source.

    A few years ago a number of P.23 and P.123 had the bases upgraded from the P28s to a more up to date GY9.5 base to accept T18/T25 halogen lamps. However for most current users the cost of this upgrade is not worth it due to the relatively small difference in price between the T17 (P28s 500w/240v) and the cheaper T18 (GY9.5 500w/240v).

    But that doesn't really help you with the original question about contemporary competing products of the Patt.23. The only comparable instrument from that time that is still being used in the UK is the Furse, as described above.

    I started using the Strand lanterns at school in the late 1970s and whilst the optics aren't as good as many newer instruments, I have never felt the need to risk trying anything else from that era. The P.23 is small, light, simple to use, bullet-proof and is very cheap to own.
     

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  7. siank8

    siank8 Member

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    do you know much about the T1 light bulb? or its upgrade the T17. im just trying to fina any info in them but im coming up short. i guess all there is to know is what kind of non halogen light it was? was it an incandescent or a gas filled?
     
  8. dimwatt

    dimwatt Member

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    What do you want to know? The T1 is a 500W 240V incandescent lamp with a P28s base. The T1 is hard to find, although they occasionally turn up on ebay. As far as I am aware no one has manufactured them for several years. I'm still using a few of them, but replace them with T17 which uses the same base/cap and is widely available.

    T1:

    [​IMG]

    T17:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. church

    church Active Member

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    I hve a still working 115v 250W version of the T1 that I keep for sentimental reasons. The light output is despicablein the 115v version and in the 240V version the 250W lamp was not much better han a regular 200W bayonent cap domestic lamp bulb. One issue with lamps of this era was the life was very short. If memory serves the T1 only lasted for 150 hours and they had to be burn't base down and they had to be used within a limited angle otherwise the life time was dreadfully short. A friend of mine once hung a patt 23 upside down with a new lamp in it. The lamp lasted 15 minutes. He was immeadiately moved to a new role and given a very colourful name.

    here in 115V land on the Canada/U.S. side of the Atlantic we now have a BTH 575W lamp that gives 15000 lumens which really helps the good old Patt 23 push out very useful light at a colour temperature of 3250K
     
  10. David Ashton

    David Ashton Active Member

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    Occupation:
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    I take exception to

    "A few years ago a number of P.23 and P.123 had the bases upgraded from the P28s to a more up to date GY9.5 base to accept T18/T25 halogen lamps. However for most current users the cost of this upgrade is not worth it due to the relatively small difference in price between the T17 (P28s 500w/240v) and the cheaper T18 (GY9.5 500w/240v)."

    Changing the base is a downgrade, the T18 is about 13% cheaper but has a 400 hour life, although I seldom seem to get that, whereas the T17 has a 750 hour life, so the effective cost of the "new" T18 is close to double the "old" T17.
    Plus the fact that a P28 base will last for decades while the GY 9.5 base is not very long lived.
    I must declare a bias here as I make and sell a direct replacement P28 base, but at $20 Aus, about $16 US, they are no dearer than the "upgrade", in fact I have seen "upgrade kits" over $60.
    In a similar vein the 1200 watt T29 is a very expensive alternative to the 1000 watt T19, not only is it 30% dearer but also has a 400 hour life as opposed to the 750 hour T19, so it is effectively twice the cost.
    The main point is to bear in mind lamp life as well as output and cost/hour.
     
  11. Limeburner

    Limeburner Member

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    Location:
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    We do sell the C-Block adaptor to allow your P23 or P123 to take the 650w common bi pin lamps which are usually at least half the price of T17 lamps. The C-Block usually pays for itself after only a couple of lamp changes. We are lighting designers and found in some instances there is nothing to replace a P23 squeezed into a low headroom application. We had these made a couple of years ago and the response was pretty amazing. So far we have sold over 1,000 of them around the world so these little spot lights are not forgotten. Go to C-Block for details.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2012
  12. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Very good posts in concepts and in rarity of components very good overal rading and fair game I think given rarity.

    Me.. in U.S. born and never expeienced such a fixture, I can only read in books how much it is like my love for the Altman 3.5Q5 Leko, but isn't the same. To the above contribuiters in the US, it's not the same animal from what I gather. Want one bad but in museum end result and not designing with it, could never do such a fixture a proper comparison.

    I suspect it's a unless once you design with one, you will never understand type of thing. Fascinating fixture that from what I understand isn't like anything we have ever really seen to compare to.
     
  13. church

    church Active Member

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    Here in Canada the Patt 23 was used - I have eight of them still in inventory, two in the short throw 23W version, four in the 23 regular version one in the 23N version and one 23 fitted with the 23N lens tube. I also have a second 23N lens tube. They work okay with a BTL lamp and the performance is significantly improved with a BTH lamp. Sadly it is hard to find examples in good condition although they are easy to renovate. I still use mine as they are still useful, especially in small locations. The 23Ns are often used to pick-up a mirror ball. The original 23n will accept a S4 junior iris and can be used as a small follow spot, handy in a small space, it came with a rear handle for this purpose and the yoke is mounted at the balance point. The optics suffer from the two cut outs one of which is to clear the lampholder the other is simply I guess to allow you to rotate the reflectors. The result of this design feature is that if you look closely at the light pool on a white wall you will see two slightly dimmer areas on the edge 180 degrees apart. I stuck some shiny aluminium foil across the cut-out and it reduced this to a minimum.

    Think of these as the S4 of their day - begining of the 1960s and an important piece of lighting history.
     

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