ATEM Mini Audio?

AudioGreg

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nope, no audio settings in the Hyperdeck mini, well other than to select the number of channels recorded. SDI embedded audio only carries what is fed into it, you can't change what's in the SDI stream without going through a processing device. And BTW, HDMI audio can only carry 8 channels of audio. The entire ATEM line only supports 2ch audio.

plug your ATEM HDMI output directly into a monitor and listen for quality there. it's good then the SDI>HDMI is causing the distortion. If it's a BMD converter I recommend updating its firmware. the ATEM outputs 1080p, older firmware did have audio issues with this at one point. current converter firmware works well.

If the audio is bad in the monitor then the problem is upstream and either in the ATEM, or the source feeding the ATEM. you have listened to the cable going into the ATEM to check quality there, right?

I've tested this with a line level source into my ATEM mini, HDMI out thru a Decimator and recorded to a Hyperdeck Mini-playback was flawless and distortion free so it's possible to get a good thru-put and recording.

EDIT-it comes to mind you never mentioned what you have going on in the ATEM mixer. Are other channels turned on, or just the mic input with your external feed? if your entire mix is on the mic input, i'd make sure you have all other faders turned off.
 
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StradivariusBone

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Yeah, it's going HDMI out from the ATEM into a Decimator MD-LX and then into the HyperDeck. Audio sources prior to the ATEM both sound fine and we did turn off all the HDMI input sources. Levels were set on the ATEM software mixer so everything was in the green, barely touching anything yellow. The meters on the HyperDeck also show no evidence of clipping. Both originators of the audio sound fine too. The Dante recordings are pristine and we're capturing 2-ch audio at the board via the USB stick off the same channels fed to the ATEM. I'll examine the HDMI out to see if that makes any difference prior to the Decimator.
 
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FMEng

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I doubt the Decimator converter would do any audio gain change, but the HyperDeck does have the capability. Once again, it has a whole mixer that has a computer interface.
 

StradivariusBone

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Everything I've set up is talking at 48KHz and 24bit. I want to say I recall seeing sample rate in the ATEM too, but I actually can't recall. I haven't touched the settings on the Hyperdeck. Next shot I get at it I will pull the HMDI output from the switcher and monitor the audio and also dig into the Hyperdeck a bit. FMEng is saying there are mixer settings and AudioGreg is saying there isn't. Time will tell! Or my buddy Manuel.
 

cac2244

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Like everyone else on the planet, I am now becoming an expert in live and not-so-live video production. The church I work for has recently acquiring an ATEM Mini switcher to eventually feed a livestream. For now we're just doing pre-recorded. Our workflow has been to record multiple cameras all feeding the switcher and capture audio from an M32 with a laptop configured with Dante Virtual Soundcard (which works great!). Since it's not live, I'll do some work on the tracks on the laptop, send the audio to my boss who then stitches it together with the video as needed. We've tried a few things to feed the ATEM mini with an audio feed however, with limited success. So far it's just distorted and sounds like it's clipping the input to the ATEM, but it's fine at the sources. There doesn't appear to be any way to monitor audio at the ATEM either.

First, it does have two inputs labeled Mic 1 and 2. From everything I've read online, it looks like these are looking for unbalanced stereo input, like a standard 3.5mm headphone connection. I configured an output from the DVS laptop to send and we got signal, but on the playback it's always distorted. Then it occurred to me yesterday that the HDMI connections are probably also feeding in audio from the cameras. This ATEM Mini seems to be marketed toward fancy YouTubers, so it would make sense that they'd utilize camera audio as well. The software that configures the switcher seems limited at best, and I haven't had a chance to really dig into it yet, but I can't seem to find anything to modify other than enabling the mic 1/2 inputs and adjusting the input gain.

