Altman Phoenix LED

[JVTD]

Hey guys, so I am looking at purchasing some of these fixtures. The dealer in my area is doing a trade in deal where I can give them an old Altman ellipsoidal and they will give a $200 discount on the new fixture. With that being said are there any problems with these fixtures. I'd like to hear from people that use them regularly. Also does anyone know how they compare to the Source 4 LED? I havn't found a direct comparison. I'm also curious as to the Diode life expectancy, Altman's website did not provide this info.

FYI: I love ETC but this fixture in conjunction with the discount/trade deal seems to be the best quality in this price range.

 

[cbrandt]

I have demoed the Phoenix LED a couple of times. All in all, I was very impressed by the power vs. cost. That being said, I've only had my hands on the 150w 3000 K fixture. Consider purchasing them with no lens tube, and sourcing ETC lens tubes. They make a 10-20% increase in output, and a noticeable increase in your sharp edge.

All in all, I was very impressed with the Phoenix. It looked sturdy, had a nice output and even field, and was easy to work with. I haven't had a chance to install one yet, so I can't speak on reliability or longetivity.

 

[derekleffew]

... The dealer in my area is doing a trade in deal where I can give them an old Altman ellipsoidal and they will give a $200 discount on the new fixture. ...

I would hope that's $200 off the minimum advertised price of $1462.50 and not the MSRP of $1950.00. The Altman cut sheet says diode life is 50,000 hours. It doesn't say that other components will very likely die before that. I'm not sure we have here any "people that use them regularly". My advice: buy as many as you'll need for a complete system now, as next year something better, brighter, less-expensive will come along.

150W vs. 250W is a no-brainer. The more difficult choice: RGBW, RGBA, 3000K, or 5600K ?

 

[Les]

It doesn't say that other components will very likely die before that.

To expand on what Derek said, electrolytic capacitors are likely the true weak link in the system, and that goes for anything electronic. Of course, there are tons of variables to consider such as loading on individual components, operating temperature, duty cycle, etc, which is information we either don't have readily available or can't foresee. System design (of the luminaire itself) is what it comes down to, but Altman does seem to have a good track record with LEDs. Build quality is probably not too much of a concern.

The major qualm I have with LEDs is just what Derek mentioned - something new coming out every year. No matter what, your system will probably be at least one generation behind within 12 months - no escaping that. Get as much as you can now because mixing and matching isn't going to be as easy as it is with conventionals.

 

[JVTD]

The more difficult choice: RGBW, RGBA, 3000K, or 5600K ?

What would you recommend then? These are going to be in a auditorium for mainly Concerts, Plays, Musicals, rehearsals, and meetings.

 

[TheaterEd]

What would you recommend then? These are going to be in a auditorium for mainly Concerts, Plays, Musicals, rehearsals, and meetings.

I would recommend you get some demo fixtures and figure out what you like that will fit best with your rep plot (if you have one). You have a better idea of what you are looking to get out of a fixture, so there really is no better way to judge than to see what they look like in your facility and pick your favorite.

 

[MNicolai]

I would hope that's $200 off the minimum advertised price of $1462.50 and not the MSRP of $1950.00.

DesignLab is the dealer running the offer. Doug MacDonald there clarified at my asking:

The $200 rebate is against a quoted sale price. Because there are a number of options that effect pricing, we didn't publish a list, but the net will be a lower total price than anyone can advertise.

I had spoken to him about this offer on another occasion. To be clear, it's an offer for trading in any conventional ellipsoidals from any manufacturer for a Phoenix LED. Doesn't have to be an Altman for an Altman.

Anybody has further questions about the details of the offer, PM me and I can ask, or contact DesignLab directly: [email protected]

 

[JILL STEWART]

I would hope that's $200 off the minimum advertised price of $1462.50 and not the MSRP of $1950.00. The Altman cut sheet says diode life is 50,000 hours. It doesn't say that other components will very likely die before that. I'm not sure we have here any "people that use them regularly". My advice: buy as many as you'll need for a complete system now, as next year something better, brighter, less-expensive will come along.

150W vs. 250W is a no-brainer. The more difficult choice: RGBW, RGBA, 3000K, or 5600K ?

Yes it is off the final sale price you should call that dealer in Chicago for the price. Depending on model it's a little over a grand out the door!

 

[JChenault]

The more difficult choice: RGBW, RGBA, 3000K, or 5600K ?

What would you recommend then? These are going to be in a auditorium for mainly Concerts, Plays, Musicals, rehearsals, and meetings.

If you are planning to use these for front lighting ( IE faces and costumes) I would not consider the Altman unit just because it is an RGBW RGBA style unit. To my eyes these just do not look right for human skin and colors.

