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An Illuminating Experience... (a warning)

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by icewolf08, Oct 17, 2007.

  1. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    So, this morning I was doing some research into buying new lamps for my Elation PowerSpot 700s. The lamp they take is the Phillips MSR700 SA/DE (#136184). (BTW: If anyone makes an equivalent lamp I would love to know.)

    In any event, the real story starts with a phone call to [a particular company that was recommended whose name I omit], located in Long Island (I believe). I have never used them before, but they have sent me a lot of information and they say on their website that they will beat any price, so I figured I would give them a try in the interest of saving money.

    So, I called them up, and the first representative I talked to was nice and helpful, but couldn't find any information on the lamp in question. The only lamps she could find were the MSR700 SA and MSR700/2. These are both bi-pin base lamps, where mine is a dual end lamp. So, I got passed off to another rep, and I had to give all the information again, what lamp, what fixture, etc. Now, this rep insisted that I was looking for the wrong lamp for my fixtures. She insisted to the point of being condescending.

    Now, frankly, I am the one with the old lamp in my hand and the fixture in my office, one would think I would know what I was talking about. I even called Elation to ask what the correct lamp is. While I was on the phone with Elation they told me that their web page on the fixture lists the wrong lamp, so, I could see where this rep from [said company name omitted] could be getting the wrong info, but that doesn't excuse the way I was treated.

    So, I don't know if any of you have ever used them, but from my experience, I wouldn't be too inclined to call them again. Just thought I would let you know, just in case.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2007
  2. Dillon

    Dillon Active Member

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    I've used [that company] in the past for lamps and expendables. They are great if you know exactly what you want... look up your own info and double-check it before calling. They've led me in circles trying to track down a lamp for my followspots (Strong Int'l Radiance). I ended up having to call Strong directly to get the Ushio part numbers I needed. [They] ended up giving me a more than fair price on the replacement lamp. Sign up for their e-sales flyer... they've got some great deals in there from time to time. I stocked up on generic lamps for my S4's and fresnels when they were on sale and saved a bundle.

    [edited by ship - see below]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2007
  3. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    While I am chuckling as I read this post, as I and many in the industry and have talked to both people in the past many times, much less absolutely agree with your observations (good and bad) and could give more of our own. Point is that it’s not generally acceptable to post publically what you posted how you posted it on-line, and especially on this forum.

    Either if you don’t recommend them as a short and sweet in reply to a post such as where to shop from, but not going into detail on why - contact you off line if interested, or going into detail but not publically post their company name. Perhaps hinting at it at most, and again contact you off line.

    I would highly recommend that both of you remove the name of the company from your post or I will have to - sorry, that’s the way the industry works, and it is a very small industry.


    The MSR 700SA/DE #1301-8 from Phillips is another version of the Osram HTI 700w/D4/75 #54242 or HTI 700w/D4/60 both of which were on the market a year or two before the Philips lamp came out. Main differences are in color temperature, CRI and Luminous output. The Osram HTI 700w/D4/60 is about 6,000̊K, the the HTI 700w/D4/60 burns at 7,500̊K. Both have a CRI of >85 and Luminous output of 59,000 Lumens. The Phillips MSR 700SA/DE dependant upon what pamphlet on the lamp you read has changed from 6K to 6.5K to now 7.5K over the last few years from 7/04 to 2/07 the I believe current spec. At the moment it's published lamp specifications are at 7.5K in color temprature and a CRI of 75. Not shure what the current specified luminous output is, it's changed as much as the color temperature but I believe if it's a 7.5K color temperature it is 56,000 Lumens that was also published with it.

    Same exact lamps as get used in a Martin Mac 700 fixture and Martin is currently also pushing the Phillips Gold lamp over the Osram Shark lamp.

    (Not even in their on-line catalog yet but you should find a on-line advertisement of it on the Phillips Broadway section.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2007
  4. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    no problem ship, will edit. It is interesting though, as in my price shopping today there were other dealers who had similar experiences with said company.
     
  5. Mirrai

    Mirrai Member

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    I would like to know why a person can't post a companys name when the company acted that way. I understand that it is a small industry but that doesn't mean we should lower our standards to costumer service. To be honest I would expect better custumer service from companies because there are, relatively, so few custumers out there for their products.
    Any way that is just a newbie in the fields thoughts.
     
