Basic lighting package

tdek

Member
My college is building a fine arts center with two performing spaces, a 750 seat proscenium auditorium and a 47' by 70' black box Theater space. The architect is putting together some tech package options for us, but I'm wondering what you think would be the minimum basic lighting package to split between the two spaces? We wouldn't be running full productions in both spaces, but we need enough lighting for concert/chapel events in the auditorium space while running plays in the black box. We will be getting two ETC boards for control and will stick with LED instruments. The auditorium space will have at least two FOH and 4 to 7 electric battens.
 
Posted this in the basic advice forum, but I realized it would probably be more appropriate here. My college is building a fine arts center with two performing spaces, a 750 seat proscenium auditorium and a 47' by 70' black box Theater space. The architect is putting together some tech package options for us, but I'm wondering what you think would be the minimum basic lighting package to split between the two spaces? We wouldn't be running full productions in both spaces, but we need enough lighting for concert/chapel events in the auditorium space while running plays in the black box. We will be getting two ETC boards for control and will stick with LED instruments. The auditorium space will have at least two FOH and 4 to 7 electric battens. Also, can anyone give me info on non ETC LED ellipsoidals? I'm particularly interested in any issues with stepping while fading.
 
Others will chime in too, but it's hard to say what a good package would be without knowing all the dimensions- one thing that makes splitting instruments between two spaces difficult is that if the instruments are at very different heights, you'll tend to use different instruments in different spaces. So a package may end up favoring one space over the other.

Instead of allowing the architect to put together the tech package, get yourself out to an theatrical install company (like Barbizon, but it could be another). Better yet, get out to a couple of different companies. Talk to them about your plans to use the space and get their expertise and let them bid on the package. Your architect isn't a lighting designer, and don't make her try to be one.

And the final question- All LED? No conventional dimmers anywhere in the building? It doesn't sound like you function like a road house, but if you plan to have touring shows come through and there are no dimmers anywhere..... I'm not saying you shouldn't go all LED- it's clearly the future. I'm just not convinced the future is here yet, but it's cool to see that it really is starting to arrive!
 
My 2 cents from my own personal experience doing exactly what you are about to do.

Spec systems for both venues, try to keep it isolated from each one, that way in a sense they are both self contained. You will inevitably pull something from the other venue but try to minimize that.

!!!!DO NOT ALLOW THE ARCHITECT TO SPEC YOUR SYSTEM!!!!! They will look at things as an architect, not a stage hand, I have had to deal with this before and if you give an architect a choice they will place a F.O.H audio engineer in closed both to mix a show. I have actually seen that happen.

Talk to various companies like what was mentioned before like Barbizon or Texas Scenic.

What will the venues be used for? Will you host broadway tours, rock shows, resident theatre companies, orchestras, corporate events, community theatre groups? Depending on your answer can change how your spec your gear.

No dimmers sounds like a bad idea to me, can you elaborate as to why this is a current direction for you?
 
As exciting as an LED-exclusive space sounds, you may come to regret that later on, if only because there is such an availability of standard dimmer fixtures out there at some pretty kick-a** prices, if you go hunting. LED has come a long way, but there is still a ways to go before that becomes the standard, I feel. Why not install standard dimmer boxes, and use Edison or Twist-Lock to Stagepin adapters? You can still buy your full rig of LEDs, but then you are not locked in to that as your sole option.
 
Hire a consultant. Seriously, a good consultant is something you should push for. A good consultant can catch many errors commonly made by architects. They can save lots of money and get you systems that actually work with no surprises when you move in. @BillConnerASTC is a member here and is one good source, the consultant can do so from afar. Also there are two well respected firms in Texas.
http://www.schulershook.com/
http://www.wjhw.com/
However, should the powers that be balk at this, the suggestion of talking to Barbizon or Texas Scenic are good.
For fun reading (about a high school facility) take a look at this older thread started by @Tex (from Texas):
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/new-school.28428/
 
LED has come a long way, but there is still a ways to go before that becomes the standard, I feel.
Agreed. I could be easily convinced that LED is the standard for wash fixtures, but I don't feel that it's quite there yet for elipsoidals. Sure, they're useful for tons of situations and can make sense in a lot of places for the extra things they can do. I'm not saying that they don't have a place, just that I don't think they're a replacement. Yet.

