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Conventional Fixtures Altman 1KL6 parts

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Les, Nov 4, 2007.

  1. Les

    Les Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so I know we generally hate these fixtures, and they have long been discontinued by Altman, but does anyone know where I can find framing shutters for these units? I was recently given 2 of the 1kl 20 degree fixtures and neither of them have any at all. I could get a few more (still no shutters) but I'm reluctant to because they don't have the lamp sockets or mounting plate assemblies. I thought they would be too hard to find so I left them behind. Good idea or should I get them anyway?? I powered up one of the one's I have and it was definitely better than nothing! Not a bad beam of light coming out, just very heavy and cumbersome. Still not complaining about free stuff though!

    Other than that I guess you could say I hit the jackpot because I was also given 2 15/32 Strand SL Zooms, 2 50 degree SL's, 1 36 degree SL, and 1 26 degree SL. If you read some of my last posts you will see that I am not the biggest Strand SL fan, but since they were free and hardly used I am not complaining!!! He (the tech director of the theatre) didn't want them because they didn't stock the lamps, only HPL's.
    I also took with me 5 Altman 6x12's without lamp cap assemblies (but fairly new units), 4 Altman 6x9's that need new bases, 11 6" 65Q Fresnel's that just need to be painted, and 3 perfectly good 16" scoops.


    I think I might try and get rid of my 4 Kliegls (or century, or whatever-they-are's) now...
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
  2. DarSax

    DarSax Active Member

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    Okay I really have no idea if this is possible, but if you can't find any, is there any chance you can fabricate any from sheet metal?
     
  3. Les

    Les Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about that a few seconds ago. It would probably just take some stainless steel and Altman 360Q finger grips. It probably wouldn't be a hard thing for a machine shop to do. If I can't find any, I may cut some mock-ups out of cardboard and see if I can get a template for them. (With the light OFF of course!!!)
    Thanks for the reply!
     
  4. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    I'm swimming in 1KL6s.

    I'm not sure if I have extra shutters though. A lot of mine are even missing shutters.

    Even if I were to have shutters, they'd be so beat up.

    The closest thing I can guarantee is that if we get a huge donation for new lights, I'll personally drive to Texas, drop off the lights, and drive away, not looking back (though you're supposed to check your rear-view mirror ever 20 or so seconds. :twisted:).

    P.S.
    Why don't you send some of those lights my way? Hehe?

    P.P.S.
    I actually spoke with the TD of another Friend's school. I saw a show there Friday night. Anyways, boy, do THEY need new lights / lighting positions.

    They own 2 S4s, and like a dozen or two 360Qs (older version too), 4 or scoops, and that's about it.

    HOWEVER! I saw their post on the "Philadelphia Theatre Alliance Listserv"............... (this many "..."s are necessary)

    I can NOT feel bad for them. :!:

    They paid $1,000 for an LD to come in and light their show.

    I looked in at their little operation. They rented in about a dozen wireless mics and receivers. I know now they must have rented in gear for the show I saw there last year: S4s, PAR64s w/ scrollers, moving head instruments, plus, an expensive LD.

    Why are they paying that much money on an LD? What happened to student generated content? Okay, let's say you don't have any students into lighting... you're the TD, light it yourself! Why do you need to pay an LD that much to come in, create two color shifts (double hung) and add foliage breakups gobos coming from S.R. to S.L.? Oh, I'm sorry, he DID have downspots from the 1st electric. Oh, and an I-Cue. Hell, I have an I-Cue too. He only used his as a "followspot" though. He didn't use it in any cue besides a "followspot cue". Here is my main gripe with all his I-Cue business. He coulda have used it to help light the stage. It was only used as a "followspot". Okay, they have two followspots. With shallow angles, yes. They don't look so great, but it brings a student or two back into it. Also, he expects high school kids to find their light, and move with it everytime? The actors, and I-Cue were hardly in coordination, and it looked bad. And for all his $1,000 he missed a couple I-Cue moves. By which I mean, instead of having it move-in-black, it moved in a color shift, or other transition, where it stuck out like a sore thumb. I highly doubt it was an intentional movement.

