Basic Dimmers

Let's say I'm in the market for ~96 permanent install 2.4kw dimmers. I know nothing about dimmer technology, nor about sinewaves or any of that stuff. If I was going to get them installed, I'd need to hire a contractor/lighting company to do it for me, so I don't know how much control over what brand anyways--it'd probably be by Barbizon, and I'd trust them over there.

Irregardless. Can you guys just tell me about some simple, cheap, reliable brands/products of dimmers for my own personal knowledge? I try to keep up with that information for other products, but for dimmers, I haven't a clue...


EDIT: Ballpark estimate. How much would this cost? Rounded to the nearest, I don't know, $5,000.

 

ETC Sensor+ Sinewave dimmer modules are pretty close to "top of the line".

But ETC standard Sensor modules will do fine for all but the most discriminating venues.

NSI makes some good stuff, rather durable too. It always seems that NSI's consoles are "stubborn" in a bad way, but their dimmers are definitely "stubborn" in a good way - they just keep on going! I prefer the "DS" series, with the individually replaceable dimmer and control modules, but still maintaining the 19" rack format.

Colortran (now under Leviton along with NSI) makes some pretty good install dimmers, I know a place that has had a colortran 96 rack for quite a few years (10 or so) and it's still chugging along fine (I can't say the same for the original Colortran console - an Encore - it was upgraded to an ETC Express - and I got the Encore to fix up, but you still have to leave it on for it to maintain cues.)

 

Did you replace the batteries??

 

ETC's probably the best bet. I don't know what the status is on the "new line of consoles to replace the Express," but if they take too long in coming or are too expensive, I'm going to say screw it, and buy an Express 24/48.


Edit: Hate to be pushy, but do you guys have any idea at all about price? I'd like to find out, like...within the next hour, though I realize that's a huuuuge wish.

 

$35K. That's a ballpark for the ETC 96 rack.

I priced an NSI Topaz 96 rack, fully loaded, at $30K though...

And you could get a set of 8 NSI 12x2.4K DS Rack Dimmers with a rack and wiring for about $20K or $25K.

None of this includes labor costs, so tack on another two thousand at least for that.

EDIT: The NSI DS series solution will actually only run you about $15K. And the modules are interchangeable. That price includes a seven hundred dollar, 35 space rack for the dimmers. While not the best solution, it's reliable and MUCH cheaper.

If you have the bux go with ETC sensor or NSI Topaz dimming.

 

Put simply, !

Thanks, though. I may have run into some money for my theater, and right now we have a basically unusable board, 30 working 20 year old dimmers on a dangerous hard-patch system, rusty 20 year old fixtures, and I need to figure out what to spend money on.

edit: Besides Van...any other thoughts on NSI? I might have $50k, tops, astronomically, for this whole project. There is no "future" in my school, we're already 20, 25 years behind...

 

ETC, Strand and NSI/Leviton/Colortran are all good choices. I have worked with all three and for basic needs you would probably be happy with any of them. Most recently I've consulted on installs that used NSI/Leviton/Colortran, a few years ago I did some Strands and quite a few years ago some ETC Sensors.

 

Thanks soooo much, everyone. It definitely looks like NSI is going to be the best bet if/when this ever happens. My entire auditorium hasn't been upgraded in about 25 years, so I'm just trying to get it somewhere close to normal. Meaning I need the cheapest of everything.

 

While I am all for cost efficient pricing options out there, beware what you get from internet retailers. Some of them really do have some good prices, but what happens if something gets screwed up in shipping? How good are they about fixing it?

I would much rather buy from a local dealer who is going to be there to support me at 5 o'clock on Saturday afternoon when my board crashes 3 hours before curtain.

But that's just my opinion, and it's biased, as I used to work for a dealer.

But I do agree that you need to find a local dealer and have them look at your space and make some recommendations. It is their job to stay atop the latest technology and they should know how to layout a system that will be good, not only now, but be able to adapt and grow with the newer technologies in the years to come.

 

Well, it depends on how long you are going to be there

Montgomery county is in the process of renovating the 1976-era high school theaters (4 of them). One of them (Walter Johnson) is getting 192 Strand dimmers, and a Light Palette Classic as part of the upgrade (along with a Clancy motorized fly system, a Yamaha digital mix console, and 3 video projectors ) I've heard other schools are getting ETC dimmers w/Congo, it just depents on the contractor. (Parlights in Frederick is doing WJ, you might give them a call for pricing for Strand stuff)

I believe Whitman's theater was built around 1980 (just after I graduated) and probably has the same system that WJ had. I would expect it to be next on the county's list of renovations (but that might still be a couple of years out.)

