budget disclosed after event

[sotalight16]

I'm working on this event that needs a rig that will work for a lecture, performance, and dance but will not know the budget until after the event when the proceeds are counted. I have some equipment of my own to contribute but am wondering how to figure out a manageable rental with no estimated budget. the event is going to be decently sized at about 15,000 or so and there wont really be time for lighting adjustments. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[MrsFooter]

My advice?

Run. Run away as fast as you can.

Let me back up and make sure I've got my facts correct. You're doing a freelance gig for what sounds like a rather large company but they won't give you a budget, right? I'm guessing you don't have a contract either spelling out what you will be paid and if you will be compensated for any purchases or rentals, huh? This sounds like a terrible idea. So they won't tell you until after the fact what you can spend. That means that before the fact you're spending your own money and hoping they compensate you, right? What's to say that they give you a budget that's bigger or equal to what you spent? What happens if they don't? The answer is you loose a ton of money that, as a high school student, I'm guessing you can't afford to throw away.

From the outside, it looks like they're trying to scam you. A ton of organization goes into an event for 15,000. If they can't give you a budget then there are larger fundamental problems, and you shouldn't trust them as far as you can throw them. It sounds like they're trying to give themselves a loophole in which they can avoid paying you if they don't bring in as much as they hope.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope there's facts I'm missing and more to the situation than appears. But were it me in your shoes, I would move those shoes towards the door as fast as humanly possible.

Merde!

 

[sotalight16]

I'm working with a portion of the event organizers and i'm doing it for free but they are paying for all rental costs and such its just that the organizing body will not give a budget because they dont have the money because it is with a self supporting organization ie 12 step program. Should i get a quote on equipment and then just cut it down or could i attempt to get some kind of discount at the rental house. They are really low on funds to put on the event and they dont have the numbers from other facets of the production costs to calculate it properly.

 

[LavaASU]

A ton of organization goes into an event for 15,000. If they can't give you a budget then there are larger fundamental problems, and you shouldn't trust them as far as you can throw them.

Ditto. A 15,000 person event is not a matter of hey lets throw this event! If that's how they're treating it then you don't want to be anywhere near there (working or attending!). I've seen poorly planned (and by poorly planned they seem to be WAY ahead of your event) events with a quarter the audience go horribly wrong. Things like security, venue (where is this? An arena? Stadium? Convention center?), crowd control, exits, bathrooms, water, ect all will require a budget and planning.

Also, if the main focus of this event is on the performances, I'm rather surprised/skeptical that they'd be asking a high school student to oversee the production. Even if the budget magically appeared, any event of that magnitude will involve big power, substantial rigging, and gear worth hundreds of thousands if not millions. I don't care how great of a technician you are, unless you're 18+ no one in their right mind is going to let you oversee that level of production and responsibility. That said if they get their act together it would be a great opportunity to assist and learn from the TD/PM.

 

[Edrick]

I'm pretty sure that's not the way it's suppose to work, regardless of what their excuse is (and this is where non-profits annoy the crap out of me) they have funding, they get grants. They should set aside a set amount of a budget so they have something to work with. The ones who say "well do it for free cause you're helping out a cause or well there's work in the future for you" run away from those. I get volunteering your time as an offer or if they ask. However for them to say well we'll pay you but we might not be able to pay you is blasphemy. Just like any other event / business if you put something on you set a budget and you hope to exceed what you put into it with a profit from ticket sales or other donations. Sometimes you loose, sometimes you break even, other times you profit.

But the gimmik "we're a non-profit or we're doing this because of XYZ reason so you should donate your time and possibly not get paid for equipment" just doesn't fly.