  6. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Slander is not accepted here or on many forums. You can also see by the second post that one’s milage might vary dependant upon how each person individually clicks with the sales person. Removing the name of the company from the post and replacing it perhaps with something like “.... Bulbs” or removing it all together will make the statements just as important for intent in others not to put up with crap when spending money, just limit it in shopping anywhere in their own experiences and not to a specific company. That could be helpful in general as there is others just or perhaps different in not good service out there. I would also recommend not mentioning that they can contact you off line for who it was with your bad experience if they don’t already know. Tech people like Wolf, I and others simply by the description already knew who you were talking about without even mentioning who it was. Dillon no doubt also already knew - this sales person is a legend in the industry. There has been many off line discussions with tech people in the past about them - off line. Those that don’t know the specific supplier will instead get an overall idea that they are the customer... This no matter where they shop.

    Get the idea? First, you don’t slander specifically any company in public on a website. All find and dandy to say stuff like I hate ETC or what ever - they are major companies. It is however inappropriate to slander even if true to which it instantly got a inverse opinion stated to their defence a distributer, local company etc in depth. You can give an opinion - a short one when replying but to start a post specifically to do this, is not civil. The warning intended to others in a post is often not a warning that does other than start flame wars. You either tell your experience in general that you had without bringing down their house, or you in the future don’t recommend them when asked. You don’t do the same thing in the same very public post.

    Kind of how it is, hope it helps. Can’t do it on stagecraft or lighting network either.

    Perhaps Icewolf or others can better describe why you cannot do this, believe he understands and agrees in general with the concept once reminded of it. Much less it's Dave's website and could get him into trouble.
     
  7. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Yeah, I was wondering if this post would get zonked.

    You can say a lot when you are expressing an opinion about a company or product. "I had a bad experience shopping with this company and would not recommend them because in my opinion..." or "I don't like this product because in my opinion..." But when you go into detail about interaction with employees it goes beyond just a simple opinion and starts to get personal. That quickly approaches the line between expressing an opinion and slander. Slander is something you can get sued for. And who would get sued? Dave for hosting the site. By allowing the post to stay it becomes a officially condoned by Dave. The question then becomes, is Dave willing to get sued by the company because of Alex's slanderous personal attacks (that's what the other guy's lawyers would call it)? Answer no of course not. We all know and respect Alex's opinions. We accept that things happened just as he described because we know him. What if a stranger with only one post came in and said worse things about another company? Where do you draw the line? Who gets to say nasty things and who doesn't? How nasty can you get without being censored?

    It's far easier to avoid all that and just say if you want to bash a company don't post the name publicly give it out in P.M. Want to have complete freedom of speech start your own website... then you can get sued for slander instead of Dave.

    By the way Alex, it sounds like I'm bashing you for this, I'm really not trying to. I Love you man! I appreciate the post, your frustration, and the warning. Sounds like it's best to shop somewhere else.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2007
  8. Pie4Weebl

    Pie4Weebl Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    alright, this has been a pet peave with this site for a long time. Where exactly has this long held belief that you can get sued for what you post. I want examples of where this has happened in the past. Also posting a negative experience isn't slander. Saying something like "I bought a computer from dell and their customer service failed me x, y and z ways" is not slander. On the other hand claiming "Dell came to my house and raped my dog then stole my tv" would be slander. On the same token a company isn't going to sue a website for slander, that would bring more bad PR than any comment. Worst case scenario is dave gets a threating form letter. Consider this a far fetched idea, but I believe companies to be responsible for how every transaction takes place good or bad. Let the consumer decide.

    The same goes for posting info about rigging or pyro, I refuse to believe that the argument of "I heard this online" would stand up in court. The idea of keeping knowledge away for the sake of safety is ridiculous. The way I see it is, I don't plan on doing pyro anytime soon, but from reading a thread about it if I saw someone doing something stupid I could stop a bad situation from happening.

    But please, prove me wrong, show me where an online forum been successfully sued for something other than copyright violations or kiddy porn and been successful.
     
  9. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    Well, I have since had quite the in-depth PM conversation with Ship, and as you can see, i have edited the original post. Since then, I have been tossing around the idea of deleting it myself, though I suppose now it poses no harm to anyone who didn't read it before. hey, it could have been worse, i could have used people's names, but I didn't know what they were... And frankly there are other companies that are more worth my time to complain about... (don't ask, cause I won't tell, though if you worked at my theatre for a while you would inevitably find out)

    I certainly realize that we work in a small and very competitive industry. I should, I work in regional theatre, it seems we are always broke... It is important to me, and to all of us that our suppliers survive. I wish that there were more items that were fair traded (ever notice that you can buy a Mac for the same price no matter what store you go to?). I mean why is it that the local dealer gets screwed because he doesn't sell as many units as the big company?

