Installs building a new sound system for a theatre

[AlexD]

Ok this is going to be a big one. I am designing a whole new sound system for my school drama facility. I have been given a budget of 1,500 pounds (IV lost my pound symbol on my key board...) what I want to do initially is to get a loudspeaker set up with surround sound and sound reinforcement. We have 6 cables set up on ever side of the room 3 on each side for surround sound. We have yet to set up a multi core in the building it’s self but we have plans to do that. I am going to be running SCS cueing soft ware for this system. I am planning on buying the soundcraft LX7 ii 16 change soundboard, is this a good sound board and will it be able to do what I want.

I know that to make this system work I need to run the pc through a sound card, the sound card into the mixer and then take that though the amps to the speakers. What I am confused on is how I connect the soundcard to the mixer so that I can control all of the speakers individually.

Sound reinforcement
I am planning on having two condensers of opposite sides of the room permanently and having them run through a feedback eliminator. I do not have any mic’s at the moment and I don’t know what ones to get so could you advise me on what to get there.

Surround sound
I do not know what speakers to get for the surround sound system or amp so could you advise me there as well. I know there is a special amp you use for surround sound.

What I have at the moment
we have gamma 12/300 passive speakers and an amp to run them. We also have two subs one of witch I do not know if it works and I don’t know what model they are or even witch socket is the input and which is the out so I don’t think we will be using them.

Speaker set up
I am having the 6 surround sound speakers and the gamma 12/300 passives are a 2 part speaker so I am having the sub on the floor and I am mounting the tweeters on the grid that we have. I am thinking if I have enough money left over that I will get two more speakers to mount in the middle of the stage. Also when there is a production on I am thinking of getting my music departments pa system and using it at the front of the stage for the vocals to be passed through. (This is a tequnec that I saw at London’s national threat and I haven’t really heard anything about it, so is this any good or doesn’t it really matter?) Also if I am going to get two new speakers what would you suggest?

 

[AlexD]

oh and if a mod is reading this and see's some spelling mistakes u can change them if u want im dislecsic so very bad at spelling. sorry

 

[derekleffew]

oh and if a mod is reading this and see's some spelling mistakes u can change them if u want im dislecsic so very bad at spelling. sorry

It is not the moderator's job, nor will they function, to correct your spelling and grammatical errors. I'm sorry that you suffer from Dyslexia, but since you are aware of it, one would think you would be even more careful about how you present yourself. Having a disease does not automatically exempt or excuse you from common courtesies such as punctuation and the shift key.

You're likely to receive much better answers if your questions are coherent. See also http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/question-day/8599-cb-technical-forum-english-class.html.

 

[AlexD]

ye i would do more grama if i could but i just cant... and i only said if thay wanted coz a lot of form i have been in kind mods do. and btw its not a disse. Tthere i have made changes to it, I hope its up to your standers...

 

[kiwitechgirl]

So let me see if I've got this straight; you're a school student and they've given you, unconditionally, £1500 to get a new sound system. Judging by your post, you have pretty much no idea where to start. My advice? Go to a local company and get them to advise you. We can give you all the advice in the world, but without seeing your space the advice is not going to help you much. Get someone who knows what they're doing to come in, look at the space and advise you on what to install. Otherwise you're going to end up with something unsuited to the space.

What I can advise you on is SCS as I use it on a daily basis. We run it on a high-spec PC with stripped down XP as an OS (avoiding Vista), going to an M-Audio box (similar to this) via Firewire, and then the M-Audio has eight outputs which go into eight channels on the desk, and then through the eight outputs on the desk into four amplifiers. We drive SCS pretty hard, and provided your PC is dedicated, has NOTHING ELSE on it except what you need to run the M-Audio box (ie absolutely no games of any description and no connection to the Internet), and is relatively high-powered, you'll be OK. We've had a few issues in the past, mostly due to us underestimating how powerful the software is and so trying to find ways to do things that it actually does automatically, but the software author is incredibly helpful and questions on the forum get answered very quickly.