 

[sotalight16]

it has a venue and im not solely in charge but im doing most of the legwork because my dad and i have different skills. He is a certified rigger and electrician and such and doesn't like to deal with rentals and that type of a thing when he can avoid it. It is also only a portion of the event that we are dealing with here. We are not utilizing our own money, we would use the event's credit card. the question is really what do we need to put it together. its a med sized room in a hotel. I have a follow spot, 8 cheep par cans, 2 4 Chanel dimmers and an 8 Chanel console, and 2 disco lights. i also have access to source 4's in a limited amount like 18-25 i would need a new console and dimmer packs to utilize these lights. what recommendations can you give (besides that this is a poorly planed event and that i shouldn't be involved or that i'm too young to be in any position of authority because "i don't have enough experience" {sick of hearing that crap})

 

[xander]

Disregarding the opinions on whether you should or shouldn't be doing this, if I were in your situation, this is what I would do. 1) Come up with the rig that satisfies all of your needs. 2) Bid that rig to the local shops. 3) Come back to the producers with their quotes. 4) They say "ok, great!" or "nope, needs to be cheaper." 5) Go back to the drawing board and repeat. Don't use any of your own equipment until absolutely necessary. And then, make sure you are okay with the chances that something will happen to it and you will not be compensated for it.

They wont give you a budget to work from, then you just have to guess and check. If they don't want to spend any money, then they aren't going to have a good show. It's all up to them. Just make sure that when corners get cut they do not cut safety. And MAKE SURE YOU HAVE IN WRITING THAT YOU ARE NOT LIABLE FOR ANYTHING. When you are not an employee the legal stuff gets hairy.

-Tim

 

[LavaASU]

it has a venue and im not solely in charge but im doing most of the legwork because my dad and i have different skills. He is a certified rigger and electrician and such and doesn't like to deal with rentals and that type of a thing when he can avoid it. It is also only a portion of the event that we are dealing with here. We are not utilizing our own money, we would use the event's credit card. the question is really what do we need to put it together. its a med sized room in a hotel. I have a follow spot, 8 cheep par cans, 2 4 Chanel dimmers and an 8 Chanel console, and 2 disco lights. i also have access to source 4's in a limited amount like 18-25 i would need a new console and dimmer packs to utilize these lights. what recommendations can you give (besides that this is a poorly planed event and that i shouldn't be involved or that i'm too young to be in any position of authority because "i don't have enough experience" {sick of hearing that crap})

Well that is significantly different than the first post implied. I never said you don't have enough experience. I just said that if you're <18 you shouldn't be doing rigging alone. Trust me, I know how frustrating it is to have people saying you're too young/inexperienced/ect. With your dad involved that takes care of that.

Yes, if they won't give you a set budget come up with what you realistically want (but beyond the bare minimum), bid it to ~3 local shops and take that to the producers. Be prepared to cut it.

An EXAMPLE rig Without knowing any specifics that MIGHT work depending on the rigging/stage/performances would be a front truss with the appropriate beam angle S4s in warm and cool and any gobo specials needed, a rear truss with s4 pars as backlight and movers if wanted/needed. For a 24x 12 stage (a common size, but likely small for the event) you could use 12 s4 pars in 4 systems on the rear truss, 4 575W moving head spots, and 8 s4 lekos on the front truss (6 wash, 2 specials on the podium). This could be run off a 12 channel sensor pack if you 3-fer'd the rear pars (lamped at 575). If you only use conventionals an etc express if you want cue stacks or any 2-scene with enough channels if not would work console wise. If you do use movers then you'd want a pearl/hog/chamsys/ect.

 

[jglodeklights]

The reality of things is that this is still not how things are supposed to work. Any production, but especially fundraisers, should not be banking on proceeds from itself to pay the piper(s). Going over the top (or even being reasonable based on the scope of the event) and saying, "It will be fine; we'll make enough at the event to cover it." is a fast and easy way to put a company or charitable organization in a pretty deep hole from which it can not recover easily. Especially in today's tanked economy, people are less and less willing to put forth the money, or even travel to an event of this size because of being more strapped for cash.

I really think you, and your father, need to pound into them that regardless of what information they have or think they have about other areas, for your area they need to tell you how much money they are willing to lose. For that matter, you also need to know the credit limit you are working with, too.

 

[ruinexplorer]

First off, I wouldn't plan on rigging anything. Even if the hotel has rigging points and do not require you to use a specific labor pool to do your rigging (they won't care that your dad is a certified rigger in those instances), you will likely be required to have a substantial ($1,000,000 or more) insurance to cover that portion of the event alone. Of course this may be waived if you are using their services, but with your budget constraints, this would probably be out of your reach.