    </rant>
     
  5. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Again Charc, while I agree with you on principal, I would caution you to refrain from so vociferously attacking the methods or output of another theatre.

    1) Financial compensation arrangements vary greatly. Perhaps the LD they paid $1000 for this show got them all that extra equipment for free last year?

    2) You may be working for this theatre, LD, or someone associated with it one day (or at least apply).

    A favorite producer used to say in his curtain speeches "If you like the show, tell your friends. If you don't, shut up and let them find out for themselves."
    Not trying to stifle free and open discussion here, but just attempting to help you see there may have been factors of which you're not aware. Just more of my "free and unsolicited fatherly advice." Do with it what you will.:)
     
  6. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    Haha, again, Derek comes in with wisdom.

    I guess my (emotional) rant was on what I see as a misappropriation of funds. Given the wording of the job opportunity, and my brief chat with the TD, my understanding is they get a new LD every-year, it's just whomever answers the ad. The LD takes a look at their facilities, their gear, watches a few rehearsals, and makes a (What do you call these things?) Rent List.

    I get your point about making friends and not enemies. I know I won't be working for the theatre (as it's another school), probably not the TD (as he is an educator), but perhaps the LD. I wasn't really personally attacking anyone. Merely calling into question the TD's approach to teaching his students and running his facility.
     
  7. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    I believe the term that eludes you is "Shop Order." At least that what it says in my brand new (to me) copy of A Practical Guide to Stage Lighting, by Steven Louis Shelley. Focal Press, 1999.
     
  8. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    I would contact Altman directly for if they have any replacement shutters that would be of the same type just different model type such as the 6-30 style.

    If they don't, in my observation it's fairly rare that replacement shutters for such fixtures are ever really needed. Can they be cleaned up if not re-surfaced? Do a search on the website for resurfacing shutters. Otherwise if trashed and not available, your local welding shop should sufficiently be able to reproduce a stainless steel version of these shutters without a problem given a plasma or water cutter. Won't be cheap but should last for years.

    Good luck but my theory is the shutters most likely on the fixture can be saved to the extent you will use them in the future given the extent of other fixtures available.
     
  9. Les

    Les Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Ship! My problem is that my lights came without any shutters installed, so I'll be starting from scratch. But I'll call Altman and see what they suggest. I'm sure there is a light out there that uses a similar shutter blade.
    On another note, I was surprised to see the condition of the shutters in the 360Q's I was just given. These must have been some seriously misused instruments. Because while 3 shutters may look fine and repairable, the adjacent shutter has a hole burned right through the middle of it! More than one light is like this! Someone needs to learn how to properly focus/shutter/bench ellipsoidals! My concern is that now they have new Source Fours to destroy :[

    On another note, I just opened up one of my zooms to find that the reflector is cracked in half. Still looks usable, with no huge gap, but sucks none the less. Another fixture has a hairline crack down one side.

    Oh well, at least it was free. I won't let that rain on my parade.
     
  10. kovacika

    kovacika Active Member

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    i know of at least two rental houses that make there own shutters for lights in a small metal shop. i cant imagine it would be all that hard given the proper equipment. Whether you have access to the equipment or the money to pay someone who does may be where you run into issues.
     
  11. church

    church Active Member

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    I make my own replacement shutters. I have used both stainless, brass and at a push an aluminium baking tray from a thrift shop. Mark out the shutter shape with a permament marker pen. Then I use my $25 pair of air shears and cut round the line. The air shears are just like using really sharp scissors on thick paper, easy to control, clean cut and it doesn't distort the metal. Here in Canada I bought mine at Princess Auto but in the US you can get them at Harbor freight or Pep boys. A plasma cutter would make more work as you have to clean the edge. Hand tin snips distort the metal unless they are really sharp. The thickness of the shutters varies from fixture to fixture, the thickest I have made are 20 guage.

