Behringer x32 cabling requirements
- Thread starterStageTech620
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StageTech620
Member
I haven't heard that before, but I'll have to look into it
JD
Well-Known Member
Sweetwater says CAT5e on their site. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/S32IO
As with any expensive purchase, I would check with their tech support. You might get a better answer calling a dealer that sells them like Sweetwater.
"Packed with ultra-fast, rock-solid performance, the Behringer S32 32-channel digital snake system bridges the gap between your band, your FOH engineer, and your audience. With the S32, you get 32 remote-controllable Midas-designed preamps and 16 analog, servo-balanced XLR returns at the stage end, and it's all piped through a single, convenient Cat 5e cable, thanks to integrated SuperMac technology from Klark Teknik."
As with any expensive purchase, I would check with their tech support. You might get a better answer calling a dealer that sells them like Sweetwater.
"Packed with ultra-fast, rock-solid performance, the Behringer S32 32-channel digital snake system bridges the gap between your band, your FOH engineer, and your audience. With the S32, you get 32 remote-controllable Midas-designed preamps and 16 analog, servo-balanced XLR returns at the stage end, and it's all piped through a single, convenient Cat 5e cable, thanks to integrated SuperMac technology from Klark Teknik."
themuzicman
Well-Known Member
I'd love to know the rationale here behind how a few missed bits could possibly damage a desk or void a warranty. If you're running an exceptionally long distance I'm sure STP over UTP will help just to keep extra noise out of the line, but for most runs UTP will handle just fine.
No, the shield protects from outside interference, not ESD. Not going to be a thing with static at all, it's not an electrical ground in the sense of an AC connection. Ethercon is nice, but not necessary at all - it adds nothing to the signal. It's just a convenient locking connector which I like for reliability but it's not adding anything to the quality of the cable/connection/signal.
Static discharge into un-shielded Cat 5e can cause audio gremlins in the X32. The bonding of the shell of an ethercon connector is key to avoiding problems. It may be less of an issue with installed cable because the cable isn't laying on carpet, getting stepped on, dragged, and so on. You could try using the installed cable along with shielded, ethercon jumpers from the wall jacks Of course, it'll work perfectly until that really critical show.
I doubt it would be create a warranty issue. I have not heard of static causing damage, just audio problems.
I doubt it would be create a warranty issue. I have not heard of static causing damage, just audio problems.
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I disagree. A friend of mine, an early X32 adopter, is the guy who discovered the problem, did extensive testing, and got Behringer to acknowledge it. When the X32 first came out, Behringer specified un-shielded cable. Static electricity is capacitively coupled into the twisted pairs. When that happens, the receiver chip loses lock and nasty noises result. More typical electrical noise is not a problem due to the common mode rejection of balanced transmission, the same way it works with computer networks. The Ethercon plays a roll because the shell ground shunts the discharge away from the small circuit traces of the interface, directly to the chassis. Take away the Ethercon, and the shielded cable does not resolve the problem.
pure rumor mongering on my part. i thought i read such info on another forum. note i did attempt to correct with my second post. but clearly i just stir up more mud
themuzicman
Well-Known Member
I'd have hoped they would have fixed this problem by now, in that case - the X32 has been out for a handful of years. I've used a maybe a dozen different X32's when I go into churches, dingy bars, and lower-tier regional theaters and rarely do they spend any money on the cabling and buy the cheapest Cat 5e they can find, usually the junk Monoprice bulk cable. On my touring rigs and installs I spec TMB Proplex and while it is nice it is hard to convince people to pay for the ruggedness I can rarely convince the venues with X32's to spend full dollars per foot on Cat5e, I haven't ever had a fault due to cable when I'm in the houses with X32's and I doubt they know what they are spec'ing.
Additionally, other than very specific applications (Older Ethersound stuff and Riedel Intercom are the big ones that comes to mind, a 1' UTP jumper in-line and those systems won't work), in a decade of larger scale live audio I've only ever had UTP vs STP issue crop up twice. Part of it may be that I trust my rental shop to supply me with my main drive runs suited to the application, usually the Proplex I mentioned above, but for everything else it's a mixed bag of cable and you use whatever is available and if it doesn't work you knock down the troubleshooting list. The STP/UTP issues I have had never damaged gear, and on the whole we rarely consider what cables we are using unless the manufacturer is adamant - even then I'll throw it to the engineers at my shop to discern if it's truly a valid concern. Might be a good case of ignorance, but unless the line is actually powered I'm going to blame the manufacturer if the absence of a foil shield damages something - I can live with a few pops.
It's about ESD and that static discharge interrupts the AES50 (Hypermac) word clock sync. Dan Mortensen of the Seattle area Audio Engineering Society chapter helped document this with assistance from another engineer in the Indianapolis area. They were able to recreate the failure at will with UTP and also with every kludge they tried: running a wire between chassis to bond them together, using the same AC outlet, using STP without Ethercon connectors. All, yes all, of those will fail.