Why not install standard dimmer boxes, and use Edison or Twist-Lock to Stagepin adapters? You can still buy your full rig of LEDs, but then you are not locked in to that as your sole option.
You end up with the full cost of both. IMHO, the only place that LED elipsoidals are cost effective is when you don't need to bother with dimmers. But for the beancounters looking at dollars alone, you're talking about spending $$$ on dimmers only to spend even more on LED's that'll make the dimmers obsolete. Also, you don't want to run an LED on a dimmer module, so you're talking about overstock of dimmer modules and constant swapping for every re-hang.
A mix might be to wire for LED, but stock a few SmartModules or the like that you could hook up for any conventionals that you may want to use.

As others have said, get a consultant. Also, figure out what your plan will be long-term as well as short term. Do you see the possibility of more funding coming years down the road? Great! Maybe you could fully convert to LED then. But if that funding evaporates, what's the plan? Don't buy half a system now, because that might be all you end up with.


As for the two-spaces thing, that's what we have here (plus a Recital Hall). Get a full set of lights for each space. There will always be SOMETHING going on in both, so you'll need them. You don't have to go overboard in total, and we move fixtures (and even the boards) back and forth all the time based on what we need where. You end up with a main stage show teching in the theatre, a directing class doing scenes in the black box, and a speech in the hall. You'll need light for everything.
 
Also, you don't want to run an LED on a dimmer module, so you're talking about overstock of dimmer modules and constant swapping for every re-hang.

Goes back to their overhaul I suppose. Depending on the rack you install, if you have a smart sensor rack (CEM3 or otherwise with Sensor3 modules), you just switch your modules to relay. But as for covering the cost of the dimmers + LEDs, I can see how that might be a bit... counterintuitive? ;)
 
My college is building a fine arts center with two performing spaces, a 750 seat proscenium auditorium and a 47' by 70' black box Theater space. The architect is putting together some tech package options for us, but I'm wondering what you think would be the minimum basic lighting package to split between the two spaces? We wouldn't be running full productions in both spaces, but we need enough lighting for concert/chapel events in the auditorium space while running plays in the black box. We will be getting two ETC boards for control and will stick with LED instruments. The auditorium space will have at least two FOH and 4 to 7 electric battens.
call ETC and get a list of local dealers. Call one of them to help get the job spec with ETC. They will help you put a package together and register the job with ETC. It may already be. but as they have all said DON'T LET THE ARCHITECT DESIGN IT.
 
!!!!DO NOT ALLOW THE ARCHITECT TO SPEC YOUR SYSTEM!!!!!

Let me rephrase that for you.

!!!!DO NOT ALLOW THE ARCHITECT TO SPEC YOUR SYSTEM!!!!!


It is simply the worst thing that you can do. On 2 levels:

a) Don't let the architect design lighting positions, sound mix positions, speaker hanging positions, control booths, galleries, bridges, the grid, the stage, the wings, the pit, the traps rooms, the balcony rail, the boxes, or any other place where technical activities are likely to happen. They have a complete inability to understand that whilst their floral detail on the front of the lighting bridge might look very nice, it's flawed in that it faces the wrong way so nobody can see it anyway, but it's a total pain in the proverbial trying to rig a lantern through it. They cannot understand that the higher a followspot box is located, the less of the stage it can see, and the less use it is. They cannot understand that if you put a sound engineer in a soundproof glass box, they cannot hear the thing that they are supposed to be mixing. They cannot understand that if you put a control position at the top of a ladder so as to not clutter the space with an elevator, this will greatly impede your ability to get the mixing desk out when it breaks or when a tour wants to use theirs. There are many more examples.

b) Don't let the architect spec your kit. Get a tech to spec your kit. An architect will not understand the way that we do things. They will not understand why having a range of 14dg, 19dg, and 26dg Source 4s is needed, as well as some 15-30 zooms. Architects will think "well you can do all those beam angles with a 15-30 zoom, so let's just get a load of those". Architects will not understand the importance of holding industry-standard equipment when receiving productions from outside. The architect will rarely install cabling and infrastructure for future-proofing or for spares. The architect will not put huge rigging beams in the roof, as they do not understand that set weighs so much.