    For the handles you can drill a hole and attach the habndle from the old shutter with a pop rivet. I have also just used heat shrink over fibreglass sleeving. With the air shears you can cut out a shutter in about 30 seconds.

    BTW the time I used brass and aluminium was because I had run out of stailess and the Metal Supermarket was shut. So far they have lasted 2 years
     
  12. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    You should be able to get new reflectors for the SLs for about $30-$40 each. Though it will probably work, you might be happier with a not cracked reflector.
     
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Fiberglass sleeving under heat shrink is a fascinating concept and might be brilliant. What type of adhesive do you use to keep it in place? Curious in fascinated with the concept.

    One note about drilling the shutter handles otherwise with stainless steel - really tough to drill. Just bought special drill bits for doing so but have doubts about drill bit life. Big problems there and with spring steel. Best off I think having someone plasma cut your shutters and than drill the holes for the rivets.

    Still, I’m thinking this blade shape is not totally gone. Good luck.
     
  14. church

    church Active Member

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    I have done this two ways, the first is with regular heat shrink where I just file an indent to one edge of the shutter handle so that the heat shrink has something to grip. The other method I prefer is to use the heatshrink tube with the glue on the inside. This glue is heat activated but it needs a relatively high temperature to melt - provided by a heat gun. The temp needed to melt the glue is around 150 centigrade which is hotter than the shutters get in use. Again I make a slight indentation on one edge with a file - three or four strokes. I cut the heat shrink longer than the fibreglass tube so that the heatshrink glues itself to the metal at one end. At the other end I leave the heat shrink longer than the shutter arm and squeeze the heatshrink tube together so it glues to itself.

    There is another method that takes slightly longer but it also works and looks more original. get a 1 inch hole saw and drill out a hole in 1/4 hardboard. Pull the circle of hardboard out of the hole saw and paint it with barbecue paint. Then rivet the hardboard circle to the shutter arm with a large pop rivet.

    All three approaches have worked for me. Hope this helps
     
  15. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Good concepts for theory, love learning innovations and extrapolating from them.

    On the latter hard bard - tempored hardboard hopefully, not quite the same material but very similar especially if you can find 1/8" hardboard (used to be called Masonite as a trade term.) The hole saw with 1/4" centering guide bit would be problematic for the hole saw in working with the common to shutter 5/32" hole for a rivet but should work especially given the surface treatment of HT paint. As long as a jigged drill press, one could set it up to cut hard board for this purpose still and once treated it could work theoretically as a great idea - this without needing the centering 1/4" bit.

    Brings up to mind a concept I do for USS sized ½" fiber washers we use at work between the clamp and yoke so as to prevent over tension sufficient that one can adjust in swivel of the fixture without needing to worry about the Jesus bolt. 1/16" thick and this washer installed between clamp and yoke does the trick. One would think as a proper fiber washer or as bought as sheet on the drill press jig above it could work well in making your own. This given otherwise one could have a industrial supplier make this fiber washer / handle make it for you. In my case I have a semi-local to our area Fastenal custom cut such washers for us and they would also for such fixtures given the specs of what I was looking for. This granted I order like 1,000 at a time of that washer thus it’s cost effective to make them. Other sources such as McMaster and Small Parts, Inc. Might be able to custom cut such washers. Still the ones pre-made and available thru Altman are not that expensive. They switched to a high temperature plastic long since which will also work. Use a aluminum shank/aluminum rivet to fasten or use of a steel rivet will rip thru the shutter handle no matter the material.

    Adhesive lined heat shrink uses for all intensive purposes hot glue as the adhesive. Not so high a temperature and surprising it works well, but perhaps after burn in it stops being pliable in not reactivating itself. I expect that’s the condition in the adhesive lined heat shrink not being cool enough that it does not keep shrinking or the adhesive not becoming active again, instead it’s the reverse of that temperature - past where it’s pliable on the adhesive side and more just melted into the shutter. The adhesive on the other hand at its maximum shrink - possibly a 20mm size 2:1 size that cannot shrink more yet is still cool enough that it won’t melt.