If I were forced to pick between them, I would take the RGBW unit simply because the white diode gives a more continuous spectrum. My first blush would be to take the 3000K unit as the white diodes tend to have a very blue component.

In reality, get a dealer to give lend you one of each kind ( and get the ETC units a s well) in your space and decide. ( If you are willing to not have color mixing, I would also look at the chauvet pro units. They dim beautifully.

I have not used the units in the wild. This is based on general experience with various LED units.

 

[Larry Schoeneman]

We currently have the Altman 3000K, RGBW, RGBA and ETC Series 2 hung in the DesignLab Chicago showroom. I own DesignLab and, therefore, am biased but we think that the Altman RGBA has a very slight red tint and the ETC unit a slight green tint, the Altman 3000K is a bright, crisp white - it just doesn't change colors. “You pays your money and you takes your choices.” We have 100 units in our rental inventory at present (RGBA and 3000K). We have one unit failed within the first week (bad power supply) and it was promptly repaired by Altman. My apologies if this is too commercial a response for this site. Please let us know if you need a comparison demo.
Take a look if you'd care to. In terms of use "in the wild", Steppenwolf has bought a number of the units after first renting them. J.R. Lederle (M.E.) likes them. You could ask him.

 

[Casey]

Hey all,
I'm glad that the word is out about this promotion that we are doing. While I'm not an 'official spokesperson' for DesignLab, I am an employee in the system sales department and have considerable experience with these fixtures. I don't think we are supposed to directly sell on these forums, so I'll try to stick to facts and my personal opinions:

DesignLab decided over a year ago to put these LED ellipsoidals into our rental inventory. I don't know how many we have in our inventory to date, but I know it was a considerable investment in the product line. We have had them out both on our internal productions, as well as rentals out to our customers. Just last week, we donated the rental of something like 60 of them (plus delivery, full setup and strike crew, designer, console, etc...) for the open ceremonies for the Illinois High School Theatre Festival in Champagne, IL. There are some pictures of that event floating around, and we have some others in house that we could share. It was a full LED rig, and was all Altman Phoenixes except for some moving lights (also LED, I think they were Mac Auras).

"DesignLab's Corporate Opinion" aside, I have personally used them on a few productions and feel like they are a really great product that is available at a really great price.

There are tons of choices out there for LED ellipsoidals, no one is denying that. They range widely in price, lumen output, color rendering, build quality, control features, and so on.... There are tons of choices and tons of factors that drive a purchase decision. We sell all of the major product lines out there, and are happy to discuss the pros and cons of these and any other product that we sell with our customers.

And of course, as with any large purchase decision, whatever direction you are leaning, get a demo, use it a bit, get your hands on the product, feel how sturdy the product feels, see how addressing it works, make sure it is compatible with your lighting console, and so on.

 

[Casey]

If you are planning to use these for front lighting ( IE faces and costumes) I would not consider the Altman unit just because it is an RGBW RGBA style unit. To my eyes these just do not look right for human skin and colors.

Have you seen the 3000k version? It is not a RGBW/A fixture. It is all white. Brighter, better CRI, etc. If you search my post history, you will find one from 2011 where I say that I wouldn't use LEDs for frontlight because the CRI isn't good enough, makes skin look iky:

"I wouldn't use LEDs to light people just yet. They are great with saturate colors, lighting painted drops or cycs, lighting walls at weddings, lighting bridges, and many other specific uses. But they are not yet good at making a pleasant white and they make skin tones look sickly. Additionally there are no fixtures out there that are truly a 'point source' that are bright enough to resolve a gobo."
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads...ng-lots-of-questions.22891/page-2#post-203046

That was three years ago, back in the era of color blasts, or several generations ago. Lots has changed since then. Today, my opinion is quite different.

 

[hobbsies]

the 3000k's are very warm, very bright and can take plastic colored gobos quite well like these from Apollo: http://internetapollo.com/PrintScenic/default.aspx. The RGBA's mix to white pretty well but there is a tint of blue in them, which you do not see in the 3000k.

 

[JChenault]

Have you seen the 3000k version? It is not a RGBW/A fixture. It is all white. Brighter, better CRI, etc. If you search my post history, you will find one from 2011 where I say that I wouldn't use LEDs for frontlight because the CRI isn't good enough, makes skin look iky:

That was three years ago, back in the era of color blasts, or several generations ago. Lots has changed since then. Today, my opinion is quite different.

I have not seen the 3000K version - thanks for bringing to my attention. I will take a closer look at USITT this year.

Curious if you are saying that your opinion has changed on using RGB, or RGBA for faces, or if you are saying that the addition a white emitter ( with hopefully a less intense bump in the blue spectrum) has changed your opionion.