    I suppose I have very idealistic dreams, and I am sure that there are many others out there who feel the same.
     
  10. Logos

    Logos Well-Known Member

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    There is one simple issue above and that is that the ultimate defence to a slander suit is that what you are saying is the truth. You are then left with deciding whether what you said is good business practice. As we have two people with differing experiences then it probably isn't good business practice to slag off the company. Maybe the sales person you were talking too was having a bad day. who knows. If the issue is important enough try to discuss it with the company. (Edit: This is intended to be generic advice not specific to your case Alex.)

    I agree with the bans on pyro and rigging advice. How would one of us feel if someone took advice we offered and mucked it up hurting them selves. Strictly apart from liability which is I agree a can of worms we would feel like sh**.
    For an example of cases of liability sueing for websites. Financial advisors were successfully sued in the late eighties and early nineties in the UK for generic advice they offered on websites that later went bottom up and people lost money. Where a direct question is asked and answered the door to litigation is open.
     
  11. len

    len Well-Known Member

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    Alex,

    I don't know you, but I wonder how much of your difficulty was based on where you are. I've traveled a lot around the U.S., and people are a bit different. The
    "pushy New Yorker" stereotype can be true, and I wonder if that wasn't part of the issue. Even people from downstate Illinois are different from those who grew up in the Chicago area. You can even spot a suburbanite vs. a person who grew up in the inner city if you pay attention enough. I wouldn't take it personally. It's why I prefer to do things by e-mail. You have proof of what was communicated if you save the correspondence, and you don't run into those regional differences which are subject to interpretation.
     
  12. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    len, though that is quite possible, I did grow up in Boston. Not quite the same as NY, but still a big bustling city. Given our industry we do a lot of dealing with NY based companies. I always do my homework before I buy things, and this was the first time that I was blatantly told that I was wrong, what I really wanted was X.

    Now, maybe some of the dealers who are members here could correct me if I am wrong, but hypothetically, if I were a dealer and someone called me asking for "Product X34567" and they gave me the manufacturers order code I would say "OK, how many do you need?" If it didnt show up in my price list, I would say, "Can I call you back, I need to check with my source on the price for this." I wouldn't tell my customer they were wrong.

    I am sure that the people I dealt with are very knowledgeable about the products they sell. I also think that what was said about the industry being small is a double edged sword, because the dealers (one would think) probably don't want to stab themselves in the back, and turn away potential customers, and it seems like that would be a hard goal to accomplish when you have bad customer relations. Sure, could have been an isolated incident, but me, as the end user, I don't know. I suppose that I should also say that they did call back with a price quote that was far less than any other company I talked to over the day, so if you are on a budget and need a deal call them, chances are what they say on their site is true, and they will beat any published price.

    Ask anyone who works with me, I am, and I try to be pretty easy to get along with. I believe that everyone should be given enough chance to prove themselves whether they work for me, with me or above me. In an industry that is largely based on who you know, it is amazingly important not to burn bridges.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2007
  13. len

    len Well-Known Member

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    OK, so the big city pushy vs. more relaxed westerner theory is shot down. Fortunately, despite this being a relatively small industry there are still enough people in it that you don't have to deal with the likes of them again.
     
  14. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    So, one last thing, and then I think that I am going to take a break from this thread.

    What does it say about our society that people take criticism as an attack?

    Look at it this way, if I, or anyone here, decided to give a company a try and had an amazing experience with them, no one would think twice if I posted details of that experience and recommended the company. People would probably say thanks and maybe even try the company for themselves. On the other hand, you post a bad review, and people get up in arms. Then you have look at yet another side of the argument, if a journalist, researcher writer, or undercover investigator for a newspaper or trade magazine were to give a detailed negative review that would be more acceptable to people, but the common person has to keep their experiences to themselves. An interesting double standard.

    This country was founded on principles like freedom of speech and freedom of expression, but really that means you are free to say what you want as long as it doesn't offend someone else. That is the world we live in, you have to be PC or you get sued. Like I said in an earlier post, you can call me an idealist, but it is kind of sad world we live in. It's just sad to know that expressing an opinion can get you sued in this day and age.
     
