Altman 360Q burning thru gel

zac850

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Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Location
New York
Hey guys,
I am designing a show up at a community theater near me, and they have a few Altman 360Q's, 4.5 x 6. One of these is a top-light position with G841 (a dark blue). During focus, in-between me turning the fixture on to 75% and walking to the fixture, there was a nice 1 to 2 cm hole burned in the center of the gel. It couldn't have taken more then 30 seconds to a minuet.

When I pulled the color, the unit looked that it was benched correctly. I put some R119 frost behind the gel, and the frost melted to the gel, but it hasn't burned thru yet.

Is this a problem with the fixture? It looks like most of the light runs thru a 2 cm circle at the center of the gel, so is it not uncommon for this to happen?

I do not have much experience with the Altman 360Q, using mostly only Source 4's.

It should be lamped with a 575 watt lamp (i haven't checked, and i'm not 100% sure about what lamp it is).
 

Foxinabox10

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May 1, 2004
Location
Boston, MA
The lamp is the first place that I would look.
 

wolf825

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Apr 7, 2003
Location
Eastcoast USA
I would say check the lamp for correct wattage is a good thing as well... A EHD 500watt or EHG 750-or some of the FLK 575's shoulld work fine. Depending on the base and reflector/lense depends on if it can take the FEL 1K I believe--Ship is the expert on the lamp choices and will probably chime in here to help further. However the problem primarily sounds like it is with the bench focus... Adjust the field to be a little flatter... It sounds like the focal point of the light is crossing and centering at the gel frame area.. On the back of the older fixture caps there are 3 recessed flat-head screws for adjusting the focus along with a long thin flat head screw in the very center, usually with a few nuts for locking, for locking lamp base allignment in and out of the reflector... On the newer speedcaps--the bench adjust is two big resin knobs similar to the S-4's on their caps--an inner and outer dial/ring and knob. I would suggest you make adjustments to the bench to fix this problem by flattening the field to reduce the hotspot in the center... Also--there is Heat Shield which is available...however it will do the same thing as the frost did... The only other suggestion I could make is to use a "Top-Hat" lense tube extendor and put the gel on the end of the top hat...

-w
 

ship

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Mar 29, 2003
Location
Illinois
Wolf described it well enough for what I would also think. FEL lamps - bad Karma.

A top hat such as for a 6" Fresnel will have a gel frame slot in it thus if using a deep satuated gel and nothing else solves the problem - especially bench focus and going for perhaps a little softer focus and running the lens train to it's opposing position, I might use some heat shield in the same slot as the barn door, than my gel in the slot to the barn door.

Could also go with a little less saturated gel if planning to dim it. Anything 575w and under should not not melt thru that fast however. For 750w I might flood the focus a little more. This all after the bench focus is assured.

Could also be dirty lenses and gel. Could also change brands of gel though it's doubtful that one will be better than another.
 

zac850

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Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Location
New York
This is new gel, fresh cut, so I doubt its the gel.

When I pulled the color and sharpened the focus, the beam looked near perfect with no obvious hot spots, so I think the bench focus is OK.

For what I use it for, the fixture is on for maybe 10 minutes total at a level of 30%.

It could be that the lenses are dirty. These fixtures are ancient and I don't think they have been cleaned in a long, long time.

I may be able to dig up a lens tube extender. I have a strange feeling I ran across some in a corner of the theater with what looks like, at a glance, a few 1K fresnels and some extra barn doors.
 

Radman

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Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Location
Franklin, TN
The bas for those fixtures do accept an FEL I believe, so check the lamp. Again, with that small a fixture thats that much closer the gel is to the lamp. This plus an FEL an I wouldn't be surprised with the results you described.
 

propmonkey

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Jul 22, 2004
Location
Milwaukee, WI
for dark gels i usually put a few tiny holes in the center or if its a larger gel like for a cyc i cut 2 little 1" vents in it.
 

SteveB

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Mar 20, 2004
Location
Brooklyn, NY
My gut feeling is the lamp is not an FEL. It was common to see FEL's in 6x22', 6x16's and 6x12's, more rarely in a 6x9, unusual in a 4.5 as it would also fry the lens, though anything's possible as the fixture will take an FEL (not rated though).

If there's no obvious hot spot in the beam, then it's simply an issue of wrong gel choice for the fixture.

One solution if you don't have a color frame extender (top hat with a gel frame slot on the end), would be to put in a top hat anyway and tape the gel to the top hat. Somewhat defeats the purpose of a 4.5 as the TH cuts the beam spread.

No great choices, I'm afraid.

SB
 

Lightingguy32

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Joined
May 2, 2006
Location
New York
Unfoutanetly, Ship has probably mentioned this, but FEL lamps are not to be used in 360Qs safely becuase even the older models are only rated up to a 750 Watt EHG/EHF, other wise if the fixture was benched correctly then the lamp is deffinetly the first place to trouble shoot
 

ship

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Mar 29, 2003
Location
Illinois
I made a mistake on the Tophat idea - though you can tape a gel to the front. It's Fresnel barn doors that act as a gel extender by way of gapping from the gel frame slot the gel a little further away from the fixture.

Saturated gel is always a problem no matter at times the wattage over say or including 750w. An idea was expressed with punching holes in it or a pounce wheel as normal has in the past been advised along with the idea of heat shield. Comes down to it, neither work for me but they do for others. Pounce wheel is a sewing thing that as long as not too ambitious allows heat to get out before the gel melts. heat shield needs to be spaced away from the gel so use of it in the gel frame slot along with the barn door with the gel in the barn door's gel frame slot would solve the problem. Gel frame extenders Iwould think a more rarity.


Could be a bench focus problem or a lamp problem. Could also be a gel problem. Different gels react differently. Also if a heavy oil based fog or haze show, such oil deposits on the gel tend to retain heat. This along with dirt and or oil left on a lens that thus further becomes a heat source.

Lots of problems and techniques, no answers yet. Do your best to solve the problem and problem solve than report back what was the problem and solution. Could also just be lower saturation gel with less intensity on the dimmers.
 

ship

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Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Location
Illinois
as another option if you don't have a gel extender , top hats and heat shield and or heat shield and have extra frames.

Could use the geal frame brad holes in the gel frames and make a gel extender that slips into the gel frame slot on the fixture.

Gel frame 1 in the gel frame slot with or without heat shield. Than with say two 10-24 or 10-32 screws 1" to 2" in length and six nuts, you bolt one frame to another in making the second frame with your gel gapped from the first frame in the gel frame slot.

Than use some black wrap, gaffers tape (which would become gooey) and or soem Black Tak tape to pick up the light spill between the two frames. Should work fine in getting the gel out of the focus/convergence.
 

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