Altman Shakespeare Lifespan
- Thread starterJason Pratt
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@Jason Pratt With regular routine yearly maintenance: Somewhere in the area of two to three decades. With zero maintenance in a gymn-atorium with basketballs and volleyballs thrown at it on a steady basis un-appreciably less than six months. I cry for your Altmans, possibly you should too.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
About the only things that fail are the lamp and base. Last I checked both are replaceable, so there’s essentially no limit to the lifespan as along as Sylvania/Osram and GE are making lamps and bases. That may not be forever though.
Not sure if Altman can supply parts though, as the fixture’s been discontinued for years.
The 2 biggest issues I had with the fixtures were 1) Steel assembly screws into aluminum body. Steel eventually wins when the fixtures are disassembled for cleaning and then you are retapping the hole and finding the next larger screw. We stopped doing this and often times junked the fixture. 2) There’s a lens at the gate that is not part of the lens tube. This gate lens can not be accessed for cleaning without disassembly of the fixture body, which is a remarkably difficult and time consuming process, thus we never cleaned them. I’ve no idea what the fixture designers were thinking at Altman but these were reasons we retired the 70 or so we owned and actually and except for the PAR 64 unit’s and 6 ZipStrips, have stopped using any Altman equipment
Not sure if Altman can supply parts though, as the fixture’s been discontinued for years.
The 2 biggest issues I had with the fixtures were 1) Steel assembly screws into aluminum body. Steel eventually wins when the fixtures are disassembled for cleaning and then you are retapping the hole and finding the next larger screw. We stopped doing this and often times junked the fixture. 2) There’s a lens at the gate that is not part of the lens tube. This gate lens can not be accessed for cleaning without disassembly of the fixture body, which is a remarkably difficult and time consuming process, thus we never cleaned them. I’ve no idea what the fixture designers were thinking at Altman but these were reasons we retired the 70 or so we owned and actually and except for the PAR 64 unit’s and 6 ZipStrips, have stopped using any Altman equipment
Ravenbar
Active Member
Depends on entirly on your willingness to do repairs and parts availability. Basic wear items(lamps and sockets) are still available. I know I can't get prebuilt caps as I've been looking.
I second the steel screws into aluminum being the weakness with these fixtures. Every year when I light the local HS's spring musical, I also do any lighting repairs that may be needed from the past year. Biggest issue with them is when replacing the socket, the standoff likes to snap off in the part it's mounted to, basically requiring an entire new cap. I've got a few parts units around for this reason.
The other issue is that we burn up sockets quite regularly. I replace half a dozen or so every year or 2. Never had an issu with few older Colortran lekos and also not much issue with the Starpars. I've parted out a few Starpars for the sockets as well, as we have an excess of them.
I also agree that I'd like to get away from Altman equipment for similar reasons. Every few years, it seems Altman changes there "conventional" fixtures. ETC S4 parts are pretty much backwards compatible all the way to their introduction in ?1991?. Result has been parts availability issues as they only seem to support the last generation or 2.
Les
Well-Known Member
I have an inventory of ~75 Shakespeares that has been in service since 1995. In that time I have accumulated 4 junk units in storage, plus another in the plot that should probably join them. Sockets were a problem in the early 2000's, but I haven't had any issues since the last wave of replacements a few years ago. They're not the best fixture, but they've been holding up.
Shakesphere I have to admidt absolutely no experience in any way with. That said a debate about zinc coated verses say 18-8 stainless steel screws or better yet 316 s.steel screws working best with aluminum castings. Some say bad, (Aluminum with Stainless steel bad) some better in use than zinc coated and especially un-coated screws for fixtures. I don't know what to think - our Metals' welder chief says S.Steel bad with aluminum, yet I always see it best in use for high heat for 20 years. One of us mistaken in light debate and probably details of use in use thru or tapped to aluminum.
