Conventional Fixtures Bottoms of lamps being burnt; S4; 5/50

[chris325]

I had no idea that Leviton still manufactured the 5/50s. Unless we can convince the school district that these fixtures use twice the energy Source Fours use (highly unlikely,) we'll be stuck with these for a while, so new shutters/lamp bases would be great.

Also, I noticed on that price sheet varoius screws for Leviton fixtures. Would any of these be the screws that hold the lens tube to the reflector? I know that some of those have gone missing from our fixtures, and they are super tiny and hard to find.

Thanks!

 

[Les]

I had no idea that Leviton still manufactured the 5/50s. Unless we can convince the school district that these fixtures use twice the energy Source Fours use (highly unlikely,) we'll be stuck with these for a while, so new shutters/lamp bases would be great.

It would be hard to convince, because they don't consume twice the energy as a Source Four. Sure, it will be close if you're comparing a 575w Source Four with a 5/50 lamped with a FEL 1Kw, but coincidentally, the best lamp for your fixture is most likely the 575w GLA. The refined filament geometry of the GLA closely matches the light output of a FEL. The fixtures are rated for the 1,000 watts, but using that lamp has more cons than pros. A Source Four makes better use of the light source, but they are still far from "Energy Star" products. A Source Four @ 575w uses the same amount of energy as a 5/50 @ 575w, 360Q @ 575w , GE Microwave Oven @ 575w, etc.

Also, I noticed on that price sheet varoius screws for Leviton fixtures. Would any of these be the screws that hold the lens tube to the reflector? I know that some of those have gone missing from our fixtures, and they are super tiny and hard to find.

Thanks!

I would call Production Advantage and say "I need the little screws that hold the lens barrel to the lamp/reflector housing". I'm absolutely sure that they will be able to help you out and send you the correct screws.

Some minor corrections on phrasology:
Lens Tube: Telescoping tube which holds the lenses and gel frame clips.
Lens Barrel: Stationary cylinder, which contains the lens tube. The lens barrel mounts to the Lamp/Reflector housing.

 

[chris325]

It would be hard to convince, because they don't consume twice the energy as a Source Four. Sure, it will be close if you're comparing a 575w Source Four with a 5/50 lamped with a FEL 1Kw, but coincidentally, the best lamp for your fixture is most likely the 575w GLA. The refined filament geometry of the GLA closely matches the light output of a FEL. The fixtures are rated for the 1,000 watts, but using that lamp has more cons than pros. A Source Four makes better use of the light source, but they are still far from "Energy Star" products. A Source Four @ 575w uses the same amount of energy as a 5/50 @ 575w, 360Q @ 575w , GE Microwave Oven @ 575w, etc.

Even though the energy savings may not be spectacular by switching to Source Four fixtures, the much better light output of a S4 would mean that less fixtures would be needed, and cutting down fixture usage would certainly save a lot of energy. (And of course less heat, better gobo projection, and better customer service.)

Either way, a replacement for our Innovator 600 is certainly more of a pressing issue than new fixtures.

If I get a chance, I'll talk to my school's TD tonight about possibly replacing some of the sockets and getting the screws that we need.

 

[derekleffew]

...Another thing is to make sure you correctly seat the lamp and use the retainer clip! I've worked on some old S4 bases (pre-retainer clip) and they would eventually loosen on the lamp, and corrode over way faster than they do now.

The primary cause of arcing between pins and socket is the lamp not being inserted fully. This can be rather difficult, particularly with new sockets. For the HPL lamp, I highly recommend the Best Seat Lamp Insertion Tool, as discussed here.

This is even more of a problem with the TP-22 socket. One can't be timid when shoving the lamp home. On the other hand, I don't know too many who haven't accidentally had a lamp break during insertion.

See also the threads: Corroding S4 bases and Help me fix ETC S4's.

 

[chris325]

Derek's got a good point there. I know that it's always tough to shove those lamps into place, and it's even harder for student technicians who haven't done it before. It definitely requires some experience to be able to drive the lamp home.

As for that Lamp Insertion Tool, that's just awesome. Looks MUCH better than using the foam from the lamp packaging.

