Automated Fixtures, Foggers, and Dimmers

You bet I was at Theatre Fest! It was the best three days of my life! I really didn't like the workshops as there were not a lot of lighting geared workshops, and I didnt attend any of the lighting workshops offered anyway becuase they seemed to basic so I focused more on my weak spot, senic design. The allstate production of Hairspray! was amazing and from what I've seen on youtube (I know its not the best source) the lighting and set was a million times better than that of the Broadway show. I will deffinatly be applying to be on the allstate production team for the 2010 production of Urinetown, my favorite musical.

Anyway, back to the lights. There is a DMX port on stage, but I really dont know what to call it. Its a place to plug the board into to control the lights. So does that make it a dimmer input? So if I have to run a DMX cable out to the stage do I have to set up some sort of DMX distributor to service all of my different fixtures (like if I had 2 moving heads and a hazor)?
 
Anyway, back to the lights. There is a DMX port on stage, but I really dont know what to call it. Its a place to plug the board into to control the lights. So does that make it a dimmer input? So if I have to run a DMX cable out to the stage do I have to set up some sort of DMX distributor to service all of my different fixtures (like if I had 2 moving heads and a hazor)?

That is a DMX IN. You need a DMX Out. That means you would have to run a DMX out cable to the stage. As for a breakout, it would depend on how you run it. If all of your DMX Controlled equipment will be on one electric/raceway/pipe/whatever, then no. You can just run one line and daisy chain it between fixtures, with a terminator in the last piece of the puzzle. However, if your hazer is going to be on, say, your third electric and your moving heads are on your first, then I would get a splitter and run a separate line to each electric.

So, in that case, what you could do is run DMX through a conduit from the booth to the stage just inside your proscenium arch. Then mount a splitter (See this thread) right near the port. (Note: You will need to put the splitter near an electrical outlet that is NOT DIMMED. Chances are you will need an electrician to run DMX to your stage, might as well have them run you an outlet to the same place as well.) Then run a DMX Line to each electric. Also, when running lines, you will have to figure out a way to be able to lower each electric. Personally, I would not run it next to the power cables of your electric as the (possibly) large magnetic field around these cables can mess with your signal.

I hope that made sense. If you could post a plan of your space - even if it is only lines drawn in paint with room labels - that would help. Label where your dimmers are as well.
 
I think that we have overcomplicated this process for Synchronize. First of all, back to the basics. Things like hazers (note the spelling) and moving lights DO NOT require nor want dimmed power (save for the VL1000T w/o dimmer). So yes, you can plug them into any standard outlet that is connected to a properly rated circuit. Now, some of the higher output MLs require 208V power which you probably don't have, so you wouldn't want to rent any fixtures that need it.

After the fixture or device has power it needs to get a DMX line from somewhere. This is where your second output on the console comes in handy. As has been mentioned, if you have units that hang on the same position or are all on the deck then the easiest way to get data to them is to daisy chain from one to the next. If you can't do that for every device then you will need a splitter. As you are just renting you can rent a splitter as well.

So, what you would do is run a line from the second output of your console to a splitter, from the splitter you would run lines to your MLs and to your hazer and any other devices. You would leave your first output connected as usual. Yes, this means running a line from wherever your console is to the stage, but since it is temporary you don't have to do what lieperjp said about running conduit and all that. Since you are putting together a rental package you just need to make sure that you include whatever length of DMX cable you need to make the run (you also need to run it in a pretty way so that you don't trip some actor's 90 year-old grandmother).

However, if you have easy access to the existing data line from the console to the dimmers you can also use universe 1 to do the job (that is unless you have 512 dimmers). If the existing data line has a connector on it that plugs into the dimmers you can put a splitter in at that junction and then take an output of the splitter to go into your dimmers and the other outputs to go to your other gear. This just may save you running a really long length of DMX cable, in the grand scheme of your rental it probably doesn't save too much money.

Assuming that you use universe 2 to get the job done you would set the starting address of your first ML as 1. If the MLs used 32 channels, you would set the starting address of the second ML as 33, your hazer would then be 65. When you went to patch them in on the board your first ML would be dimmer/address/output (whatever terminology your console uses) 513, the second unit would be 545, and the hazer would be 577. If the console you are using has some kind of fixture library you may be able to just tell it the starting address of each fixture, what channel you want it at, and what type of fixture it is. If your console does not have a fixture library you may just need to patch each control attribute of the fixtures to their own channels.