My thought now is to bypass the switcher entirely for audio and feed it directly to a computer that will run OBS via some sort of USB interface. I'm not sure if OBS has the capability to compensate for latency though. Longterm thought is to use DVS running off the Dante to send audio to a control room that's isolated acoustically and then inject that with the video feed to go live. Is this a workable path?
On the mic inputs I have the exact same problem... Mic input is horrible no matter what I feed. I have tried with my Rode Wireless go, and garbage, with my Shure SM58. Also with mics on the camera, through HDMI is also very bad. I am starting to think that I have a faulty unit.
 

StradivariusBone

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So success! Finally! As it turns out there was a firmware update for both the ATEM and the Hyperdeck. My boss who has been working with those primarily said there might've been a note in the update log about audio quality but he wasn't exactly sure. We pulled a feed directly from the ATEM and found that the quality was better, but still fuzzy when we recorded to the Hyperdeck. It turns out that the metering they use in the app is a bit off. Those of us used to being OK with dipping into yellow will actually clip out the ATEM. We had the gain knob set to almost the bottom and then it was able to work fine. We also acquired a separate computer so we can monitor the ATEM's software page and run slides for the bottom third at the same time, which helped. I'd recommend dropping the gain down a lot and making sure the firmware is up to date. I haven't had a moment to read through the notes to confirm or deny. It might have just been the gain was still too high even though the software said it was not clipping. I'm not sure. It's annoying not being able to monitor at the switcher, but otherwise we're now pretty happy with this. Only a month or so after the fact.
 

josh88

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I'm actually picking up a mini to use with OBS soon as well. My answer to this whole problem was to just use a separate audio interface into the OBS computer and adding an audio capture to feed it separately from my board along with the video capture from the cameras/Atem mini.
 

BCAP

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I apologize about slightly derailing here but my question is very closely related. I'd be happy to start another thread if necessary.


For a year or so I have been looking for a portable video streaming setup that would let me switch my 4 existing video cameras with HDMI outs and steam that out to YouTube or Facebook, or another content delivery network perhaps. And to do this at different venues - conference halls, perhaps music venues, etc. I would like my client to be able to send their participants a link to the streaming "event" maybe even monetized. I have done some research but I'm at a point where I think I need to ask for some opinions.


Similar to the OP I would like to deliver audio via the outputs of my mixing board to provide nicely mixed audio.


The equipment I think I'll need:

- Something like a Roland V-1HD video switcher. It has RCA audio ins - not ideal as I'd like balanced but I'll take it over 1/8". It does have a preview out which is nice, and additional control via USB.

- An HDMI to CAT5 extender devices to get the video to the switcher?

- A streaming box something like the AJA HELO H.264 to bring the audio and video out to the provider.

- A streaming CDN service like www.dacast.com

- Decent ethernet connection in the venue in question; or, some other way to get the stream up there when the venue has none.



My questions are:

- Is anyone currently running a setup like this? Pros/Cons, is the equipment I suggest feasible - or is there something better?

- Is there a streaming web forum or another resource where I could get more information about how to do what I want to do?

- I too would be concerned about video / audio delay and synch. I imagine it's hard to know for sure whether it would be an issue or not with the kind of setup above.

- How does one go about ensuring the venue is made responsible to pay for appropriate royalties and rights if any of the video content being streamed is copyrighted; but more importantly, my service would be indemnified.


Thanks in advance!
 

MRW Lights

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You have a few options here... you've done a good job at collecting lots of parts and peices to get the job done. There are simpler in the box solutions that may help, though they also depend on your budget. Before going in to corporate broadcast I ran a performance venue with a setup similar to what you're looking at with a broadcast box consisting of a BlackMagic ATEM Studio and Telestream's Wirecast (an alternative to dacast). I had a sony PTZ controller for my cameras and an XKey that acted as the switcher for Wirecast. Audio was handled by the DM2K in our studio, but as long as you're getting an audio feed the ATEM Studio will take that in. You may want to consider a clocking device of some type, either to sync to the venue or standalone to bring everything together before going in to your switcher and out to the web. Another option to the AJA box is the blackmagic webcaster.

If you need a cell solution for locations that either won't provide you access to the internet, or you can't rely on it, you can go full buget up to the Live U Solo. Super fan of the Live U product line and that is a pretty slick sling it to the cloud box.