  15. Dillon

    Dillon Active Member

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    Wow... and here I thought I had just stumbled across a diamond in the rough with this one.

    Y'all bring up some good points. What was written by ice was not slanderous, which would require what he said to be UNTRUE. He was simply recounting his experience with one company, all of which WAS true (or so we believe). No one is going to get in trouble over listing the company's name. It just isn't going to happen. Not to Dave, not to ice, not to me.

    That aside... This topic brings up another good point. Is this website a place for professionals to share their experiences with outside vendors? If we have to censor ourselves on any bad reviews, then we should do the same for all good reviews. On the other hand... Why is it that we censor information in regards to rigging and pyro? Because someone might get hurt because of the information we leave. Isn't it fair to say that we are doing damage to others by not warning them about a potentially dangerous vendor? It seems hypocritical either way.

    Take a look at Trip Advisor, a website community dedicated solely to reviewing businesses (restaurants, hotels, attractions, etc.) for travelers. There are some reviews posted on there that go FAR beyond anything already mentioned in this thread. Their policies are simple: "We will not post reviews containing: Profanity or threats, Personal insults, Reports of violent criminal activity, Commercial web addresses, e-mail addresses or phone numbers, Text entirely in ALL CAPS, Hearsay, Content not relevant to tourists, HTML" Basically: "Keep it civil and keep it honest." There are workable models out there to allow users in the field to honestly review suppliers, vendors, contractors, manufacturers and anybody else related to our (albeit small) industry.
     
  16. jmabray

    jmabray Active Member

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    Just an fyi guys -

    none of this is slander. Slander is oral. If anything, it would be libelous (sp?) which is:

    a. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
    b. The act of presenting such material to the public.
     
  17. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    It’s perhaps not slander, read about another definition in another website where they had to put an end to a similar posting about a different bad experience with a sales person or company. It’s as far as I know a sort of standard for most websites - personal attacks on sales people (in this case sales people well known in the industry good and bad) and attacks on privately owned distributers as opposed to as per the Dell or ETC example, more or less a entity where it’s less a problem with the corporate company and more a detail of what they produce. This spars debate, design changes and is for the most part fair game. Kind of like the Apple/PC debate. Also you get into the problems of Dillon coming to their defense, which was accurate and very well stated and placed in counter balance or defense of that company and now you have a problem in it perhaps not being a totally valid observation. Milage might vary and some types of sales people or in general style of tech people click with some, with others not so much. Years with purchasing with this company specific on my part - part of the reason if not the main reason I had to learn lamp specs to the extent I had. Pulled my corporate rear out of the fire at some points also in tour support going the extra mile. Lots of suppliers out there similar or just as unique, lots of suppliers that do the same or even more - lots of suppliers. And also as with other suppliers - lots of headaches at times and screwed up orders or substitutions for what I paid for.

    I could go into detail on this and forwarded messages to me about me from them in relation to them but it’s not proper and should not be to post publically. Been around the block and knocked my head against a brick wall enough that I know for instance that I’m better solving problems with Altman, while someone else at work is better solving problems with ETC. At times and it does take two to fight. Can at times be both the vendor, vendor rep and the customer at play.

    In as it were putting a gag order on the slamming of the company I would think that the original message was not hurt in it’s secondary intent, to show what you don’t have to put up with if it’s not clicking with you. After the company specific which could be debated and is not fair unless both parties specific to the call had access to respond, I would think the educational value of the rest of the message superseded the which company it really was.

    Beyond this, what happens a few years or months down the line when and if this company replaced its sales staff yet still had this warning about them publically posted forever on line? This is real harm it could do to that company that is fairly large as distributers go. Problem was in interpersonal connection with the sales staff he talked to and it was one sided in presentation. Such a thing is not fair to provide to others as it shapes their opinion.

    Instead, others in having a blind knowledge of the vendor yet remembering how not to have good communications with any vendor in general, the message is much stronger. Should someone in the future contact this company, the end result if similar in response by than would end in no doubt a similar result. Granted as opposed to a direct warning against a specific company, it’s a general warning about someone out there in general that in his opinion is not that good at personal skills or product knowledge by way of the sales staff. Kind of a superiority complex one might infer perhaps - not that I’m her self admitted nemesis for customer or anything. Still at times I do shop there or at least at other times give the chance to supply me. Goes personal beyond that in personally attempting to get me replaced as the buyer for where I work in respect to them. Still, valid supplier and did save big money thru them to an extent based upon the girth of my experience and ability to shop around.