Also don't just hand the keys to the castle (IE hand all responsibility) to one supplier / consulting company. As far as I'm concerned, a company who supplies kit can never be considered a good 'consultant'. A good consultant to me will be somebody independent of brand association, who recommends equipment based on the actual needs of the theatre and getting the best value for money whilst fulfilling all of the criteria that should be fulfilled. Many companies will happily sell you a job lot of lights completely unsuited to your theatre because they have them on the shelves and they'll make a good margin on them. But that doesn't help you. Equally they will not spec as many flybars as they should, as they make less money on them than they do on moving lights. But then you end up with loads of movers and nowhere to hang them. You need to be recommended kit which you actually need, as well as infrastructure that will allow you to use that kit effectively.
 
Posted this in the basic advice forum, but I realized it would probably be more appropriate here. My college is building a fine arts center with two performing spaces, a 750 seat proscenium auditorium and a 47' by 70' black box Theater space. The architect is putting together some tech package options for us, but I'm wondering what you think would be the minimum basic lighting package to split between the two spaces? We wouldn't be running full productions in both spaces, but we need enough lighting for concert/chapel events in the auditorium space while running plays in the black box.

As others have alluded to, it's not always that simple. Two of the main variables between particular lighting instruments is their lamp power and their beam angle - both can be directly related to the size of building they're going into. For example - a Source 4 26dg pointing straight down from a bar at 5m trim will give you approx a 2.5m circle on the stage floor. But to get the same size beam on the floor with a 10m bar height, you would need a 14dg lens. So if your bars in the auditorium are going to be higher than your bars in the black box, you may need to consider at least purchasing additional lenses in order to accommodate for the standard flying arrangements of each space. LED products for this reason might prove less efficient - the zoom models can be a lot more expensive than fixed beam angle models; whereas on the other hand, if you bought Source 4 PARs they would be cheaper to begin with, AND you could simply swap the lenses for different spreads (S4 PARs come c/w 4 lenses).

We will be getting two ETC boards for control and will stick with LED instruments. The auditorium space will have at least two FOH and 4 to 7 electric battens. Also, can anyone give me info on non ETC LED ellipsoidals? I'm particularly interested in any issues with stepping while fading.

A few pointers on this subject which as you've probably already noticed is a bit contentious.

1. ETC Boards are good. But why have you chosen them? They are very theatre orientated. Will that definitely be your main focus? For a multi-purpose room, you might also consider options from other manufacturers such as MA Lighting.

2. LED Instruments can be good. But remember that most touring productions - if you intend to host any - will want conventionals and gel. It's the easiest way for them to ensure they get good continuity each night, with the same colours each time. Obviously there is the option to use tungsten white (usually referred to as Warm White) LED and gel... but the output of most LED units is not yet good enough for that really - few LED PARs can put out the same kind of light as a 750W S4P or 1000W PAR can.

3. LED Ellipsoidals - there are good and bad. The Source 4 LED is a great unit in my opinion, although there is also the Robert Juliat Tibo 533 to consider, personally I rate RJ optics as better than ETC... they are also usually far mechanically smoother to work with which makes detailed focussing easier - very useful for long range applications.

4. You say on stage you will have 4-7 electrics battens. Personally I don't spec LX battens full stop. It's far better, IMO, to just go with a set number of fly bars, and then add IWBs / Soca breakout boxes to the bars which you will use as electrics... (as well of course as DMX / Ethernet runs) this allows you to position LX wherever you want it, not being limited to set positions. It can be a little more expensive with cabling and infrastructure, but far more flexible long term, easily upgradeable in the future, and far easier to fix faults in the cabling too. FOH bars though - it's fine to cable them permanently because they're seldom used for anything else.