Now on to the biggie regarding performance, venue and streaming licensing from NOT A LAWYER, but someone who deals with the lawyers and process often. You can try all you want and hopefully it's not a battle to get the venue to produce the appropriate documentation. You can ask them to sign an agreement stating that you as a contractor do not accept any liability and that "they" are solely responsible for obtaining all appropriate rights thereby indemnifying you from any and all liability during or after performance/broadcast. HOWEVER, ignorance is not bliss. The wilful production, capture, broadcast, or redistribution of copyrighted material by any party may be subject to the full penalties of the law. If you know someone is going to commit a crime and you help them commit the crime you can say it's not your fault all you want, you were there and you did it. I have left several jobs because of similar issues of it's okay we're a school, or it's okay they won't come after us.... at some point morals cost more than the paycheck, but that's your call to make as it was mine.

The important things to note here are: a performance agreement does not typically include recording rights other than those for archival purposes only strictly without distribution. A licensing agreement to capture a performance does typically include the right to stream the performance. Most streaming licensing agreements allow for the 1 time airing synchronously of a live event and may not be available for replay or download during or upon the end of the live performance.
 

StradivariusBone

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I'm actually picking up a mini to use with OBS soon as well. My answer to this whole problem was to just use a separate audio interface into the OBS computer and adding an audio capture to feed it separately from my board along with the video capture from the cameras/Atem mini.
I just did that yesterday (not with a ATEM mini, but the Blackmagic capture thunderbolt thing). OBS handled it flawlessly. I seriously think someone with enough python knowledge could find a way to make that program cure COVID. It is so unbelievably useful for freeware.
 

StradivariusBone

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I apologize about slightly derailing here but my question is very closely related. I'd be happy to start another thread if necessary.


For a year or so I have been looking for a portable video streaming setup that would let me switch my 4 existing video cameras with HDMI outs and steam that out to YouTube or Facebook, or another content delivery network perhaps. And to do this at different venues - conference halls, perhaps music venues, etc. I would like my client to be able to send their participants a link to the streaming "event" maybe even monetized. I have done some research but I'm at a point where I think I need to ask for some opinions.


Similar to the OP I would like to deliver audio via the outputs of my mixing board to provide nicely mixed audio.
So our setup includes 4 HDMI sources for video into an ATEM mini. That goes to a HDMI to SDI converter to a HyperDeck Mini to capture it on SD cards and from there it will output to a BlackMagic Mini Recorder which will then connect via Thunderbolt to the stream computer. We are planning on getting an X32 production console to capture a Dante feed from the main board and use that to mix down the audio in the production room and then into an interface to feed into OBS to fire up the stream.

Our trick is that we have two venues in one campus. My thought, rather than buy two of everything is to find a way to make both venues networked to the same production booth. There is no need to simultaneously stream from both venues, but one will go live at 9:30am and then next at 11am. Dante is easy. The room will be near one venue, so copper connections to the switch will be fine, but the other one will need fiber. Video is more problematic. I'm wondering if just running individual SDI feeds from each camera position to the production room makes the most sense, but we are exploring IP options. The distance is the problem. NDI? I think that's what it's called, is a network video option, but I've heard it is quite expensive.

Another route I'm going to explore a bit more involves gear from Kramer. They have some sort of HDMI via IP setup that allows a source to be broadcast over a network and then picked up by decoding boxes that output the HDMI to a display. This seems viable for overflow rooms, rather than relying on the livestream and taxing our network more.
 

StradivariusBone

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There is existing network but we are looking at running Cat5/6 specifically for the new setup. Cameras all feed HDMI and the switcher only accepts HDMI. The catch is getting 2-4 video feeds from a building that's probably over 300' as the cable flies. The far building is also the "traditional worship" and therefore also "less cool with camera people setting up shop in a visible space" crew. So we are looking at PTZ in there.
 