So, my next suggestion would be ground supported lighting. I prefer truss on bases as opposed to standard lighting trees as you can dress them up for a fancier look with them being out in the open. Also, they can give you more options for mounting the lights.

I assume that they are not using projection for this event. If so, a PAR wash is generally acceptable. I would recommend seeing if they will pay for pipe and drape which gives a much nicer backdrop than most hotel ballroom walls. You can then add colorful uplighting with narrow beam PARs (which you may want to do other parts of the room as well). You can also often attach some inexpensive white spandex "sails" to give dimension to the pipe and drape and accept the color better. Throw in your disco lights for intro/exit type lighting for getting people jazzed, but keep them on the edge of the stage.

This sounds like a pretty standard corporate type show. Bid it out to the in-house AV company (will most likely be the most expensive option, be willing to haggle), but as suggested, also get bids from a couple other local rental companies. They will likely give you a better price (as they don't have to share the profit with the hotel) but make sure that the hotel does not have a surcharge for outside vendors.

 

[mstaylor]

There was a big charity event held in my area recently. We walked away from it because of poor planning. They hired a guy that no longer works for me because of poor safety practices. They also used off the street guys to hand it, because you know anybody can do what we do. During load-in they had a partial amputation. They hired 5 old national acts for draw. They figured 6000 to 10,000 people, drew 1000.
The point is that experience, or lack there of, isn't the question.It is working with professionals over volunteers when it comes to liability.

 

[len]

the event is going to be decently sized at about 15,000

its a med sized room in a hotel. I have a follow spot, 8 cheep par cans, 2 4 Chanel dimmers and an 8 Chanel console, and 2 disco lights. i also have access to source 4's in a limited amount like 18-25 i would need a new console and dimmer packs to utilize these lights.

So which is it? a medium sized hotel ballroom (which to me means 500 - 750 capacity) or a 15,000 person event?

Your first step is to get in touch with the venue and find out what is allowed, what they have for rigging points, if you can use them, the labor issue (union/non-union, etc.), available load in time, available strike time, etc. And then plan for less access and more cost. One of the venues I was at last Saturday changed our load in from 10 AM to 2 PM for a 6 pm start. And I didn't find out until 6 pm the night before. Hotels do that all the time.

Then find out how big the area to be lit is, who is in that area, etc.

Once you know the limitations of the venue and the requirements of the job you have a minimum and a maximum and you can make some plans within that. Then start cutting stuff based on budget.

But it would be very difficult for anyone here to give you specific advice based on the minimal information you've provided. I would also get something in writing from these people that you are working for. Make sure you both know exactly who is doing what, when, and for how much before you lift a finger. Not doing so will only lead to ill will when someone doesn't get what they think they were promised.

 

[What Rigger?]

The given/known circumstances so far indicate this thing will go pear shaped, and probably early on.

Don't do it.

 

[WorldwidelLaserLightShow]

This is a rare situation with post event budgets. Most 501(c)3 non profit fundraisers are produced with a set amount of funds then they try to raise money for their cause. This arrangement seems unusual for main stream event production. Just a few thoughts ..........

Marcus Chapman CTO
Tribal Existance Productions Worldwide

 

[FatherMurphy]

For most of the 'fundraising' events the company I work for has handled (like telethons), 80-90% of the money 'raised' is corporate sponsorship money pledged a month or more before the event, and then added onto the toteboard while the company's workers are manning the phone banks. The amounts coming in over the phones usually aren't enough to cover the production costs, but the telethon is still held as a 24 hour advertisement/thank you to the corporations. Since it's all pledged ahead of time, it's basically cash in the bank before load-in.

Pretty much anybody who does shows has to realize that you have to have enough money/advance sales in the bank up front to pay all the bills, you can't count on the crowds to show up at the doors at showtime. More than one experienced concert promoter has taken a serious bath due to weather, bad timing, competition, etc. There's some types of events we don't even unlock the doors of the truck for load-in until we have a certified check in hand.

mstaylor's story reminded me of a local bar that wanted everything donated to a fundraising concert - we wouldn't do it for free, so they hired a cheaper generator and found a volunteer electrician, who tied them into the 480 volt side of the genny and smoked two audio racks and a 36 channel dimmer. The kicker?... The band was Great White, on their fire survivors' fundraising tour.

