Installs Bose Roommatch

TShane

Member
We have a large "gymatorium" that has proven to be very difficult to run sound in. The proscenium style stage is a concrete box and so is the gym. The issue is often with the location of the sound. A corrugated metal ceiling and cement walls help contribute to a "muddy" sound that leaves a theatre audience straining to understand actors. This spring we will undertake to install a completely new system.

Due to situation we have begun to look at the Bose Roommatch system. Does anyone have any experience with this system? Is Bose Professional any better than Bose home products? How is the frequency response of the system? Does it have enough power?

We are also looking at a couple of other products like the Renkus-Heinz.com Varia loudspeaker, JBL Vertec and Community Solutions. How do these measure up?

Everyone is looking to me because I am the "drama guy" and I use the system the most. However, I have never been in charge of an installation like this one. How do these speakers measure up? What would you do if you had just about 30k to provide sound to a gym that is also a theatre.
 
Don't waste your time on Bose. I don't know the scale of your gymnatorium, but in the gymnatoriums I've seen before, Renkus Varia or JBL Vertec solutions would be sufficiently overkill.

For that matter, don't throw money into loudspeakers if the room acoustics aren't also going to be addressed. There are treatments that can be applied to walls and ceiling trusses, which may vastly improve the quality of an existing sound system without requiring the installation of a new one. A new one, without acoustical treatments, sounds like it would be a vain effort.
 
Sound treatments have been applied to very little effect. I am hoping for a solution were I can have focused sound were I want it instead of having to blast everyone with sound. The system that is in there currently does not belong to us so we can not alter it (strange situation I know). It belongs to an organisation that rents the space. The system is awful but works for their limited needs. So the decision was made to install a parallel system of our own.
 
Don't waste your time on Bose. I don't know the scale of your gymnatorium, but in the gymnatoriums I've seen before, Renkus Varia or JBL Vertec solutions would be sufficiently overkill.
Mike, I don't know if you have seen the RoomMatch products or the change in Bose's approach to pro sound, but I would not necessarily dismiss them so quickly. They're not always the right solution but Bose is also willing to admit that, a significant change in itself.

TShane, I am curious as to how you arrived and the RoomMatch, Varia, Vertec and Community solutions as not only are some of those less well known solutions but they seem to span a pretty wide range and represent a fairly high level of expectation for the system (and the associated budget). The one thing I can say for sure is that the RoomMatch, Varia and Vertec solutions are all very system design and implementation dependent and with those you really need to look at the overall system solutions involved rather than just the boxes.

As you mentioned "a completely new system" what does the $30k budget noted have to cover? Whether that is for the speaker products, an installed speaker system or an entire installed system could be very different situations. It might also help to know things such as if you are thinking a mono, stereo or LCR system, what type of events you envision and so on. The existing conditions can also be a factor, structural considerations, existing power and cabling pathways, space available for equipment, etc. can definitely affect the cost. And when addressing flown speakers even aspects such as the speakers being located over an open flat floor versus sloped or tiered floors with fixed seating can even be a significant factor in the installation cost.

Speaking of the floor, is this an actual 'gymnatorium'? I see some of the speaker products noted possibly presenting some challenges being incorporated into a typical gymnasium space.

I do agree with Mike regarding the acoustics and have to wonder what treatments were applied that they did not have a significant effect in that space.
 
First, thank you both for responding.

To know how we have come up with solutions you need to know a little bit about me. I came into teaching high school theatre from an odd way. I studied acting and theatre at a until I eventually got an MFA. Then I did Shakespeare at a theatre in Florida. While there fell and in love got married. My wife told me that the economy was going to crash in Florida (this was 2005 and she is smarter than I am) so we got out, moved to Canada and I got a temporary job at a high school. Still here. Love it.

So when researching things I tend to go back to my theatrical roots: to techie friends in the good ol' USA. They have good advice even though they can't see where I am at or experienced the space. (Or know what I can purchase in Canada for that matter.) After explaining the problem, much like I have done here, these are some of the systems that it was recommended I look at.

It was also recommended I get an audio consultant. I did not win that battle. (However, the school did agree to get me a theatre consultant for a major renovation to the stage in 2015.) I would wait if I could, but I can't.

We are looking for an overall solution, not just a new set of loudspeakers. The money needs to cover products (speakers, amp, processor etc) and installation, however, installation will be easier than most I think. We are looking for a stereo system, there are existing power and cabling pathways (lots of them actually). There is plenty of space to hang things. It is an open flat wood floor. There are bleachers at the one end, however they are small and low profile.

It is a gym with a stage tucked into a wall on the side. The stage closes off with a partition wall. Which products do you think will present a challenge in a typical gymnasium space?

As to the treatments they consist of acoustical panels that surround most of the space. They are attached to the wall about 20 feet up. Each panel is about 3 x 2 1/2 feet. They do help with sound in the gym at a conversational level.
 
If you can't get an audio consultant to help with the design, then I would recommend that you work with an AV integrator then. There are a number of variables that need to be addressed at the same time in order to make a successful system work. Speakers are just a part of the overall solution for this problematic space.