In a post on the forums at Pro Sound Web, a Behringer representative specified a particular ProCo cable assembly as meeting the technical requirements and is what I've used from Day 1. I've never had an ESD-induced drop out. I've been present when UTP was used and observed first hand how the signal is interrupted while the S16 or other stage box re-syncs with the mixer.
This isn't bullshit, it's very real.
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Given that the M32 likely went into production after the discovery of the issue, you have to wonder if they fixed the design. It depends heavily on the environment, so it won't happen to most users. Not running UTP cable over carpet helps. UTP in metal conduit would be fine. As I recall the story, Dan found the problem in a dry, air conditioned, carpeted, hotel meeting room. Low humidity+carpet=High voltage
I see no reason to think UTP can be used with EMT and result in a "fix". It's not energy being picked up over the run of the CAT5 but being induced at one end or the other.
Dan and the engineer in Indiana tested under a variety of different conditions; the hotel ballroom was but one of them.
Kyle, I had a situation where a touring act used UTP and I helped the BE run it, asking him if he'd ever had an ESD-related drop out. "Never," he said. That night he had two of them. The first time we weren't watching the stage and he asked "what happened to the PA?" "Nothing, that was your mixer and stage boxes losing sync." He wasn't convinced and thought we had a genuine PA system issue. The second time it happened we were both looking forward and saw the bassist approach the "bitch" mic, used to talk to the monitor engineer and other band members. The drop out occurred when the bass player's lips touched the mic and he visibly recoiled from the static shock. That you have not experienced this yet is most likely because you have relatively low static build up on your stage or at the FOH position. In the case I mention the band had several nice rugs on the stage and that led to the static build up on the bass player, looking for a grounded article with which to discharge.
Music Group/Behringer has acknowledged that STP is a requirement for trouble-free use. I don't understand why folks think that deviating from this simple and inexpensive requirement is defensible. It's not like you have to purchase a US$1000 box to fix it.
Dan and the engineer in Indiana tested under a variety of different conditions; the hotel ballroom was but one of them.
Kyle, I had a situation where a touring act used UTP and I helped the BE run it, asking him if he'd ever had an ESD-related drop out. "Never," he said. That night he had two of them. The first time we weren't watching the stage and he asked "what happened to the PA?" "Nothing, that was your mixer and stage boxes losing sync." He wasn't convinced and thought we had a genuine PA system issue. The second time it happened we were both looking forward and saw the bassist approach the "bitch" mic, used to talk to the monitor engineer and other band members. The drop out occurred when the bass player's lips touched the mic and he visibly recoiled from the static shock. That you have not experienced this yet is most likely because you have relatively low static build up on your stage or at the FOH position. In the case I mention the band had several nice rugs on the stage and that led to the static build up on the bass player, looking for a grounded article with which to discharge.
Music Group/Behringer has acknowledged that STP is a requirement for trouble-free use. I don't understand why folks think that deviating from this simple and inexpensive requirement is defensible. It's not like you have to purchase a US$1000 box to fix it.
I do remember in I think a forum discussion at SoundForums.net in the very long x32 thread shortly after the S16 finally became available. IIRC it didn't come with a manual, just a quick start guide and soon a few people started having issues which were tracked down to using UTP cable. The Music Group designated boffin at the time assured users that there was no problem using unshielded cable, they had tested it and it worked fine. They kept getting more reports of problems. Finally one of the MG design engineers joined the discussion and stated that Behringer had NEVER recommended anything other that shielded. Well except for the reference in the skimpy info included with the product and in multiple comments by Behringer employees. 
stagemanager1
Member
I have seen a few mentions of "more expensive cable". Shielded cat6 is about $160 for 1000'. That's not that expensive.
Plus - Ethercon is nice, and not much more expensive than shielded cat connectors, but a good shielded cable with plain shielded cat connectors will work - it still completes the grounding circuit. Ethercon is best! Good luck!!
Plus - Ethercon is nice, and not much more expensive than shielded cat connectors, but a good shielded cable with plain shielded cat connectors will work - it still completes the grounding circuit. Ethercon is best! Good luck!!
The work that Dan Mortensen did, and later confirmed by Music Group representatives is that the shielded Ethercon is ABSOLUTELY required.
Again, for the small amount of cash involved, why not do it right the first time? Perhaps there is some ambiguity as to what "right" entails so I hope this thread can clear that up.
Some applications require both the belt and suspenders.
EdSavoie
Well-Known Member
I was going to say this... CAT 6, heck, even CAT 6a cabling isn't that expensive (the latter is spec'ed for 10 Gigabit Ethernet) compared to the costs for all those nice etherCON connectors and that X32.
Which is why I was mildly annoyed when I learned the prewired ethernet cables in the wall of my new (2014) home was only UTP CAT 5e with some reallllly lazy plug wiring. (No, you're not supposed to unravel several cm of the cable to make wiring easy).
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