I am curious on one point, though... if you're using the charity's credit card for all the payments, how does it work if they decide post-show that the lighting budget needed to be smaller than what was used? Does the charity start cancelling charges? How is the average rental shop going to react to that, both now and when you (personally) try to rent from them again in the future?

 

[gafftaper]

For events where I'm working with people who don't really know what they are doing in the world of tech, I will put together two or three basic rental packages with rough estimates. Then go to the producer and say,
"Here are three options for renting gear.
1) $1000... some pars on trees
2) $3000... a nice collection of conventional with a few tricks
3) $20,000... lots of cool stuff that spins and does tricks.

Now, how much do you want to pay?"

This way you are educating them and they are making the choice. Then you go out and get your actual price quotes.

All that said, I too strongly advise you to seriously consider running away. This project sounds doomed.

 

[shiben]

I'm working on this event that needs a rig that will work for a lecture, performance, and dance but will not know the budget until after the event when the proceeds are counted. I have some equipment of my own to contribute but am wondering how to figure out a manageable rental with no estimated budget. the event is going to be decently sized at about 15,000 or so and there wont really be time for lighting adjustments. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Lecture, performance and dance. Now there are 3 very different things... Dance tends to require lots of sidelight, if they are bringing in professional dancers they will want/need at least 2 or 3 booms/side with a minimum of 3 lights on each (I tend to roll with 8-12 S4/boom myself), plenty of high side and back light and some specials. Minimal front. Performance, assuming theater, will be somewhat similar in that they will want piles of side, top and back light and at least 1 or 2 washes from the front, along with some specials. Lectures are more top light, plenty of podium special, and extra fronts to pick up a speaker leaving the podium, all carefully focused so the screen/s are not hit. I would guess that for a 15000 person event (probably a breakout room if your in a ballroom or something) your looking at 2 trusses of PARs, a pile of lekos on the front truss, possibly some booms near the back, some form of sidelighting system (be it booms, trees or ladders, all fit on there somehow), a pile of pipe and drape to make it look nice, table or audience lighting setup to make the audience look nice, audio so as people can be heard, the list goes on. My guess is someone has a budget number sheet! One thinks the hotel/convention center wants to get paid at some point...

On a more personal note, if your sensitive to people telling you your too young or dont have enough experience, get over that or find a new job, perhaps as a delivery driver for pizza hut. Odds are in 5 years you will be told the same thing, and there will always be something your not experienced enough for. Its cool that you and your dad can work on this together. Thats not something everyone gets a chance to have happen, and if I had gotten experience at pro level events when i was 14-17, who knows what I would be doing now. However, the fact remains that if your not 18, people dont give a s*** about what you think/know/have done. A lot of insurance wont even look at you, and even past that... Im 23 and cant use power tools at my own college because of insurance issues (does it make me angry? you better believe it), and its something you will need to get used to. I got told last night I was too young to think about driving a platform lift (the rental insurance requires someone 25+ to operate it, even thought I have driven 90' booms before, and dozens of different platforms). Not trying to be debbie downer here, but it is the case that this is going to be "a thing" until you get to be 30+ and have more shows than a 2 page single spaced resume can possibly document under your belt.

 

[FMEng]

Just the description of the event doesn't quite make sense. There are maybe a couple dozen people in the nation that can draw 15,000 people for a lecture. Unless the headliner is the President of the United States or Billy Graham, then there is a strong chance that the promoter of this event is hallucinating. If the budget only pencils out with a five digit crowd in attendence, then they might just lose their shirts (and yours).

 

[Kelite]

I'm working on this event that needs a rig that will work for a lecture, performance, and dance but will not know the budget until after the event when the proceeds are counted. I have some equipment of my own to contribute but am wondering how to figure out a manageable rental with no estimated budget. the event is going to be decently sized at about 15,000 or so and there wont really be time for lighting adjustments. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

SO..... What is the status of this, uh, err, umm... opportunity?