Mixers/Consoles Another reason to go M32 rather than X32

JohnD

JohnD

Well-Known Member
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I'm not sure whether it's worth paying $4995 instead of about $1800 to get triple the warranty, if you don't need the higher bitrate D/A...
 
I still don't take Behringer seriously when I see their equipment, and do everything I can to replace it ASAP. You get what you pay for, IMHO. (YMMV.)
 
There are something like *half a million* X32's out there now. I'm betting that if they were untenable, Music Group would be out of business by now.

They may not be Midas, let alone SSL or DigiCo, but what they do, it appears they do perfectly acceptably.

This, in short, is not your father's Behringer.
 
Jay Ashworth said:
I'm not sure whether it's worth paying $4995 instead of about $1800 to get triple the warranty, if you don't need the higher bitrate D/A...
Click to expand...

MAP is $3999 and the full size M32 can be had for less, especially if you'll accept a B stock or store demo unit (<$3k). Store demos are considered "new" for warranty purposes....

There is an audible difference between the consoles that some users will claim is dramatic and others will say is subtle. We have both M and X in our rental shop and I prefer to mix on the Midas but I personally own an X32 and X32Rack. When I bought my full size X32, I did so with the prejudicial notion that it flat out sucks and I'd sell it off to some bar band that needed more inputs when I was done detailing all the suckiness I could muster from it. Short version is that it didn't suck... it wasn't an Avid Venue or DigiCo anything, but it was 1/10 the price of the cheapest models from Avid or DiGi... and that I wasn't going to sell mine after all.

I'd love to spec an SD7 for my next community or youth theatre gig but their budget is more like Shure SC268. The X32 is one of the compromises that allows me to design a show my client can afford.

@aaron - we're all free to have and state our opinions (seems to be the Twitter rage these days) and if you feel contaminated after seeing or touching a B-word product, I understand; I have held a negative opinion of the company's business practices from ~20 years ago when R&D by photocopier was their norm. At least they copied better quality products than they were initially designing... but things do change. The QA problems of the past have been greatly diminished, the original designs are better now that Music Group has bought the IP/companies necessary to improve the brand name, and service & support are significantly improved. We can be all hoity-toity about "making art" or we can put on shows that the public can enjoy... and I'd bet my next paycheck that NOBODY in the audience could tell what brand of console is being used to mix the audio...

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Edit ps... I see the new Midas warranty as an attempt at retaining market share and polishing the brand image. The idea that all internal parts are covered by warranty for the expected useful life of the device is appealing to accountants and organizational boards of directors.
 
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Aaron Becker said:
I still don't take Behringer seriously when I see their equipment, and do everything I can to replace it ASAP. You get what you pay for, IMHO. (YMMV.)
Click to expand...
@Aaron Becker When I read YMMV and Behringer in the same sentence, Your Mother May Vomit comes to mind.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
I'd been looking to see the M32 start to have a street price, and I hadn't seen it yet, so thanks for the update.

It's still about twice the street of the X32, so... ;-)
 
TimMc said:
MAP is $3999 and the full size M32 can be had for less, especially if you'll accept a B stock or store demo unit (<$3k). Store demos are considered "new" for warranty purposes....

There is an audible difference between the consoles that some users will claim is dramatic and others will say is subtle. We have both M and X in our rental shop and I prefer to mix on the Midas but I personally own an X32 and X32Rack. When I bought my full size X32, I did so with the prejudicial notion that it flat out sucks and I'd sell it off to some bar band that needed more inputs when I was done detailing all the suckiness I could muster from it. Short version is that it didn't suck... it wasn't an Avid Venue or DigiCo anything, but it was 1/10 the price of the cheapest models from Avid or DiGi... and that I wasn't going to sell mine after all.

I'd love to spec an SD7 for my next community or youth theatre gig but their budget is more like Shure SC268. The X32 is one of the compromises that allows me to design a show my client can afford.

@aaron - we're all free to have and state our opinions (seems to be the Twitter rage these days) and if you feel contaminated after seeing or touching a B-word product, I understand; I have held a negative opinion of the company's business practices from ~20 years ago when R&D by photocopier was their norm. At least they copied better quality products than they were initially designing... but things do change. The QA problems of the past have been greatly diminished, the original designs are better now that Music Group has bought the IP/companies necessary to improve the brand name, and service & support are significantly improved. We can be all hoity-toity about "making art" or we can put on shows that the public can enjoy... and I'd bet my next paycheck that NOBODY in the audience could tell what brand of console is being used to mix the audio...