 

[AlexD]

Thank you i will get some one in to help

About the m-audio, Its the profire 610 that you use? an that is what omuncates the mixer with teh pc? I just want to be sure. This is basicly the soundcard?

Also on SCS i am planing on getting the standed version. Will that be able to run all the speakers? Becaus form what i have read on SCS it seems that only professional plus can do ultiple speaker chanles, If it helps i woul liek to have 6 chanles for the Surround sound, two stage and the vocal speakers.

 

[AlexD]

Also will a soundcraft LX7 ii 16 chanle mixer be able to do what i am planing?

link to specs on the mixer
Soundcraft Spirit LX7ii - 16 Channel - Mixers/Analog - 16 Channel

 

[museav]

Alex, you seem to be making the very common mistake of jumping right into the equipment 'stuff' without first identifying what it is you are trying to do. What are your goals for the audio system? How is the space used? What is the space like? What do you already have? Is all the conduit, power and other infrastructure required already in place? The point is to first consider what you need the system to do and the conditions under which it will have to operate and then you can develop a solution that supports those, part of which would be determining the physical equipment.

For example, is the space large enough that the audio system has to provide speech reinforcement or is all speech handled without any reinforcement? Is the space a proscenium layout with fixed seating or a 'black box' with totally flexible seating and arrangement? Also, you don't mention any inputs other than a condenser mic on each side wall with feedback eliminators and while I am not sure what those mics are for or why the feedback eliminators, I have to guess that there are likely some other inputs and perhaps outputs involved.

The LX7ii is not really intended to handle surround sound or the quantity of outputs you noted. It might be able to do it by using all the auxes for the surround channels, but it would be very awkward. Quite frankly, an approximately $2,400 budget is likely not near enough for the type of capability you mention, especially since it sounds like you have nothing presently installed and minimal equipment to reuse. Keep in mind that the cost for a system is not just the big pieces but also all the ancillary items like cable, racks, mounting hardware and so on. Those items start to add up and typically mean you actually have much less than the total budget for the major items.

Speaking of existing equipment, the only Gamma 12/300 passive speaker that I can find is not a two part speaker, it is a typical full range box with a 12" woofer and compression driver on a compact horn (Carlsbro). In addition, the idea of using subs likely means some type of external crossover and/or processing. Take these apparent discrepancies and the fact that you have some existing subwoofers but apparently aren't considering using them because you aren't sure if one works and can't figure out which connection is the input, and that all indicates that you will likely need some help figuring out how laying out the system, installing it and making it work. That effort alone may use much of, if not exceed, your budget.

So at least based on what you have said, it quite bluntly sounds like your vision and your budget may not reconcile and thus you may have to focus on what are the priorities in regards to the functionality provided, then develop a plan that will support those immediate needs now and allow you to later evolve the system to accommodate the other functionalities desired.

 

[AlexD]

The style of the room is proscenium layout, we allways have the stage in teh same place but the chairs can be moved but normaly we have the same set up.

As for the two mics there ware for genral sound renforcment. Becaus its a school some of the children cant project there voices very well so we do someties have to get some condensors from our music department to use. Other inputs will be other mics that we will eb useing in productions like wireless head sets, pit band and other mics taht we will use when we need to. the system is also going to be bassed more on the cueing softwere (SCS). ALso i should have said that this will be a thing that is teached posible.

Our school likes to go big on there produtions. we have high quolity lighting and the backstage, set design and all the other parts are all high quolity. So the sound system is basicly to finish this off and get the sound to be at a high quolity becaus at the moment its very simple and not very good.

Form what u said on the speakers I wanted to mount them on the grid but we dont have the brackets for that and i now dout that i will be able to find them. Also form what u said on the budget makes sence and i think i will not have the surround sound or the sound renforcment.

On the whole what i want out of this system is mainly the cueing softwear and to have a good quality sound system. i think i will just get someone whos a profesnol to help me out.

You are sugesting leaveing out the complext stuff and just start with the basics of a cuple speakers, cueing softwere and the ability to mic up a pit band and other mics on stage, And form that exspand into sound renforcment and surround sound?