    “but I believe companies to be responsible for how every transaction takes place good or bad. Let the consumer decide.” - Pie4Weebl

    Totally agree. Let the individual customer decide. Beyond this, instead of posting this complaint publically about his individual experience with the sales staff, why didn’t he send his comments to the owners of that company? What is better a warning or letting them that pay their salary know why they just lost a customer? At times resolution takes place by way of enough bad mail and or conflict resolution. Warned enough times not to bog down that table saw and perhaps you might not get an ejected piece of lumber into your chest in changing your habits of using the tool. Than again, keep getting warned and you might not be using the saw any longer.

    Such concepts also get you much better results. On almost a weekly basis I’m contacting some supplier directly with a problem by way of sales staff at times - and it does happen in asking for someone else to handle my account, or in general about a product. Gets me far by way of in the past free magazine subscriptions if I stick with them another year and give them a chance to hammer out the bugs, or at one point a phone call to my dorm room by Robert Altman in apologizing for a problem to which he also sent not just the gear right away but also swag and extra gear. Doesn’t matter who you are or what your position where, direct communication - especially by snail mail works wonders. Much better way of going about it, and has better results than say if one has a bad experience at the local gas station, going to a different town’s park and getting on a soap box to scream out your injustice with them.

    Successfully sued is hard to prove no doubt. On the other hand, good taste, not sparring a debate that harms others and is not fair to all in equal opportunity to defend oneself is I hope above proved. This company would be harmed by the posting of who it was and it’s not fair to them based upon this experience with them. Even if many experiences with any company were similar, there is still a valid number or good experiences with them which keep them in business so any posting negative of them thus is slanted and invalid.

     
  18. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Nope, not done yet - gotta support that argument as well - I no doubt would think the same about such a good Kudos post without rational of posting - in the blind and not in relation to an on-going topic.

    Production Advantage for instance gets constant Kudo’s from members. Such posts are in response or as part of a topic.

    Now someone out of the blue creating a post and saying Production advantage is tops, they handled all my needs, the sales staff was great and everything went swimmingly sounds kind of like a commercial doesn’t it? Just as it’s not permissible or shall we I would hope more a manners type of thing not to slam such a post, it wouldn’t be proper to do an advertisement. Forget what type of advertisement - paid or not, wasn’t it advertisement by endorsement?

    Jaded... sorry it is a small industry and at times just have to bide your time in living and learning how it works before you get to make the monumental changes to it. Or we all start slinging cable and dreaming of being a designer. How many actors does it take to screw in a light bulb type of thing. On the other hand, as you learn the little nuances of the industry, why they are there, it does make it much easier to change them little by little into making your world function more easily. Than the next generation comes around and despises you for what you did. .... I digress.

    Press veses post debate... You certainly are welcome to blog your post. That I believe is freedom of the press, but shouldn’t you do a bit more research before drawing your un-biast conconclusion as a service to the public? Wasn’t it apparent at least by the next poster that perhaps your experience is not a common trait? Harm done to you personally in how you related to them it would seem is not a plot by them persay. You even replied later that they did go the extra mile and call you back once they had their first cup of coffee and thought about it a bit.

    Difference between civilians and reporters of the news I expect is in what makes reporters reporters, or movie critics movie critics etc. Base of knowledge, experience, research on the topic etc. Instead your post was more like the article in the Star or People Magazine persay. Very single person observation of what went on and low on real journalism for it’s purpose. And on the Hollywood scandle sheet tonight, This star out of rehab ran over a paparazzi’s foot. But was it really even the person reported to do so in the car or someone that looked like him or her? This much less - kind of have to go out of your way to get one's foot run over.

     
  19. Ford

    Ford Sr Product Manager, Chauvet Professional

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    Ok, I'm a newbie to your forums, and I skipped lunch today (so may be a bit grouchy) BUT...
    You're saying that Icewolf has a limited base of knowledge?...No experience ordering lamps?...That he hasn't done his homework? That sounds more slanderous than his post about a bad experience with a vendor. I accept the premise that a thread started with the sole intent of bashing a company or individual is wrongheaded, but starting a thread to say "I had this problem" doesn't seem wrong to me at all. The fact that he gave some details of his encounter makes it (to me) more valid than just saying "So-and-So Sucks". What is the point of having a forum if we cannot share bad experiences as well as good ones. I would fully expect someone to step up and say "Really? You must have caught them on a bad day. I've had some very good experiences with them." If this were true. If the company is reputable, then history will back them up, and they will be fine.