Also, I feel your budget of 30K is a little light in what you would like to accomplish. I just designed a small space that was live and needed to be acoustically treated for spoken word drama and the occasional musical theater show and the proposed budget for acoustical treatments was just under $20K. At best you will be able to purchase a speaker chain with amplification and come up short on the installation costs of the system.

I am available to discuss this in detail if you need at the info below.
 
They have good advice even though they can't see where I am at or experienced the space. (Or know what I can purchase in Canada for that matter.) After explaining the problem, much like I have done here, these are some of the systems that it was recommended I look at.
As I noted, RoomMatch, Varia and Vertec are multiple box speaker systems, they really require some design effort in order to determine what would be required or appropriate. Which leads to...

It was also recommended I get an audio consultant. I did not win that battle. (However, the school did agree to get me a theatre consultant for a major renovation to the stage in 2015.) I would wait if I could, but I can't.
Whether it is a consultant or a design/build contractor, at some point you will be paying someone to design the system (assuming any actual design is performed). The difference in the potential benefits between those two parties often depends on how well you feel you can define what you want and then assess the systems proposed and subsequently installed.

We are looking for an overall solution, not just a new set of loudspeakers. The money needs to cover products (speakers, amp, processor etc) and installation, however, installation will be easier than most I think. We are looking for a stereo system, there are existing power and cabling pathways (lots of them actually). There is plenty of space to hang things. It is an open flat wood floor. There are bleachers at the one end, however they are small and low profile.
I agree that $30k is likely to be a very tight budget. Design, installation, system tuning, equipment racks, cable, microphones, stands, DI boxes, plates and hardware, bid/performance bonds and all the other ancillary items and costs that are likely to be involved could easily represent a significant portion of that budget, especially if you are looking at flying multiple arrays. Add to that a mixer, system processing and amps and realistically, I think the speaker systems noted are likely outside your budget.

As it may also impact the budget, an actual stereo system can often be difficult to achieve in a gymnatorium space as both arrays have to fully cover all of the listeners and unless your uses include a lot of live music performances I am not sure how much you may actually benefit from stereo. However, and perhaps most important, a stereo system with two physically separated sources reproducing the same sound in a live space would almost certainly work against you in regard to intelligibility for spoken word. So in terms of improving intelligibility and working within the budget defined you might want to consider if a mono system might be more appropriate.

This is also an example of where you may run into differences between consultants and contractors and quite possibly even between contractors. If you tell a design/build contractor that you want a stereo system many will simply proceed on that basis without any further discussion as they are giving you what you requested and avoiding investing any additional time or effort. However, some contractors and most consultants would want to verify whether a stereo system is the best approach for the application before proceeding in that direction. The more comfortable you are that what you will ask for truly represents and accurately defines what you want in terms of the final product and results, the less of a potential factor this becomes.

It is a gym with a stage tucked into a wall on the side. The stage closes off with a partition wall. Which products do you think will present a challenge in a typical gymnasium space?
I'm thinking things like clearance for motorized backboards, not interfering with lighting/HVAC/sprinklers, being targets for basketballs and volleyballs and so on. Several of the products noted are 'line array' type products that would represent a physically larger vertical speaker array and those would seem likely to present greater challenges if some of these issues are relevant.

A bit detailed but also on the gymnasium aspect, may other uses of the space affect the installation of the system? If the installer has to work outside normal business hours, has to have the space ready for use each morning, has to move all their tools and equipment off site every day, etc. can definitely affect the cost. Imagine what something like setting up scaffolding to hang one array then possibly having to take the scaffolding back down, move it off site and go through it all again the next day to hang the other array does to the cost. Just something to think about in terms of budget and scheduling.

As to the treatments they consist of acoustical panels that surround most of the space. They are attached to the wall about 20 feet up. Each panel is about 3 x 2 1/2 feet. They do help with sound in the gym at a conversational level.
Given the location and type of treatments described someone likely either simply tried to create the impression of having done something to help, thought that anything would help or at best looked the effect on overall reverberation time. They probably did not look at the space having proper acoustics for the auditorium use or at the direct effect of the treatments installed on any audio system or the associated listeners.
 
Sound treatments have been applied to very little effect. I am hoping for a solution were I can have focused sound were I want it instead of having to blast everyone with sound. The system that is in there currently does not belong to us so we can not alter it (strange situation I know). It belongs to an organisation that rents the space. The system is awful but works for their limited needs. So the decision was made to install a parallel system of our own.

You can spend $30 million on the best sound system in the world and it will still sound awful if the acoustics are poor. You need to fix that first.

I think you should spend the $30k on hiring an acoustical consultant to design acoustics upgrades and a sound system. Spend what's left (which should be a decent chunk of the $30k) on the acoustical upgrades. Keep the sound system design on hand and ask for more money to finish it in two years.

Currently, you will be the one who is blamed when the new sound system doesn't work - and given a room with poor acoustics and a tight budget, it most likely will not. Room Match is a good place to start (and is a pretty cool product - Bose today is not the Bose of even ten years ago), but I think it will be outside your budget.

Here's a list of acoustical consultants in the US - check the "other countries" link to see Canadian ones: NCAC : About NCAC
 

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