 

[church]

As an owner of colortran 5/50s and their 231 predecessor I can confirm that the phot that Derek shows with the lampsocket with the integral 36 inch whip will fit into these fixtures. Do not buy a socket with short tails. The replacement of the socket into the cap/burner assembly is very straightforward. If you can change the plug you should have no problem with this.

if you need any more info just PM me

 

[GreyWyvern]

Thanks church.

I haven't had a chance to do anything yet. I've been busy as of late. Hopefully once my current production is done this weekend, I can start finding time to do everything that has been getting put off. Replacing sockets is at the top of my list. I just need to figure out how many I need. I'll contact you if I run into any trouble, but I'm sure I'll be fine.

 

[DELO72]

It would be hard to convince, because they don't consume twice the energy as a Source Four. Sure, it will be close if you're comparing a 575w Source Four with a 5/50 lamped with a FEL 1Kw, but coincidentally, the best lamp for your fixture is most likely the 575w GLA. The refined filament geometry of the GLA closely matches the light output of a FEL. The fixtures are rated for the 1,000 watts, but using that lamp has more cons than pros. A Source Four makes better use of the light source, but they are still far from "Energy Star" products. A Source Four @ 575w uses the same amount of energy as a 5/50 @ 575w, 360Q @ 575w , GE Microwave Oven @ 575w, etc.

I have to disagree slightly with Les. A GLA is a long-life version of the GLC, and you would be replacing a 27,000 lumen, 300 hr. lamp with a 13,500 lumen, 1500 hr. lamp. To get true apples -> apples you would want to replace it with the GLC (300 hr, higher output), or with the higher wattage GLD lamp (750W version of the GLC).

Either is a much better lamp choice than the FEL, which has very poor collection in Ellipsoidal reflectors due to the large coil dimesions and acts like an inefficient oven. When I was an M.E. I relamped all my 5/50 Colortrans with GLCs and got almost as much output (perceived) at half the wattage of the FELs and saved a ton in energy and HVAC expenses.

 

[shiben]

The primary cause of arcing between pins and socket is the lamp not being inserted fully. This can be rather difficult, particularly with new sockets. For the HPL lamp, I highly recommend the Best Seat Lamp Insertion Tool, as discussed here.

This is even more of a problem with the TP-22 socket. One can't be timid when shoving the lamp home. On the other hand, I don't know too many who haven't accidentally had a lamp break during insertion.

See also the threads: Corroding S4 bases and Help me fix ETC S4's.

Does that actually help keep the lamp from breaking? We always figured it was an over-engineered device to keep you from touching the lamp (its been in the tool-box since anyone got here, and none of us have ever actually used it... Just grab the base bit and work not to touch the envelope...)

 

[JD]

One caution on lamp insertion tools: Although we always take care not to touch or contaminate the lamp, few of us remember not to contaminate the tool. Whatever gets in the tool will be transferred to the lamp. Always best to keep those tools in some form of pouch when in the tool box.

 

[Les]

I have to disagree slightly with Les. A GLA is a long-life version of the GLC, and you would be replacing a 27,000 lumen, 300 hr. lamp with a 13,500 lumen, 1500 hr. lamp. To get true apples -> apples you would want to replace it with the GLC (300 hr, higher output), or with the higher wattage GLD lamp (750W version of the GLC).

Either is a much better lamp choice than the FEL, which has very poor collection in Ellipsoidal reflectors due to the large coil dimesions and acts like an inefficient oven. When I was an M.E. I relamped all my 5/50 Colortrans with GLCs and got almost as much output (perceived) at half the wattage of the FELs and saved a ton in energy and HVAC expenses.

You are absolutely right. My argument should have read more like "it would be hard to convince a school district to replace a stock of serviceable lighting instruments compatible with 575w lamps for another lighting instrument compatible with 575w lamps". Let's face it, to an uninformed school board, a glass reflector vs aluminum reflector doesn't mean much when the initial cost is so high and the current fixtures aren't in dire need of replacement. It would take a very long time for the savings in HVAC bills to pay them back when comparing the beam temperature of a 575w Source for vs a 575w 5/50. FEL's is a different story. Definitely lamp them down! Heck, it's hard enough getting some schools to replace instruments with asbestos whips and cracked lenses!