 

[Brandon Merkle]

The 3000K versions are going to be calibrated closer to that of a standard incandescent Source Four, which output at a color temp of 3200K. If you have other Incandescent fixtures at all in your rig, or if you plan on putting any gels in them, the 3200K is going to give you a more consistent look across your hang.

 

[derekleffew]

The more difficult choice: RGBW, RGBA, 3000K, or 5600K ?

What would you recommend then? ...

The 5600 can be immediately dismissed. Thank you for auditioning.
If I were going 3000, I'd likely buy the Chauvet unit.
So that leaves RGBW or RGBA, and the only way to decide is to compare against one another.
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/rgba-vs-rgbw.26767/ Note the thread is three plus years old, and is largely theoretical.
Also, as said above, consider intended use: one might be better than another as face light, as side/back light, as scenery light.

 

[dvgmacdonald]

Hi All,

I see that lots of my colleagues have spoken up, but I'll throw in my two cents.

Like Casey mentions above, there are good LED profile spot options from a variety of manufacturers. They all sit at different points on the price / value curve. ETC provides a very high quality light with amazing color gamut at a somewhat lower output and somewhat higher price. Chauvet's fixture, for an all white unit is a very nice value. Altman has chosen a very high output with quite a nice price. Philips, Robert Juliat and others offer options as well. I would recommend to anybody that they get their hands on fixtures and use them before they buy (and we'll be happy to help you out with that).

The first question is likely whether you want color changing or static white. I have designed facilities that use a mix of both, so that they have a 3000K white option and a color changing option in every stage area. That is likely my preference if you have the money to support that option.

Where people are using all color changing and using the Altman product, my general advice would be to use RGBW from FOH and RGBA for side light, down light, etc. The White helps the face lighting look more natural than RGBA tends to allow.

I'll also chime in that I think the fixture is very bright for the price. I think all of us at DesignLab who have seen & used the fixtures have found ourselves pleasantly surprised by the value for the price.

Feel free to call us at 800-433-3752 if you'd like to discuss more with any of us.

Thanks,

Doug

 

[soundlight]

I have done a series of shootouts - I think it's a total of 3 now that put the Altman color mixing units (RGBA and RGBW) against the Source Four LED Luster+ (2 shootouts had the series 1, one had the newer series 2) as well as the Strand PL RGBW unit (can't remember exact model) as well as a regular conventional Source 4 for reference.. In all situations the clients decided on the Altman units. Some chose RGBW, some RGBA. My own alma mater purchased a dozen of the Phoenix 250W RGBA, and that was where we did the 3-hour shootout against the S4 LED 2. The only thing that the S4 LED 2 had going for it was that I could pick a color from the color picker in the ION and it was a deeead on match.

I think the RGBA and the RGBW both have their place - if your units will be frontlight/general wash/etc, get the RGBW. Fantastic warm white, and it's very easy to add the RGB to make an even brighter, still fantastic looking warm white. Most RGBW systems use a very cool (5600K or higher) white LED, whereas the Altman uses a nice warm white. If the units will be mostly used for top or sidelight and/or gobo washes, go with the RGBA. It can still get a nice warm white (not quite as bright or as dead on as the RGBW unit, but still quite passable), but it does some of the saturated colors better and brighter.

I would agree with the previous comment about Altman vs. ETC lens tubes in the unit - if you can, throw ETC EDLTs in there. More light out, waaaay crisper edge. If you can't afford the EDLTs, based on my very unscientific side-by-side comparison it looked like the regular Source 4 tube was able to get more even gobo sharpness than the Altman. Again, very unscientific comparison. I think many of the clients just purchased fixture bodies to integrate with their existing inventory of S4 lens tubes.

 

[NeroCaesar]

I bought 24x of the Altman 250w LED Phoenix RGBW and they look nice on stage, I have not been disappointed by the color and focus in cues.

What I have been disappointed in is the Power issues. I have had 5x units so far that have shut off randomly during a show and not turn back on till I unplugged it and plugged it back in. I have also had 2x units that Flicker from 20% to 30%. All of this has been tested with different power and dmx cables, different units, distance, settings, ect.

Luckily I have a two year warranty.

 

[kicknargel]

Wow, great thread. Makes me think of some questions for those with experience with these fixtures:

• If using an all-white LED profile for front light, do they behave similarly to a conventional when gelled? Or is the spectrum that makes up the white more peak-y, meaning you can't tone it quite so subtly.
• In conventionals, it's typically easier to correct a high-temp (cool) source to be warmer than vice-versa, at least in my experience. Say you wanted to get to 4300k - would you do better to start with a 3000k or 5600k LED and use gel to correct up or down?