Bates with ring terminals

jayvee

Well-Known Member
Hi folks,

I'm on the hunt for new Bates connectors but would prefer crimpy ring terminals instead of "stick the wire in the ferrule". I'm striking out on the interwebnet - am I out of fashion? Are they still a thing? What's my next move?
 

RonHebbard

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi folks,

I'm on the hunt for new Bates connectors but would prefer crimpy ring terminals instead of "stick the wire in the ferrule". I'm striking out on the interwebnet - am I out of fashion? Are they still a thing? What's my next move?
Rosco Laboratories sell, or sold, what you're looking for in 20, 50, & 100 Amp sizes.
Rosco included the EXACT quantity of terminals, split lock washers, and pan head screws (bolts) required. 2 crimps were straight and the center crimp was a flag to better fit the available space within the connector body.
CAUTION: The center contact is ground on the 20 amp connectors but it's NOT ground on the 60's and possibly not on the 100's as well.
Hint: The Female ground contact is recessed slightly less in the body to ensure it connects first.
More than a decade ago, before I retired, I was able to find an alternate source for both the straight and flagged crimps.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

derekleffew

Resident Curmudgeon
Senior Team
Premium Member
I'm on the hunt for new Bates connectors but would prefer crimpy ring terminals
Do they have to be Bates brand or are you using that term generically?

Sadly, https://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Collaborative-Articles:Connectors-Stage-Pin appears to be quite out of date as far as current offerings. Even Union Connector has moved away from ring terminals, offering only barrel or direct crimp.
EDIT: Later in the thread, we see that Union Connector stopped making pin connectors about eight years ago. They are still listed for sale on many sites. A disclaimer has been added to the Collaborative Article.

Some can be really passionate and picky about their pin connectors. What does your friendly local lighting dealer use/recommend?
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Rosco included ... 2 crimps were straight and the center crimp was a flag to better fit the available space within the connector body.
Are you sure you don't have that backwards?

proxy.php

When Union made square connectors, it was 2x 90° flag and 1x straight for ground. Above is a much older plug, but the same idea.
 
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RonHebbard

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@jayvee & @derekleffew Mia culpa. Yes I had it backwards on two points: 2 Flags & 1 especially short straight. ALSO: The male ground contacts are longer, as can be seen in Derek's photo, the female contacts are all recessed the same amount.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Do they have to be Bates brand or are you using that term generically?

Sadly, https://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Collaborative-Articles:Connectors-Stage-Pin appears to be quite out of date as far as current offerings. Even Union Connector has moved away from ring terminals, offering only barrel or direct crimp.

Some can be really passionate and picky about their pin connectors. What does your friendly local lighting dealer use/recommend?
-----

Are you sure you don't have that backwards?

proxy.php

When Union made square connectors, it was 2x 90° flag and 1x straight for ground. Above is a much older plug, but the same idea.
 

jayvee

Well-Known Member
Does not have to be Bates, was using it generically. I was very sad that Union stopped making these stage pin connectors. Is there a reason for the move away from rings? What is "direct crimp"? And yes, the CB entry is woefully out of date as are many manufacturer sites, which still have live links for discontinued connectors.
@jayvee & @derekleffew Mia culpa. Yes I had it backwards on two points: 2 Flags & 1 especially short straight. ALSO: The male ground contacts are longer, as can be seen in Derek's photo, the female contacts are all recessed the same amount.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

derekleffew

Resident Curmudgeon
Senior Team
Premium Member
... Is there a reason for the move away from rings? What is "direct crimp"?
The pin (or socket) is removed, the wire inserted and crimped (x3), and the plug (connector) re-assembled.
Bates_crimp.jpg

Not my first preference probably because I'm too old to have ever assembled them in large quantities. I don't know how much the pins cost, but I'd rather throw away a 3¢ ring terminal or three if I need/want to reuse the plug.
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ALSO: The male ground contacts are longer, as can be seen in Derek's photo, the female contacts are all recessed the same amount.
The picture below indicates either: you were not wrong originally or are wrong now. Since this manufacturer uses the same body for both male and female both grounds protrude/are less recessed.
Somewhat related: the 19-pin Socapex where the male pins are all the same length and female sockets #13-19 are shallower.
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But I didn't see the 5 amp, 60 amp & 100 amp connectors mentioned.
The first paragraph mentions the 60 and 100amp, and that we will not be concerning ourselves with same. The 5amp is on the Kliegl Bros. catalog page, and I think 10 and 30amp also.
 

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gafftapegreenia

CBMod
CB Mods
The direct crimp style is something that I'm sure the manufactures love and the repair shops hate.
 

derekleffew

Resident Curmudgeon
Senior Team
Premium Member
This thread got me wondering/thinking about how much market share Union Connector has lost. Until the late 1980s, they were pretty much the only manufacturer of stage pins. I think that's when Rosco, the first major challenger, introduced theirs. Rosco's was a radical new shape, (they call it ergonomic, I call it hour-glass) and UC changed from the square-bodied to hourglass shortly thereafter.

Now, I don't even see stage pin connector s listed on https://www.unionconnector.com/ 's website. Does UC still even make 2P&G s? Who wants to email Rich Wolpert and ask?
 