Getting rid of the old slider patch should be the first concern... so you will need a number of dimmers; 96 would probably cover 1 curcuit-per-dimmer in your existing space. However, as others have pointed out, it's just as important to have something to plug into those circuits... so getting something decent for $50k may be difficult.

the $2k mentioned for installation is WAY low. That MIGHT get power to the dommers, but not much else. Expect to spend as much on the install as you do on the dimmers. Even if you don't run new circuits, the cost of splicing into the existing ones at the slider patch is going to be pretty high... that is if they are even still usable. I know at WJ the SO cable was basically dead where it conencted to the on-stage electrics (the insulation was brittle, and the conductors had lost all of their flex.) [Unless you can get the school system electricians to do the work... then it's not an outside contractor, and may save you some $$$]

If the county will be renovating in the near future, then if you've got some money to spend, I'd get some Moving Lights... they won't depend on your existing dimmers to run, and will still be usable after the renovation. (And, probably won't be part of any renovation) Be grateful for what you have, one of the other schools only had 7 of their 32 dimmers still working...

 

Are you still running on the original board? If so, a quick fix:

Get a DMX to Analog converter box, and wire it in in place of the board. Then get your choice of boards (or a PC system) with DMX out. That was what kept WJ running for the last few years...

 

I see your point. I am not trying to start an argument here at all. It's your own personal preference. I have just come to the conclusion that I am tired of always going for the lowest price. I would rather have a relationship with a person or people at a specific place that I can call and talk to or go in and see rather than call someplace across the country and not know the person that I am talking to.

Plus - once I develop the relationship, they are more likely to be looking out for my interests. If they go to LDI and see something that might be useful to me, they can come back and tell me about it. Is the guy selling stuff at the lowest price going to do that?

Everyone in the business side of this business is in it to make money - as long as they are not out to screw me over, I am ok with that.

 

Wow, this took off quick.

Fredthe, well what do you know, another MoCo man, you're like, the third on CB I've found (so far). All I know is, my principal hinted we might be able to get some private donations to upgrade the theater; I haven't the slightest idea about any renovation schedule, but I'll be sure to mention it to him if he hasn't already checked that out. Wouldn't that figure. If this little project goes through, I'll have missed using the equipment. If we're upgraded in a couple years...how unbelievably frustrating. (I heard about WJ, but no specifics. Dayummnnn.)

The board isn't the original, we already have the DMX/Analog box, but we're using a Strand MX-24 which is in terrible condition and can hold all of 96 cues. Ugh.

The 1980 year sounds perfectly consistent, the install tags on everything electric is, well, 1980.

As far as the internet/dealer debate, in all honesty I'd rather go with the local dealer. I know about Barbizon, and I think we've rented some gear from Parlights, but just for these ballpark estimates to shoot over to my principal (who honestly knows nothing about theater), the internet and MSRP's do just that.

Thanks for the replies!

 

On the more technical side:

You have essentially 2 styles of dimmer systems in use today, modular and hard wired.

A modular system - such as the ETC Sinewave, ETC Sensor, Strand C21, Colortran or ET Capio systems have dimmers made up of paired 2.4kw dimmers on a removable module.

A hard wired system, such as ETC Smartpak, Dove, Leprecon, NSI, etc... has (typically) 12 - 2.4kw dimmers in a 19" rack mount case, complete with breakers, chokes and output panel.

Either can be used in a permanent install. The modular systems tend to cost more, but have the advantage of ease of component replacement if something fails - I.E. you can buy extra dimmer and/or control module components to have as spares. The hard wired systems involve some minor surgery to get a dimmer SSR (Solid State Switching Relay) replaced. If you are not comfortable opening up a hard wired pack, or have no staff to do so, then perhaps a modular system is a better choice. In general though, all this stuff is very robust gear and failures are generally infrequent in a permanent install, if the folks using it know what they're doing.

As to consoles: The trend right now, among the higher end gear - ETC, Strand/ET is for the consoles to communicate to the dimming systems via Cat5 Ethernet wiring using a proprietary communications protocol over E-Net (as in - ETC will not talk to Strand, which won't talk Artnet, or Hog or Grand MA, etc...). All such systems allow the addition of Nodes, that plug in to the lighting network to break out (or input) DMX. This is the way the industry is moving and jumping on that bandwagon now is probably advisable. Somewhere down the road, the ACN Cat5/E-Net based industry standard lighting communications protocol will see greater use and having Cat5 gear now will make future expansion easier.
Or, going to a less expensive system, such as Leprecon dimmers and consoles, as example, will get you a reasonably priced system with functional dimmers and console. No real easy ability to expand towards moving lights and scrollers and similar toys down the road, but a lot of bang for the buck (US slang).

Steve B.