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TimMc

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I don't think gigabit networks will have enough throughput for 4 HD cameras but video over IP isn't my mother tongue. If you have to go fibre things get expensive really fast. The fibre itself isn't outrageous, it's all the widgets, doohickeys, thingamabobs and gak to convert signals, multiplex them onto the fibre, demux, distribute and convert back again that turn into the real money.
 

Ben Stiegler

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This is probably fantasy, but would it not be great if there was a way to control camera's bitrate/quality in these limited link situations, so that when they are in preview mode, they are sending fast thumbnails, but not full-on stream. Then, when punched live, the datarate goes to full, several frames later the take or dissolve happens, and whatever source came off live goes to a lower data rate.
 

FMEng

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I've been researching the same question. Yes, 1 GHz IP networks have plenty of bandwidth for multiple cameras. I'm strongly considering a Newtek Tricaster Mini HD-4 for my church. It's a one box solution for switching, camera control, recording, and streaming. It connects to the cameras via the NDI standard, so it's one, network cable to each camera. That one cable does the power via PoE+, the video, and the pan/tilt/zoom control. The Tricaster can speak Dante for audio, and has analog line inputs, too. Newtek sells PTZ cameras, and they sell software drivers for Sony, Panasonic, and some other cameras, too.

The system likely costs a little more than mix and match systems, but it is more flexible and a much easier to install. It seems to be a thoroughly complete and well thought out product. The university I used to work for has used Tricasters for several years for streaming concerts and other events. I asked their AV guru how he likes the system. He recommends it and said they now have cameras in several venues across campus all connected to a control room in their office.
 

StradivariusBone

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That Tricaster box looks pretty remarkable. We've already chomped on the switcher and production gear though, so it might be overkill. I've got to read more into it, but the NDI stuff looks promising. Each camera gets a input box and then you put the output in the production room next to the switcher? The pricetag is waaaaaay up there though. The mini-HD-4 is $10k! Yee!

Is there a setup like Dante for video? I guess it wouldn't be too crazy to setup some kinda server at the venue side and then create streams that could be picked up by a client in the production room.
 
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FMEng

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If the camera supports NDI/HX then it does not need a converter. You would need a converter for cameras with SDI or HDMI outputs. They also make Tricaster models that include HDMI and SDI inputs, along with NDI. The mini HD-4 has a street price of $6k. I see the Tricaster for use where the production has to be done by one operator, using PTZ cameras. For the larger church, where you have a team of people to run cameras, there are other solutions.
 

TimMc

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I've been researching the same question. Yes, 1 GHz IP networks have plenty of bandwidth for multiple cameras. I'm strongly considering a Newtek Tricaster Mini HD-4 for my church. It's a one box solution for switching, camera control, recording, and streaming. It connects to the cameras via the NDI standard, so it's one, network cable to each camera. That one cable does the power via PoE+, the video, and the pan/tilt/zoom control. The Tricaster can speak Dante for audio, and has analog line inputs, too. Newtek sells PTZ cameras, and they sell software drivers for Sony, Panasonic, and some other cameras, too.

The system likely costs a little more than mix and match systems, but it is more flexible and a much easier to install. It seems to be a thoroughly complete and well thought out product. The university I used to work for has used Tricasters for several years for streaming concerts and other events. I asked their AV guru how he likes the system. He recommends it and said they now have cameras in several venues across campus all connected to a control room in their office.
I guess I was thinking of uncompressed video. With H.264 you can squeeze 4 HD signals on a gigabit network. Probably been on too many broadcast webinars to think outside uncompressed video box...

I've not seen the newest batch of Tricasters in the wild but a couple of years ago was providing sound and lights for an even where the Tricaster Mini pooped out it's video card. It was just old enough that Newtek didn't have spares, odd enough that finding one new, anywhere within a 3 hour drive wasn't happening. Finally a replacement was found at a local computer salvage shop. The moral of the story was "always have a Plan B." The streaming guys had a work around but it didn't have the production values the Tricaster provided.

That said, that's the only field failure of a Tricaster I've witnessed that was not the result of pilot error.