If you go the route of just using universe 1 it isn't that much different. Assuming that you have 96 dimmers, your fist fixture would be addressed at 97, and so on. Patching would be the same as I described above just substituting the lower numbered addresses.
 
I think that we have overcomplicated this process for Synchronize. First of all, back to the basics. Things like hazers (note the spelling) and moving lights DO NOT require nor want dimmed power (save for the VL1000T w/o dimmer). So yes, you can plug them into any standard outlet that is connected to a properly rated circuit. Now, some of the higher output MLs require 208V power which you probably don't have, so you wouldn't want to rent any fixtures that need it.

After the fixture or device has power it needs to get a DMX line from somewhere. This is where your second output on the console comes in handy. As has been mentioned, if you have units that hang on the same position or are all on the deck then the easiest way to get data to them is to daisy chain from one to the next. If you can't do that for every device then you will need a splitter. As you are just renting you can rent a splitter as well.

So, what you would do is run a line from the second output of your console to a splitter, from the splitter you would run lines to your MLs and to your hazer and any other devices. You would leave your first output connected as usual. Yes, this means running a line from wherever your console is to the stage, but since it is temporary you don't have to do what lieperjp said about running conduit and all that. Since you are putting together a rental package you just need to make sure that you include whatever length of DMX cable you need to make the run (you also need to run it in a pretty way so that you don't trip some actor's 90 year-old grandmother).

However, if you have easy access to the existing data line from the console to the dimmers you can also use universe 1 to do the job (that is unless you have 512 dimmers). If the existing data line has a connector on it that plugs into the dimmers you can put a splitter in at that junction and then take an output of the splitter to go into your dimmers and the other outputs to go to your other gear. This just may save you running a really long length of DMX cable, in the grand scheme of your rental it probably doesn't save too much money.

Assuming that you use universe 2 to get the job done you would set the starting address of your first ML as 1. If the MLs used 32 channels, you would set the starting address of the second ML as 33, your hazer would then be 65. When you went to patch them in on the board your first ML would be dimmer/address/output (whatever terminology your console uses) 513, the second unit would be 545, and the hazer would be 577. If the console you are using has some kind of fixture library you may be able to just tell it the starting address of each fixture, what channel you want it at, and what type of fixture it is. If your console does not have a fixture library you may just need to patch each control attribute of the fixtures to their own channels.

If you go the route of just using universe 1 it isn't that much different. Assuming that you have 96 dimmers, your fist fixture would be addressed at 97, and so on. Patching would be the same as I described above just substituting the lower numbered addresses.

To sum it up, what he said. Although if you have fixed lighting battons, there is no need for a splitter even if your units are on different line sets. Although if you are renting, then yes a splitter is no big deal in the grand scope of a moving light package, so you might as well.

Mike
 
Thanks for all the help, this is really great stuff. So I would not be object to running a "permanent" DMX line up to the stage because one day I would like to see this school have a couple of moving heads or scanners in thier ownership. I could probably find an existing conduit to run the line through, if not I get along with the building manager very well ;). If thats the case and I end up running a line trough the celing, would I just use that "regular" cable or is there something that insulated differently thats made to be run through conduit that I should use?

As for power I could run an extension cord up there (yes, proper gauge ofcouse) but is there something I can do as far as a more permanent solution. Because I'm planning on buying that hazer and using it for a lot of shows.
 
Thanks for all the help, this is really great stuff. So I would not be object to running a "permanent" DMX line up to the stage because one day I would like to see this school have a couple of moving heads or scanners in thier ownership. I could probably find an existing conduit to run the line through, if not I get along with the building manager very well ;). If thats the case and I end up running a line trough the celing, would I just use that "regular" cable or is there something that insulated differently thats made to be run through conduit that I should use?

As for power I could run an extension cord up there (yes, proper gauge ofcouse) but is there something I can do as far as a more permanent solution. Because I'm planning on buying that hazer and using it for a lot of shows.