As exciting as an LED-exclusive space sounds, you may come to regret that later on, if only because there is such an availability of standard dimmer fixtures out there at some pretty kick-a** prices, if you go hunting. LED has come a long way, but there is still a ways to go before that becomes the standard, I feel. Why not install standard dimmer boxes, and use Edison or Twist-Lock to Stagepin adapters? You can still buy your full rig of LEDs, but then you are not locked in to that as your sole option.

You end up with the full cost of both. IMHO, the only place that LED elipsoidals are cost effective is when you don't need to bother with dimmers. But for the beancounters looking at dollars alone, you're talking about spending $$$ on dimmers only to spend even more on LED's that'll make the dimmers obsolete. Also, you don't want to run an LED on a dimmer module, so you're talking about overstock of dimmer modules and constant swapping for every re-hang.
A mix might be to wire for LED, but stock a few SmartModules or the like that you could hook up for any conventionals that you may want to use.

Of course the ideal solution really is to install dimmer packs which allow switching of the curves to make them a dimmer or a relay circuit. Then you can just program them, as per the gig, to do the task that you're looking for. Now I like Sensor3's as much as the next person, SmartPacks would also do the job, but I've come across an excellent unit called the LSC GenVI which I believe there are plans that will allow you to switch between dimmer curves (including the non dim 'curve') using RDM, which means of course that you can save the information into a showfile, and program it up front, and then on the get in, you can switch it all in an instant.

An alternative solution could be to install a mixture of dimmable and non-dim modules in a dimmer rack with a patchbay. Then simply wire the mixture into the socas so that they come out where you want them. In this scenario, the mixture of dim and non-dim modules would be based on your expected needs - based on your lantern stock which you purchase at the same time - and then as long as you purchased dimmers which could be set to run as relays, you could always add additional non-dims for the times that you are using more LED / intelligent fixtures, than normal.
 
A two focus thread, I'll address the planning issues. I certainly am grateful for the recommendations for retaining a professional theatre consultant and the specific mentions of my company. What I sense though is the too common trend for the Owner - the college or maybe state - to not include the current users in a meaningful way. "The architect is putting together some tech package options for us.." makes clear no one is asking what you need or want, and trying to serve the users. I've worked on projects where a higher up basically told the design team to politely listen to the users and then ignore them and do what the higher ups tell the team to do. I have to say - and can speak from personal experience though a while ago - as "theatre people" we do tend to be a little fanatical and zealous about our work and buildings and systems - as hinted at - ahem - by some of the posts above. This does not give confidence to the higher ups to empower the theatre people to have an active and significant role in the planning.

It's regrettable, and I sometimes skirt the process and find opportunities to learn what it is the users need or think they need, but it's not ideal.

I tend to agree that architects and - even more so - electrical engineers - are rarely experts at designing theatre systems and equipment, and that they often choose sales people from vendors and manufacturers for reasons other than their demonstrated proficiency and expertise (and I don't mean expertise in wining and dining - and many are very good at that). The era when an architect and their design team could study and take the time to understand theatre planning is past, with maybe a few exceptions (and projects with whopper budgets). Part of this is that buildings have gotten complicated. Just look above the ceiling of a 1920's school and a 2010 school, look at 50 drawings versus a 1000 for the same size project, and look at the stacks of paper and books and regulatory hurtles involved. Part is that we are in an era of fast changing production trends and entertainment technology. Part is that every owner wants it for less so there is not enough time to do it right, and if you ask for enough to do it right, the Owner finds someone who will accept less. In the end, I can all but guarantee a building with a stage and auditorium planned without a professional theater consultant on the team will not be a functional and usable as it could be for the same investment including a consultant.
 
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Well said Bill!

I'll add one simple technique that the OP can probably manage;
  • Design a show in the space! Pick a show you know well or have done recently and try to fit it into the new situation. It doesn't need to be the biggest flashiest piece you've ever done, but it should be at least in the mid range for the future. The BOM for that show will be a reasonable starting point for most others.
  • If this is a multiple use space then start with a good McCandless-ish full stage wash. It will stay in place and be available at all times for whatever event is on the boards.
  • As budget allows you can expand the kit, but you might also allow for acquisition over time. It all depends on funding!
You might note that this requires all the info others above have requested, and quite a bit more. Good luck
 

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