    That is a goofy argument. If someone has a good interaction, then they may post nice things about them... If a company does truly have a poor rep when it comes to customer service then I'd like to know it before I use them.

    What better service to your fellow forum members than to share your real life experiences so that someone else doesn't have to go through what you did?

    WHAT? this makes no sense to me at all. I assume that you're saying that it is unfair to judge them on the basis of one bad review... OK, so counter with an example of good service that you've received. Saying that posting anything negative is is slanted and thus invalid is not correct. I just posted to a topic on Source-4 pars. There was plenty of discussion (based on real life experiences) of the general "crappiness" of knock offs. Because they named the companies, and said bad things about their products does that make the comments "slanted and thus invalid"?


    Slander? No, fact. He had a bad (in fact a couple of bad) interactions. Does he not have the right to air them in an open forum?

    Look, I've been in this business for a while, I've had good and bad days. There are people out there that think highly of me, and I'm sure that there are some who think otherwise. If I do treat someone badly, I know that what comes around goes around. But the point is this: If someone has something true to say about me, then I deserve the reputation that I get. Good or Bad.

    Having deleted the company name, you may be better off deleting the entire thread. The only use this thread has now, is to feed comments like mine.

    If this post is out of line, PM me, and we can discuss it further.

    -I better go get lunch now.
     
    Logos and Pie4Weebl like this.
  20. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Illinois
    I apologize for having raised your ire with such a change. Valid counterpoints to the discussion - newbie don’t matter in debate it’s ideas.

    Yes in a way I’m saying that based upon what Icewolf has said in posting that his experience with this and other companies is fairly limited - even if valid in observation. Sole purpose of blasting a specific company verses in general what one should put up with is my own point in removing company name from the post. What’s more important advice, one company or in general?

    Sharing good and bad exeriences in general in general is the goal, and debates of ETC verses what ever is also valid, one specific supplier however with details about it’s reps on the other hand is not within the bounds of taste or fair ness. I’m not perhaps so well at expressing why but it’s the norm in the industry that you don’t do it on-line with who it was that screwed it up.

    In point two to your argument - you will know bad service when you get it. Pre-reading won’t matter as in this case it did not in that they did not make the sale for him.

    Real life experiences mean experiences in my opinion in general that don’t have to be specific to the distributer of lamps he had a problem with. Is it possibly a better service to all who read what his experiences were in general as per a caution in general no matter where he shops?

    Again your points are valid, perhaps this post should have been deleted but at the moment I fairly am certain that the forum rules support my actions and in doing so this other than saying who it was does not effect it’s overall statement or advice. Should you like to know who it was so as to personally avoid you can PM any of the first three respondents I am sure and we can tell you who it was. Such a concept is always available in such postings to find out more or specifics, but in general such details are best not posting about.

    And also in not deleting the thread, it is perhaps much changed to a discussion about this concept of posting specifics about such a thing. Open for discussion and debate. I listen and learn, you hopefully also listen to my opinion. That’s perhaps a valid reason in addition to the relation in the experience with them.

    Beyond all this, don’t get me wrong, I am considered this sales person’s nemisis, following years of experience with her and her assistant. I am very comfortable that anyone that runs into either of them will know what’s talked about, who it is and take it upon them selves how to deal with the situation to suite their needs. Be it that or one of my favorite suppliers, I cannot support the first post on this topic saying who it was. Sorry but that’s just not the way dirty laundry is aired. It is much better left how it is now and as an in general concept - what if there is more than just this supplier to take similar advice about?

    Sorry if not pleased about the post. Feel free to contact me or Dave or any Senior team about what I have modified if you feel so strongly that it’s dire to publically post bad experiences with suppliers. I’m of the opinion that most other members prefer not to have this company posted. This as opposed to any ETC/Selcon debates which are fine as long as not personal. Do you like Mac or PC? This verses posting something about your local computer store and it’s sales people.

    Note, I'll also post this debate to the rest of the senior team and Dave and should they wish they can change what I stated my opinion with.
     

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