Question: Does trading a 575w 5/50 for a 575w Source Four REALLY keep your performance space cooler? I think not, because as someone said in the "coolbeam thread", the lamps produce roughly the same amount of heat, and it has to go somewhere. In a 5/50 a lot of it comes out with the beam, whereas a Source Four directs most of this heat backwards through the reflector. But the end result is the same: The heat still ends up in the same room.

 

[DELO72]

It's a simple factor of energy. 1000 Watts vs. 575 Watts. With both of these lamps you get around 26-27 Lumens per Watt, so there is no efficiency difference in that regard.

With Tungsten filament lamps 90% of that energy is transmitted as wasted heat energy. Only 10% is given off as usable light, which is part of why the Gov't is passing laws to outlaw Incandescent lamps.

With the FEL you are therefore generating ~900 watts of heat whereas you are only generating ~518 watts of heat using the GLC (Using the same 90% rule of inefficiency).

EDIT** Whoops! Mea culpa! Didn't read it correctly and see that you were comparing heat from a Source Four 575 Vs. heat from a 5/50 Colortran at 575. Yes, you are absolutely correct. Heat in total is the same, and only difference is the way their reflectors re-direct it, which I agree with you may not be worth the replacement cost for the entire fixtures. The most annoying part of the 5/50s for me was that they kept falling over. I nicknamed them Dominos for that reason. Being able to change the beam spead (with the right lens stops) was a nice feature of them, but those little rubber lens holders where a pain in the backside! Best bet for a small theatre or church looking to upgrade their fixtures is to go to a small exhibit/showcase put on by the various Distributors/Dealers in their area, take a look at the features and beam from the various companies in attendence, find the ones you like the best, and then call the big rental houses and see if they are selling used versions of the ones you want. At U. of Florida we got a sweet deal on some used Source Fours from 4Wall that way for almost half price. A coat of paint, some rubbing alcohol, bench focus, and a few plugs later I had some that were almost as good as new.

 

[Studio]

Apparently some schools *cough* mine *cough* can't even buy replacement lamps so all the lights work.

 

[Les]

It's a simple factor of energy. 1000 Watts vs. 575 Watts. With both of these lamps you get around 26-27 Lumens per Watt, so there is no efficiency difference in that regard.

With Tungsten filament lamps 90% of that energy is transmitted as wasted heat energy. Only 10% is given off as usable light, which is part of why the Gov't is passing laws to outlaw Incandescent lamps.

With the FEL you are therefore generating ~900 watts of heat whereas you are only generating ~518 watts of heat using the GLC (Using the same 90% rule of inefficiency).

Yes. Not sure if this is directed to me, but my comparison focuses on 575w HPL vs 575w GLA/C. Point being, you will generate about as much heat with a Source Four @ 575w as you will a 5/50 @ 575w, the heat is just directed differently. So touting Source Four's energy savings probably won't mean much to them when they can save just as much energy (and a lot more money) by doing a relamp. Not to say the 5/50 is as efficient as a Source Four in terms of light collection, but when it comes down to heat output, they're about the same.

There is the argument that you can use fewer Source Fours to light the same amount of space, but that's only a half truth. As long as you have the correct beam angles in your current fixtures, all you will have to deal with is a lower color temp and fewer lumens on stage. If you are covering every area (front light) with more than two instruments in your rep plot, you are probably over lighting. If you are covering every area with fewer than two instruments, you are probably under lighting.

It takes about 30 of the correctly sized instruments to front light a 15 area plot. That goes for Source Fours, 5/50's, 360Q's, etc.

 

[TCP]

This thread is five years old. Does anybody know of a good source for 5/50 bulb bases?

 

[derekleffew]

... Does anybody know of a good source for 5/50 bulb bases?

You mean sockets? Any theatrical dealer or lamp supplier will carry TP22 sockets.

 

[DELO72]

Really? Does the Colortran 5/50 use something other than the readily-available TP-22 or TP-220 socket?