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Edit ps... I see the new Midas warranty as an attempt at retaining market share and polishing the brand image. The idea that all internal parts are covered by warranty for the expected useful life of the device is appealing to accountants and organizational boards of directors.
Click to expand...

Point taken, sorry to offend.
 
Aaron Becker said:
Point taken, sorry to offend.
Click to expand...

Not offensive at all, Aaron, and I completely get your distrust of them... I'm just pointing out that as much as I'd have liked to punish Behringer for their past, their present doesn't give me many options to make the claim they are still evil copy cats that build crap. I still have lingering mistrust of them for their *appearance* of IP theft from Mackie and dbx (the court cases brought against B were later dismissed or found in B's favor) but their current corporate behavior is not a primary reason to purchase competing products.

If their stuff doesn't do what you or I need, we have other choices. :)
 
The X32 is a well designed, good sounding console. Anyone who says otherwise probably hasn't spent much time with one, or they have strong biases coloring their opinion. Are there better mixers? Of course.

When it was introduced, the capability it had was nothing short of incredible for the price. People tend to forget that before X32, a console with similar features was several times more expensive. If you enjoy a digital console from another brand, you still have Behringer to thank for the vast array of inexpensive digital consoles to choose from, because they lit a fire under the whole industry.

The X32 has also proven reasonably rugged and reliable. Any comparison of the X32 to Behringer's past is unfounded. Behringer set out to build a unique product and improve their name, and they did.
 
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Must be a new breed of X32's around.

What I have met were buggy consoles (like change a DCA assignment and Aux 1-4 goes to +6 on channels 1-8 (DCA was removing channel 26-28 from that DCA) )

And the build quality inside was not what would call tour friendly.
Cheap pcb, not like M32 with the fiberglass.
And spotted several components with far to wide tolerences (resistors with +/- 20% as opposed to Midas +/- 5% ) then again, those components come at 1/10 of the price in those quantities.

Talked to a few rental companies who scrapped their X32's and replaced them with either M32 or other brands.

Granted, I have seen several minor installations that was happy with their consoles as well.
 
I've worked with a half dozen in different venues and we have one in our rental stock that goes out pretty regularly. So far I haven't had a single problem with them. It definitely marked a step up in quality control and general quality/sound. Though mine are just anecdotal personal observations.
 
Søren Steinmetz said:
Must be a new breed of X32's around.

What I have met were buggy consoles (like change a DCA assignment and Aux 1-4 goes to +6 on channels 1-8 (DCA was removing channel 26-28 from that DCA) )

And the build quality inside was not what would call tour friendly.
Cheap pcb, not like M32 with the fiberglass.
And spotted several components with far to wide tolerences (resistors with +/- 20% as opposed to Midas +/- 5% ) then again, those components come at 1/10 of the price in those quantities.

Talked to a few rental companies who scrapped their X32's and replaced them with either M32 or other brands.

Granted, I have seen several minor installations that was happy with their consoles as well.
Click to expand...

If the X32 had a DCA bug as you describe, the Behringer user forum would be screaming about it. I haven't heard of that problem. Your console may have been running on an old version of firmware with a bug. Behringer seems to be good about extensively testing firmware releases, and there have been few bugs, mostly minor. When a major bug has cropped up, they have rushed out a fix, as any responsive manufacturer would.

When buying a $2,000 console, it helps to have reasonable expectations and then apply it to appropriate uses. Fiberglass PCB's are superior, but that doesn't make the X32 unreliable. Thickness and mechanical support are additional factors. I hate to admit it, but my X32 Compact slid off of a stand and literally made a face plant onto concrete. It damaged a couple of faders because those took a direct hit on the corner that hit first. I moved the sources off those two channels, and the show went on. I replaced the faders, and the mixer is as good as new. Based on the number of screws it took to disassemble, Behringer made an effort to build a rugged console for the price.

As for parts tolerances, that means nothing. A component may be employed in a way that a wider tolerance has no effect. Just to name a couple, pull-up resistors, or current control for LEDs. I have measured channel to channel analog circuitry input and output levels to be accurate to within a couple tenths of a dB.