 

[AlexD]

Also this crossover thing, I dont relly understand that could you exsplane that to me? Or do u know of somewhere that exsplanes it?

 

[museav]

You are sugesting leaveing out the complext stuff and just start with the basics of a cuple speakers, cueing softwere and the ability to mic up a pit band and other mics on stage, And form that exspand into sound renforcment and surround sound?

I always suggest that my clients start by listing all their goals for the systems in terms of basic functionality, operation, etc. If they have specific equipment in mind then they can identify that but it helps to know why, whether it is because they have to have it to meet tech riders or for compatibility with other systems on campus is different than it being because someone told them they needed it or they read about in an some ad.

Then I ask them to take all the things they identified and put them in some order of priority. A line item list from highest to lowest priority is nice but even better is knowing which fall into "must have right away" versus "need at some time but can be in the future" versus "wish list" type categories. This can be a very important step if you have multiple users as you often start finding some things that are important to everyone, some not important to most but critical to one or two, some that only one person thinks may ever be beneficial, etc.

I personally then take that 'programmatic' or 'needs analysis' information along with any hard data such as the space and any budget and try to develop a schematic design that addresses all the immediate needs while also trying to accommodate as many of the future goals as is practical.

This not only helps get the system to offer the desired functionality, it also provides a record of the expressed functionality of the system, which can than later be used to assess how well that the stated goals are achieved throughout the project.

In you case, it sounds as though the speech reinforcement aspect will be critical and may have to be the initial focus. You may be able to do a couple of things like a custom patch panel for the surround speaker locations and some of the console outputs so that you could temporarily hang a couple of powered speakers and get signal to them if desired without having to install a permanent surround system at this time.

 

[AlexD]

Ok ye that helps, the suround system is allredy permently inplace its just a mater of getting the equipment and wireing it up. I dont quite understand what u were sujesting with the patch panle?

if that sounds sarcastic its not.

 

[Ric]

Our school likes to go big on there produtions. we have high quolity lighting and the backstage, set design and all the other parts are all high quolity. So the sound system is basicly to finish this off and get the sound to be at a high quolity becaus at the moment its very simple and not very good.

And here lies the problem, please don't take offense at this, but if you have to ask questions regarding designing a sound system, what it's goals and expected use are, and then get advice here (this forum), then you are likely not going to improve the system in any way. From the budget (1500 pounds)you have given I would expect all you could realistically afford are a budget console & some powered speakers on stands.

I suspect realistically that you may have a system installed that functions, but the issues most likely lie with their not being a person sufficiently experienced with sound in your facility to operate the equipment competently.
And you that you are probably in the commonly built gymtorium (gym used as a Theatre) which has terrible acoustics for performances.

Surround sound. Is great for the home, but is definitely not suitable, and is rarely used in any large performance, let alone small ones. The complexity of setting it up & providing decent quality sound along with the 'surround experience' for many seats in a Theatre is just too much for most performance spaces. It costs lots of money and time to do it well.
You will find that most theatre performances are actually run MONO, (or dual Mono/Stereo) in order to make sure everyone in any seat can hear the performance well.

If you are serious about doing this right then you should contract an acoustic consultant to evaluate your spaces needs and discuss the issues. You are likely to spend your mentioned budget just on this...

 

[kiwitechgirl]

Thank you i will get some one in to help

About the m-audio, Its the profire 610 that you use? an that is what omuncates the mixer with teh pc? I just want to be sure. This is basicly the soundcard?

Also on SCS i am planing on getting the standed version. Will that be able to run all the speakers? Becaus form what i have read on SCS it seems that only professional plus can do ultiple speaker chanles, If it helps i woul liek to have 6 chanles for the Surround sound, two stage and the vocal speakers.