OSRAM SYLVANIA - NEW HIGH PERFORMANCE TP22-XL and TP220-XL SOCKETS

I BELIEVE that the Colortrans use the TP220 socket on the right above with the heat sink. I do recall that they had different hole spacing than the Altman 360Qs, though... so I could be wrong on our solution working in them. They aren't terribly expensive, so if you call your supplier and ask for one you can test it out. Or-- if you can give me the hole spacing dimensions of the fixture cap, I can check it vs. the socket drawing and let you know first.

 

[ship]

same spacing on the TP22... upgraded versions. Same brand socket I think even in use and all replacements will work.

Wow getting heated in lots of points. Love the "Dominos" as per Grenade fixtures in a off line conversation for other name in another fixture type.

Never used the insertion tool or heard of problems especially that amount in full seated HPL lamps. I think I’ll pick one up, this especially if it works with all lamp types of G-9.5 or G-9.5hs. Sorry Derek I have not seen the fully seated problem in agreeing.

Way back when and years earlier I reported here about making a sch.40 pipe tool with hammer so as to help seat lamps into some brand new S-4 PAR fixtures that were rush order and a bit rough in casting. That was years ago and while random in general seating problems with a lamp base, I have heard no issues given the heat sink base in seating as long as the lamp is still bagged or cleaned afterwards from potential touch. "Problem solved" in a quote for all of us with young kids comes to mind from a TV show forced to watch which isn't that bad. Such quotes just kind of linger there the more you watch the same episode day after day..

Yea sorry, same TP-22 and it’s other versions of G-9.5 lamp socket any will work with longer leads as it’s bad karma to butt splice inside the fiberglass whip (against code I believe). Leviton don’t make this type of lamp socket so you will be looking for Buhl, Bender and Wurth, Ushio and Osram amongst a few other suppliers of the fairly standardized lamp base style domestically available thru any theater supplier, lamp or even electrical supplier locally or on-line. I would ignore Leviton for Colortan parts - there is a name and a brand bought out but not much more. Years ago I was still getting parts but I doubt at this point.

I have a few Colortran parts as with other parts extra from my collection for many brands or often know where to get them. Often best to PM me about parts needs if otherwise not available. I can often even fabricate duplicates. For fasteners... do your work and figure out thru McMaster Carr if you can find what in large stock of fastener types they have available. Often if you really look you might find Altman is even specifying McMaster part numbers in at least their old part numbers for common fasteners. Some parts no matter the brand at times will be a little harder to find. If the brand is still active, you can find the parts thru them in paying more, but otherwise if say a five knobe knob, does it really matter if the same thing but different head style it working? Often just getting the right part even if a little different in head of it will save money.

Thanks on the post for noting a detail I have fought a lot over the years. PA and others are great sources but not the only sources for gear. Your local supplier might at times be not as cheap but it could add up in discount factor and they certainly will save you in shipping costs. Recommending a source to get stuff from is fine but please keep in mind that there is hundreds of sources of gear including any local suppliers, suppliers such as I work for but don’t actively seek sales in on-line in my off time etc. for. Anyone think I could not be a better supplier than PA for parts were I marketing sales from where I work and the time? Let’s keep it fair and un-balanced in if PA is your main supplier listing them but also noting local and as a bench mark for doing the sale say Pa in what you can get. Just trying to be fair and I could undercut but I do no look for sales and will not do sales for what I advise for on on-line. Good supplier but there is a lot of them even local.
On Colortran parts I have some as with other brands of parts. Others on the web also might. General fasteners thru in general suppliers, lenses thru Altman in same parts, lamp sockets it’s a lot in general many suppliers as a lamp socket that will replace. Can fabricate parts not stocked in duplication but not cheap.

On the best lamp for a 50/50, the Philips #6981P Phillips #51957-3 is better for high output than the GLD in possibly if bench focus proper might better match the output of a ECC S-4. More expensive of course and 400 hour lamp life at 115 volts. Good or equal fiament though. Believe now that the HPL patent has expired that a whole new line of lamps is coming soon. This in reminding Mark about the HPR lamp concept especially.