RonHebbard

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This thread got me wondering/thinking about how much market share Union Connector has lost. Until the late 1980s, they were pretty much the only manufacturer of stage pins. I think that's when Rosco, the first major challenger, introduced theirs. Rosco's was a radical new shape, (they call it ergonomic, I call it hour-glass) and UC changed from the square-bodied to hourglass shortly thereafter.

Now, I don't even see stage pin connector s listed on https://www.unionconnector.com/ 's website. Does UC still even make 2P&G s? Who wants to email Rich Wolpert and ask?
In my shop days I found a U.S. company named Pin Tech who manufactured machined brass male and female contacts for 2P&G connectors. Our shop purchased hundred of them when we built two automated decks for the musical Tommy in Frankfurt and London. The styles we purchased accepted either solid copper or, in our case, stranded copper sheathed in ferrules.
Seasons’ Best &
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

STEVETERRY

Well-Known Member
This thread got me wondering/thinking about how much market share Union Connector has lost. Until the late 1980s, they were pretty much the only manufacturer of stage pins. I think that's when Rosco, the first major challenger, introduced theirs. Rosco's was a radical new shape, (they call it ergonomic, I call it hour-glass) and UC changed from the square-bodied to hourglass shortly thereafter.

Now, I don't even see stage pin connector s listed on https://www.unionconnector.com/ 's website. Does UC still even make 2P&G s? Who wants to email Rich Wolpert and ask?
I think it is safe to say that Union has withdrawn from the commoditized pin connector market. Once Asian manufacturing targeted this product--game over. Another example of the "ballistic curve" of market leadership.

I wish I had ten cents for every pin connector Production Arts bought from UC. I would be rich!

ST
 

derekleffew

Resident Curmudgeon
Senior Team
Premium Member
I emailed Union and they replied that they stopped making stage pin connectors about 8 years ago :(
Thanks @jayvee .
The fact that it took us this long to notice says something, but I'm not sure what. :confused:
Rosco has stopped selling theirs also.

So back to your initial question, As best I can tell just from googling and not talking to a real person, your choices today are Marinco/Advanced Devices/Bates or PinTech. Both offer direct crimp or set screw/ferrule and outside are pretty much the same connector. If TMB ProPin still makes ProPin, they'll be expensive and similar to the other two. Then there's Kupo from Asia who I think makes Leviton's.
 

STEVETERRY

Well-Known Member
Thanks @jayvee .
The fact that it took us this long to notice says something, but I'm not sure what. :confused:
The world is clearly moving away from pin connectors. A large theme park company in CA and FL has announced that their new standard is NEMA L5-15 locking-type connectors for 120V applications. And NEMA 5-15 parallel blade connectors are showing up in more and more new entertainment construction specs.

ST
 

danTt

Well-Known Member
Funny that they're going back to twistlock connectors, rather than True1 connectors, which is where the rest of the entertainment world seems to be heading.

FWIW, in my main venue, it's also PowerCon / True1 to L5-20 connectors for power distribution. L5-15's usually get a "only for dimmer doubling!!!" reaction from everyone in town.

With Christie adopting true1 for all 208v applications, I think we're going to be back in a world where it's unclear what voltage to expect from the connector. That's the one benefit to NEMA twist lock, usually. The downsides being that they are twistlocks to begin with
 

derekleffew

Resident Curmudgeon
Senior Team
Premium Member
... I think we're going to be back in a world where ...
No, it's back to a world where it's Christie vs. everyone else. Not that that world ever went away. L6-15, L5-20, whateverittakes.
...where it's unclear what voltage to expect from the connector. ...
The NEC would NEVER let that happen. Besides all one has to do is write the voltage on a piece of tape and slap it on the connector. ;)
The other NEC issue with the True1 is the single-source/sole manufacturer. So Neutrik needs to settle on ONE connector to make popular enough to attract a clone/knock-off? Doesn't sound right. They might, eventually, get approval and thus wider use and more sales, but they'll have to share the glory with "the cloners".
 

RonHebbard

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, it's back to a world where it's Christie vs. everyone else. Not that that world ever went away. L6-15, L5-20, what ever it takes.

The NEC would NEVER let that happen. Besides all one has to do is write the voltage on a piece of tape and slap it on the connector.
Then there are 19 contact Socapex's: Are they carrying multi-frequency audio amplifier outputs OR single or three phase power and at what voltage / current?
SEASON'S BEST!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

gafftapegreenia

CBMod
CB Mods
I emailed Union and they replied that they stopped making stage pin connectors about 8 years ago :(

Honestly I’m not surprised, I’m sure the sales volume of 2P&G connectors has shrunk a magnitude in the last decade.

As the 2P&G connector has typically denoted dimmed power, with the decline of incandescent sources in commercial entertainment, do you think we’ll ever see the ol’ Stagepin repurposed, or will the remaining stock molder in retirement, destine to live on in community theatres and underfunded schools way beyond their expected service lives?
 
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RonHebbard

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Honestly I’m not surprised, I’m sure the sales volume of 2P&G connectors has shrunk a magnitude in the last decade.

As the 2P&G connector has typically detonated dimmed power, with the decline of incandescent sources in commercial entertainment, do you think we’ll ever see the ol’ Stagepin repurposed, or will the remaining stock molder in retirement, destined to live on in community theatres and underfunded schools way beyond their expected service lives?
Detonated you say? Distributed possibly??
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

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