I would certainly say Shakesphere will be levels above the Lighting & Electronics brand of Leko, or that of the Strand 2240 series or last before the "Leo" where lenses could literally pop out of the sky if lens train slides home... (reported before). Lamp sockets will be changed as nom on and brand of fixture over service life.
I would certainly say Shakesphere will be levels above the Lighting & Electronics brand of Leko, or that of the Strand 2240 series or last before the "Leo" where lenses could literally pop out of the sky if lens train slides home... (reported before). Lamp sockets will be changed as nom on and brand of fixture over service life.
Ravenbar
Active Member
Based on my experience in a variety of fields, I'll say this:
-S. Steel does hold up better in high heat, That's why they make the shutters out of it.
-Steel or S. Steel does not like to be rubbed on aluminum as it galls, i.e. threads of the fastener essential become welded in place.
The problem created by this in the Shakespeare's is that the threaded end of the standoffs that hold the light shield are used to secure the socket in place. They are threaded into an aluminum base plate. When an attempt is made to remove the standoffs to replace the socket, the threaded parts snaps off flush with the surface. Drilling out a steel screw in an aluminum is nearly impossible without wandering and the part the screws snap off in is not available as far as I can tell (Altman #12-0126) is not available.
Please expand thoughts.
I have never seen stainless welding/corrosion to aluminum specifically but often don't see after results of what I make or work on, - and I trust my shop welder in saying that it does... I just don't yet understand how or why. Science please me in why.
After some search https://www.altmanlighting.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/ellipsoidal_360Q_parts.pdf it's the plentium under the lamp base part in the current manual in a speed cap assembly. Never used the speed cap before so some questions there in general on how that concept works and why the problem.
Assuming no offense in politics but a note of China made stainless steel cheap on the market at this point these days, I have seen more of it Stainless Steel as per similar to zinc as a coating to fasteners - and it rubbing off in rusting/corroding. I need some education on this being grades of 18-8 verses 316 etc. Stainless Steel for it above or in differences, but if correct also in it's science. I note much rigging is going 316 stainless. Can if Altman using a S.Steel screw, it's coating rub off? If than in uncoated steel to alumimum - this corrode? Easy and normal... Seen a lot of uncoated screws rust to the aluminum over the years.
As for the #12-0126 part.. if you bring one to a machine shop they can easily fabricate that part out of aluminum or stanless or steel in general. Will cost money to do so, but easy enough to reproduce the part. Better yet in cheaper, they can probably extract the broken screw.
I would try penetrating oil soaked for a time, grinding flush, center punch than a 1/16" left hand drill bit in starter bit to try or at least a starter hole to than the screw extractor. Often a screw can get extracted. (How much damage has been done a question.) Best for an aluminum part to try verses just replace depends on how easy to get out.
Remember if your high school school metals shop, next, local Junior College, or next up Local College in extracting the screw or making the replacement part cannot do this for free in challenge due to outreach, your local metals shop or possibly even auto parts might be able to invent the parts you need or extract the screw.... "Worth a full year placement in your show program?" Local companies you have to remember, like to help your outreach in their tech abilities. It inspires the employees, is PC good, if they get free advertising, etc... Your outreach for stuff like solving this not too difficult problem, locally you might find a solution and friend. Stuck one screw to another metal from gas station repair shop to auto parts place that does breaks.... I think your reach out can find help. Just as I would walk across the partking lot at work to the welding shop if I could not fix with oil, reverse drills or extractor taps. Assuming you don't have them.. again local sources probably do at least.
Not a difficult part to reproduce, and as with the non-speed cap, I have in the past had fabricated them, and improved.
I have never seen stainless welding/corrosion to aluminum specifically but often don't see after results of what I make or work on, - and I trust my shop welder in saying that it does... I just don't yet understand how or why. Science please me in why.
After some search https://www.altmanlighting.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/ellipsoidal_360Q_parts.pdf it's the plentium under the lamp base part in the current manual in a speed cap assembly. Never used the speed cap before so some questions there in general on how that concept works and why the problem.