    Was more interested by your mention of heat shrink above fiberglass sleeving for this application. That and what ever other supplemental glue were added to keep from siding beyond the notches. Perhaps as a concept some J.B. Weld to glue fiberglass to shutter and as stated and given the fiberglass heat sink, the adhesive lined shrink tubing as the top layer. Still fascinating in technique and concept. Thanks.

     
  16. church

    church Active Member

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    The other method of holding the tape and heatshrink in place if you don't want to rely on mechanical force from the heatshrink or the glue in the heatshrink is to use Red RTV (Silicone). I haven't used it in this application but I have used it in other situations on lights, engines and at work. This is the stuff that you buy in the tube for sealing engine gaskets. It is rated for high temperatures.

    In my day job we have extensive experience of using this in the space industry at temperatures above 200 centigrade and we have subjected this to extensive vacuum, vibration, shock and electrical testing. It survives launch into orbit and lifetimes in excess of 20 years without any problems. We don't buy it from autozone or the Canadian equivalent but it comes from the same manufacturers, we pay a lot more because we want lots of paperwork to prove that it is the correct material we also visit the suppliers and audit their manufacturing processes and production lines so we have lots of visibility of how materials are manufactured.

    I have used this for a number of repairs where I want to stake wires in place so they don't move and they are exposed to the heat in a fixture. This will also work on the shutter handles.

    I normally just use the heat shrink because I can buy both the glued and unglued versions with a CSA electrical code approval for at least a 105 centigrade and 300V and I don't have to wait for the RTV to cure.

    I have measured the shutter temperatures with a thermocouple on my DMM and the handle temperature on colortran 5/50s and CCT zooms using an FEL lamp does not exceed this. I also know there is significant margin in the certified temperature so I do not need to worry about the heatshrink or glue melting.

    I use a pillar drill for making all my holes in shutters for stainless I prefer cobalt drills because of the hardness of the stainless. As always with thin material care is required and the material should be drilled from both sides and I will drill the hole out in increasing sizes using a slow spindle speed.

    Re the quarter inch hole on hole saws the Canadian tire here sells a kit that has two diameter drill sizes for the centre hole. The saws for the smaller diameter hole use a smaller diameter drill.

    Hope this helps.
     
  17. Charc

    Charc Well-Known Member

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    The 1KL6, making my life a PITA, one day at a time:

    TP-220

    Special order form Production Advantage, apparently.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2008
  18. averyfrix

    averyfrix Member

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    OOOO
    Thats why you stick with ETC!
     
  19. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Finally got to searching the manual on this question today. Yep, discontinued since at least 1998. I have a few of them in stock but sorry they are reserved perspectively for my own fixtures of this type I'm yet to work on if they need them - for the moment at least and it's not in the near future I'll get to work on them.

    Still, if of use, send me your e-mail address and I'll photo-copy PDF you the size and shape of them. Should be enough to have them made as long as its leading edge can be refined sufficiently.
     
  20. Les

    Les Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Ship! I'll PM you my email address. Tried to test one the other day but could not get it to work. Which is funny, it worked the first time I plugged it in with no flickers, arcing noises or anything. Lamp was known to be good, but I'll look at the base and connector more closely when I get them back out again. Really, I'd just like to get them into good enough shape for resale at a reasonable price as I don't know how else to get rid of them and refuse to thrown even a 1kl away. Something tells me a 1kl with no shutters and possibly bad lamp base wouldn't bring much in so I'll see if I can get it worked out.

    averyfrix, ETC sockets wear out from time to time too.

    If we could all spec our own fixtures we probably wouldn't have 1kl's to begin with, but alas, life happens and we are all stronger designers as a result. Literally.
     

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