DMX line is low voltage, so there is nothing in the NEC that concerns it. I just tuck it out of the way nicely and move on. For a permanent line you use Belden 9841 or 9842, it is twisted pair cable and must be terminated in a specific way. I would just tell the electrician to run it with the conduit instead of pulling it through or running more conduit.

As far as permanent power, you can have circuits run, just have a qualified electrician run dedicated non-dimming circuits to your fly rail and then run extensions (so you can move the hazer).

Mike
 
if a device comes with an Edison/parallel-blade u-ground/NEMA 5-15 plug on it,
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use an (appropriately-rated) extension cord to plug it into a wall outlet..

As an aside, a lot of us who do corporate and event production use "edison" plugs on all of our 110v stuff. All my S4 and other conventional fixtures have "edison" plugs because most times we're using tree dimmers, going straight into the house wall outlet, or something along that line.
 
Somebody asked to see a diagram of my facility. Here it is. Basic and somewhat sloppy. I can scan the schematic from the installer tomorrow after school.

The ovals are raceways, the small balack squares are the DMX ins, and the large black rectangle is the dimmer rack.
 

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Actually if you are going to run a permanent DMX cable run you do not have to use the expensive Belden Cable. You can also use CAT5 legally as it has been certified for use in permamenet DMX runs by USITT. You can find the Pin Out on the website for CAT5: USITT DMX512 FAQ


DMX line is low voltage, so there is nothing in the NEC that concerns it. I just tuck it out of the way nicely and move on. For a permanent line you use Belden 9841 or 9842, it is twisted pair cable and must be terminated in a specific way. I would just tell the electrician to run it with the conduit instead of pulling it through or running more conduit.

As far as permanent power, you can have circuits run, just have a qualified electrician run dedicated non-dimming circuits to your fly rail and then run extensions (so you can move the hazer).

Mike
 
That is a DMX IN. You need a DMX Out. That means you would have to run a DMX out cable to the stage.

This is not always true, alot of times there is a DMX port in the booth and on stage and there is as stated in this thread. However even though the port is labled DMX in, when the board is pluged into the booth port, the stage port or vice versa will replicate the DMX signal and can be used as a DMX out. Is this legal and the best way to do it, maybee not. However in the terms of simplicity in this case it might be worth a shot. I've used this method several times for a number of movers and hazers and have not yet run into an issue. It's work everytime in every venue I have been in so I don't see an issue with it at all in this case. A couple of movers and a hazer should not cause any issues.
 
This is not always true, alot of times there is a DMX port in the booth and on stage and there is as stated in this thread. However even though the port is labled DMX in, when the board is pluged into the booth port, the stage port or vice versa will replicate the DMX signal and can be used as a DMX out. Is this legal and the best way to do it, maybee not. However in the terms of simplicity in this case it might be worth a shot. I've used this method several times for a number of movers and hazers and have not yet run into an issue. It's work everytime in every venue I have been in so I don't see an issue with it at all in this case. A couple of movers and a hazer should not cause any issues.

Legal, I don't see why it wouldn't be, however there is good reason why you shouldn't do this. The DMX lines really don't like being paralleled together, hence why we have active splitters. Just soldering two DMX cables into one connector can generate severe reflections in the line even if the solder job is done well. Also with passive splitting you run the risk of double terminating your line if you terminate both legs off the split. Both scenarios above can cause erroneous signal transmission and can make sensitive gear like scrollers and MLs act wonky.
 
Yes it could but as I have stated I have done this several times and have yet to run into an issue. However for a real simple setup such as a couple of movers especialy in a high school you could prob get away with it. For a large rig I would NOT recommend it.


Legal, I don't see why it wouldn't be, however there is good reason why you shouldn't do this. The DMX lines really don't like being paralleled together, hence why we have active splitters. Just soldering two DMX cables into one connector can generate severe reflections in the line even if the solder job is done well. Also with passive splitting you run the risk of double terminating your line if you terminate both legs off the split. Both scenarios above can cause erroneous signal transmission and can make sensitive gear like scrollers and MLs act wonky.
 
Yes it could but as I have stated I have done this several times and have yet to run into an issue. However for a real simple setup such as a couple of movers especialy in a high school you could prob get away with it. For a large rig I would NOT recommend it.