Assuming no offense in politics but a note of China made stainless steel cheap on the market at this point these days, I have seen more of it Stainless Steel as per similar to zinc as a coating to fasteners - and it rubbing off in rusting/corroding. I need some education on this being grades of 18-8 verses 316 etc. Stainless Steel for it above or in differences, but if correct also in it's science. I note much rigging is going 316 stainless. Can if Altman using a S.Steel screw, it's coating rub off? If than in uncoated steel to alumimum - this corrode? Easy and normal... Seen a lot of uncoated screws rust to the aluminum over the years.
As for the #12-0126 part.. if you bring one to a machine shop they can easily fabricate that part out of aluminum or stanless or steel in general. Will cost money to do so, but easy enough to reproduce the part. Better yet in cheaper, they can probably extract the broken screw.
I would try penetrating oil soaked for a time, grinding flush, center punch than a 1/16" left hand drill bit in starter bit to try or at least a starter hole to than the screw extractor. Often a screw can get extracted. (How much damage has been done a question.) Best for an aluminum part to try verses just replace depends on how easy to get out.
Remember if your high school school metals shop, next, local Junior College, or next up Local College in extracting the screw or making the replacement part cannot do this for free in challenge due to outreach, your local metals shop or possibly even auto parts might be able to invent the parts you need or extract the screw.... "Worth a full year placement in your show program?" Local companies you have to remember, like to help your outreach in their tech abilities. It inspires the employees, is PC good, if they get free advertising, etc... Your outreach for stuff like solving this not too difficult problem, locally you might find a solution and friend. Stuck one screw to another metal from gas station repair shop to auto parts place that does breaks.... I think your reach out can find help. Just as I would walk across the partking lot at work to the welding shop if I could not fix with oil, reverse drills or extractor taps. Assuming you don't have them.. again local sources probably do at least.
Not a difficult part to reproduce, and as with the non-speed cap, I have in the past had fabricated them, and improved.
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Ravenbar
Active Member
Here's a wikipedia article explaining the aluminum to steel/S. Steel issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling
I didn't realize the 360Q speed cap shared parts with the Shakespeare cap but the part looks the same. Also makes sense as their of a similar vintage. Actually, the entire cap looks very similar, other that the light shield.
I only work on the lighting at the local HS, where I have a drawer of caps with broke off screws. They eliminated their shop class in the last few years and from what I hear, the shops been pretty picked over and there's not much good stuff left.
This next week is my vacation from my day job/tech for the HS's musical. I'll be spending 12+ hours a day there so if I get bored/looking for a change of pace, I'll dig out one of the caps and try getting the screws out. I've probably got enough fab tools here at the house to make the parts if needed. They're looking to update/upgrade the system so I don't want to spend a lot of time/money rebuilding lights, just for them to be retired in 6 months or a year. Also not too keen on making the parts as I won't be there to keep an eye on them to see how they hold up as I only do the lighting for the musical there. After next weekend, I won't be back there for 9 months.
If I do end up making them, I'll be sure to take a lot of pictures and make a post here so others can do the same.
Ravenbar
Active Member
In broadcast engineering, we use a lot of stainless bolts and nuts on transmission lines and antenna hardware. They are notorious for galling threads to the point that the nut and bolt are essentially welded together. A dab of anti-seize grease during assembly prevents it, but that may not work inside a hot light.