I know one, pro user who accepts the limitations of the X32 by carrying an X32 Rack along with the full size console. For 3 RU of space and an iPad, he's got a fully capable backup console. It wouldn't be pleasant to mix a complex show on an iPad, but the show would go on. If you have a a failure with a $50K mixer, chances are you don't have a spare handy.
 
Søren Steinmetz said:
Must be a new breed of X32's around.

What I have met were buggy consoles (like change a DCA assignment and Aux 1-4 goes to +6 on channels 1-8 (DCA was removing channel 26-28 from that DCA) )

And the build quality inside was not what would call tour friendly.
Cheap pcb, not like M32 with the fiberglass.
And spotted several components with far to wide tolerences (resistors with +/- 20% as opposed to Midas +/- 5% ) then again, those components come at 1/10 of the price in those quantities.

Talked to a few rental companies who scrapped their X32's and replaced them with either M32 or other brands.

Granted, I have seen several minor installations that was happy with their consoles as well.
Click to expand...

I participate in a couple of highly trafficed professional audio forums (not Gearslutz) where there have been historic threads on the X32 and the DCA bug you describe has not been mentioned, ever. Not saying it didn't happen, but that it might have just happened to you... ;)

Of course there are differences between the X and M; Music Group would be hard pressed to get the higher price for the M if not, and to find different tolerance components would be one of those along with different AD/DA converters and the 'more magical Midas preamps'.

As for "road worthy" - I routinely work with acts that carry either or both M & X and I've not heard anecdotal references to significantly different failure rates thought to be transport-related. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen but in my observation of scores of acts using the *32 mixers there haven't been a line of band engineers or tour managers complaining. Perhaps the providers consider an X32 to be a consumable item and simple bin it when it finally fails, perhaps the tour is over before a desk fails, etc, but the anecdotal evidence does not support a claim of vastly different failure rates at this point in time.

Finally let's all remember that this is a cheap mixer - it's got lots of features and some odd limitations, but at the end of the day it's a mixer with a price point of 15%-20% (at list) of its competitors when it was released. The question to be addressed is when did we, as audio professionals, 'lower our standards' and why? If an X32 doesn't meet the standard required there are plenty of other digital mixers out there to pick from, but none of them are US$2000...
 
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I own an X32, M32, and two Pro2's. I have sent one of my pro2's to vegas to get serviced and never saw a bill. They have sent me replacement keyboards when I shredded a cable in a road case, they have sent new fader caps because my old ones were showing age, they sent me a new CF card when I was having memory issues... all free of charge no questions asked. With that though, the X32 I own which is older then the Pro2's has NEVER had an issue.

The big draw to this console for many acts is they can buy it for the price of renting a desk. Its small. Van packs easy. If it blows up you can get a new one in any city. Granted, I have never seen one blow up. If you want an ears setup you can do it on this desk very easily.

Simply put, if you want a consistent show and don't have a huge budget this desk can't be beat. The desk you know that already has your show in it is 10x better then any other desk.

It is by far the most rider friendly desk on the market. Everyone knows it. Everyone carries a show file for it. If you are under 32 channels it simply can't be beat. Being able to have any guest engineer walk in and start working is simply amazing. With our Pro2 only half of the engineers have ever touched one. With the M32 nearly every engineer has mixed on one... and they all feel perfectly comfortable.
 
Not to throw more fuel into this fire, but I know several Broadway shows running X32 Rack's on secondary systems in their audio rigs (band monitoring, backstage foldback and paging). When you see it cropping up in the highest end theater rigs right alongside the other better gear, you know it's probably a decently reliable console. It's also way cheaper than getting a Digico SD-RE or another Avid brain when you're trying to go for rack-mount audio processing, so that is a huge factor in its acceptance there, where the X32 consoles are a rounding error on the perishables budget vs a fight with the rental shop on an extra piece of major console hardware.
 
Very specifically on point:

When I first got my fingers on one about 2-1/2 years ago, I was pretty hot and heavy in the various fora for about 6 months... and one topic that came up repeatedly was "I have these. I rent them out. It's workin' out OK for me."

I just wish they'd update the documentation to cover the new features in later firmware releases, which, as of last I looked, they had not.
 
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