I never ever ever split DMX without a signal boost. I know techs that will use a simple y mic splitter to split a DMX signal, but I would never do it. That is just me.

Mike
 
I never ever ever split DMX without a signal boost. I know techs that will use a simple y mic splitter to split a DMX signal, but I would never do it. That is just me.

Mike

And a hearty HUZZAH to you, Mark.

As previously stated, splitting DMX in that fashion repeatedly is similar to driving a car with half the oil drained out. Sure you can do it, but when it fails... it could embarrasing and costly.
 
And a hearty HUZZAH to you, Mark.

As previously stated, splitting DMX in that fashion repeatedly is similar to driving a car with half the oil drained out. Sure you can do it, but when it fails... it could embarrasing and costly.

I don't want to start an argumant as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't see how it would be embarrasing if you tested everything and all was communicating well. As far as costly, well where would the cost be?? If DMX fixtures respond properly through setup and rehersals it is not going to just decide to quit during a show cause it doesn't like you. If it does you have other issues. As far as standards and what you should do and not do well thats another story. I usually will experiment with things (besides pyro) and find what works well. As far as standards well the manufactures aren't following them to the T so why should I?? Think about that everytime you see a DMX device with a 3-pin connector on it when the standard states it should NEVER be 3-pin, only 5-pin!! As far as pins 4 and 5 well its for secondary data which has not been used yet. However if they wanted to revise DMX to use these pins, well good luck getting all the equipment and cable to pass what was supposed to be standard.
 
If DMX fixtures respond properly through setup and rehersals it is not going to just decide to quit during a show cause it doesn't like you. If it does you have other issues. As far as standards and what you should do and not do well thats another story.

When a corporate event takes place and a DMX reflection sends a few (if not all) moving lights into an unintended ballyhoo, there could be a financial drawback (not to mention an embarrassment to explain). Adding just one more fixture to a run could pass the litmus test of a rehearsal, only to lock up during a live performance. That's the nature of our beloved DMX. There are a number of similar threads within the archives for this situation.

No one is forced to follow the standards, and if select manufacturers decide to offer both 3 pin as well as 5 pin connections, I guess your dicision to split the signal is your risk.

'Nuff said-
 
This is not always true, alot of times there is a DMX port in the booth and on stage and there is as stated in this thread. However even though the port is labled DMX in, when the board is plugged into the booth port, the stage port or vice versa will replicate the DMX signal and can be used as a DMX out. Is this legal and the best way to do it, maybe not. However in the terms of simplicity in this case it might be worth a shot. ...
Although against recommended practice, I too, have done this, but strongly suggest if going this route, ALWAYS put an Opto-Isolator on the stage input/output. One will also need to fabricate a cable with 5pin Female XLRs on each end.
 
When a corporate event takes place and a DMX reflection sends a few (if not all) moving lights into an unintended ballyhoo, there could be a financial drawback (not to mention an embarrassment to explain). Adding just one more fixture to a run could pass the litmus test of a rehearsal, only to lock up during a live performance. That's the nature of our beloved DMX. There are a number of similar threads within the archives for this situation.

No one is forced to follow the standards, and if select manufacturers decide to offer both 3 pin as well as 5 pin connections, I guess your dicision to split the signal is your risk.

'Nuff said-

I've never seen or heard of a DMX setup being stable though programming and rehearsals and then locking during a performance cause it just felt like it, usually when this happends it's because of a failure of equipment on the chain or a cable gets damaged. DMX is not that complicated and mysterious as people make it out to be it's actually a very simple and robust of a protocol. And as I have stated in this thread for a high school maybee a quick cost effective solution but not good for common practice which I agree.
 
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If DMX fixtures respond properly through setup and rehersals it is not going to just decide to quit during a show cause it doesn't like you.

I beg to differ, semi-unrelated, but we were doing sound for an honor society induction and I decided that we should probably have a backup read just in case something crazy happens. Well, something crazy happened, and the back up that we tested didn't work. And the back up backup didn't work. We tried like 4 different cables before we got to one that worked.

Anything that plugs into the wall does have a mind of its own and has what it believes to be its right to not work at its discretion.
 

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