@Les and @FMEng As I've previously posted further up in this thread; an amateur group in Burlington, Ontario, Canada was having periodic problems with the cap retention bolts galling on their 22 Source Four Junior Zooms. One of their eldest members is a long retired precision machinist. Lawrie (Lawrence) looked at the pending problems and applied his personally mixed economical anti galling goop to the Source Four Junior zooms' cap retention bolts and all traces of the problem vanished. Among items Lawrie still maintains in his home machine shop are internal parts for hydro-electric gas fired turbines originally manufactured in the 1970's and 1980's by Westinghouse now owned by a huge conglomerate with parts lonnngg out of production. Lawrie's home brew anti-galling goop has no trouble standing up to the temperatures around and within gas turbines spinning 24 / 7 and the heat of the S4 Junior Zooms' caps doesn't appear to be bothering it in the slightest. I know I've posted of Lawrie's economy home-brewed anti-galling goop here on Dave's Control Booth forum at least once before but likely several years ago by now.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Thanks all for helping me understand the problem and solutions. https://www.controlbooth.com/members/ravenbar.21849
Yep, you are correct and thanks... that's not an easy part to replace.
Yep, you are correct and thanks... that's not an easy part to replace.
Ravenbar
Active Member
If it were just a screw, that would be an easy solution. THe part that keeps breaking off is a standoff, which both secures the socket to the base, and mounts the light shield at the top of the socket.
I've mostly experienced this problem with the original sockets. Of the sockets I've replaced, I think only 2 or 3 have gone bad, and those were the first ones I did and they went bad within a couple days. I didn't put them into service and I suspect poor lamp installation as the cause.
Looking at it, it doesn't seem like it would be hard to make, just time and material consuming. Problem when dealing with a machine shop is the latter 2 are what drive cost. If I had access to a decent lathe(I've got a Craftsman 9" combination lathe, but it's 80 yrs old, and a wood lathe that could be adapted to metal) , I'd give it a try at making one. I may ask around on a machinist site and see about ideas they come up with.
That stem is the materials and fab killer. I wonder in a concept of a hex bolt for especiall heavy hex, cored into 1/2" or 5/8" aluminum plate, than drilled for the center tap might work. Certainly a better grade of alumium than a cast aluminum would help go away the "galling" problems. Fascinating that stainless steel has more a problem than zinc coated steel as a note. Will have thought due to heat, the zinc coating will have had more problems. This me re-thinking going 18-8 stainles steel on most of my Altman lamp centering adjustment screw caps. But otherwise sticking with stainless on the non-movable parts.
Wish I had mill and training - making these parts would be so much fun! I know our shop person has fun with parts I have him create for work. It's like the computer guys can CNC what they want, but takes real skill to fabricate parts on laith and Mill.
Belive you need a mill instead of laith though. Done a small amout of mill work with my drill press in the past - but only a small amount of work in it really not liking to do that.
Wish I had mill and training - making these parts would be so much fun! I know our shop person has fun with parts I have him create for work. It's like the computer guys can CNC what they want, but takes real skill to fabricate parts on laith and Mill.
Belive you need a mill instead of laith though. Done a small amout of mill work with my drill press in the past - but only a small amount of work in it really not liking to do that.
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Ravenbar
Active Member
A lathe can be used as a mill if you take off the tool post and mount the material there. Chuck the toolbit in the chuck and you have a very basic horizontal mill. A lathe is sometimes called the mother of all machine tools as it's the only tool that needed to do all machining functions, albeit in a crude was.
jasonosterman
Member
Just to point out that Altman's policy is to support all discontinued equipment for a minimum of 5 years. The current PHX Incandescent has been manufactured since 2013 and there are currently no plans for sunset at this time.
Les
Well-Known Member
Yeah, not to put anyone on the spot, but I'd like an example of this "always changing" thing. Altman made the 360Q almost the exact same way for decades. Same with 65Q and 75Q.
The Shakespeare ran from ~1994(?) until sometime in the mid-2000's. I have some 1995 fixtures and some 2005 fixtures and can't tell the difference between them aside from a different texture to the powdercoat. Lamp caps have been shared between them with no issues. The only hiccup being a slightly different socket design on these "newer" units. But that probably had more to do with the design of sockets at the time.
At the same time, I've had trouble getting newer caps on to the back of an older S4 body. Tooling changes over the years and designs go through minor revisions. These things are to be expected.