It's not the Profire 610, but it's something pretty similar - it's an older model which has been replaced (I can't remember what it is and I'm not at work), and that is what goes between the computer and the mixing desk. It's a single Firewire input into the M-Audio box, and then eight audio outputs to the desk (at least, ours is). We run the Professional version of SCS, but by the looks of it the standard version will let you run two stereo channel pairs whereas we have four stereo pairs. So no, it won't do what you want it to. I'm a little puzzled as to why you want "surround" sound; SCS Professional does cope with 5.1 sound but realistically that's only of use to you if you're showing movies. Or do you want to be able to send sound effects to specific speakers only - we do this a lot (eg a car arriving offstage). Or, do you just want speakers all the way around the auditorium? I reiterate, get someone who knows what they're doing in to advise.

 

[AlexD]

Thank for your help guys. This is a much bigger than I though it would be so I’m going to get a professional to come in and help out. I see what u mean by the surround sound won’t be any good, can’t you set it so that you can direct where the sound is coming from even better if u set the speakers as mono?

 

[AlexD]

This looks just like the model of sound desk that I have at the moment but it’s not I believe that this is an updated version. If you have any idea what the earlier version is could you tell me please?

Behringer Eurodesk SX2442FX

 

[Chris15]

There is a vast difference between surround sound (a la Dolby 5.1 etc) and effect speakers positioned at different place around a room. With a 5.1 setup you need to achieve even coverage from each speaker to every seat and that's somewhat impractical for any reasonable size venue. Yes it can be done - think of people like Cirque doing individual speakers in head rests...

Effects are a different story and are very much a design tool.

Hanging speakers from a grid is rigging. In accordance with the site policy, our advice is to enlist the services of a qualified professional. Get rigging wrong and people die, plain and simple.

Most of us tend to cringe at seeing Behringer mentioned, it has a high noise floor and a short mean time between visits to the service bench...

Why one would use M Audio hardware when it's not required to run Pro Tools is somewhat of a question to me...

Your subs (if passive) probably have an input and a thru connector that are identical and wired in parallel so either can be used for either purpose. If the subs are active, the female XLR is the input and the male the output.

Respectfully, it's been difficult to extract the meaning of a number of the OP's posts. To try and hide behind a condition is essentially a bad tradesman blaming his tools. Once you get out of school, people won't want to hear excuses. If you however are making a reaosnable effort and that comes through in your interactions with people then a goodly number of people will do their best to work with you...

 

[AlexD]

Ye at the moment I am trying to get info so I can present it to a professional that will come in and help us design this system, like the m audio we will not be getting its an example of a piece of equipment that could be used so the professional can give a cheaper more suited alternative. And the subs there are two 1/4" jacks at the back and that it.

And are you saying that Behringer is a bad make?

 

[achstechdirector]

From my experience with Behringer, it does it job in theatre settings. I have heard that it is not so good handling high level signals. I have had Behringer equipment for years and still in great condition without having to be sent for service once. The price initially turned me away from Behringer, but after experiencing Behringer close up, I am a fan of it for schools with smaller budgets.

 

[museav]

Alex, don't worry about the equipment specifics unless there is something for which you have a specific need. Let the professional you hire work with you to determine what equipment fit your needs and for now focus on the functional and operational aspects so that you can provide them the best basis to work from. Quite frankly, the last client that tried to give me an equipment list and then expected me to be responsible for making that work and meet their expectations I rather bluntly told that either I could design the system or they could, but that I could not take responsibility for a system that someone else dictated. I'd rather walk away from that situation then potentally be responsible for what I believed would be a less than acceptable result.


I believe that Behringer has a less than stellar reputation for several reasons. While they make some very good value products, and a few plain good ones, they also make some cheap, unreliable products and other than getting opinions from other users the difference is not always apparent.

My personal concerns with Behringer are primarily with their business ethics. Not only has Behringer been successfully sued by several other manufacturers related to intellectual property infringements when they 'copied' existing products a bit too closely, but a few years ago they also ran into serious trouble for importing devices that did not have FCC certification. And not just one or two products but 50 products. And not just based on a misunderstanding for a short period but for up to five years (2000-2005) including almost a year after being notified by the FCC of the situation, during which time Behringer apparently continued marketing the non-certified products. In 2007 the FCC levied a $1,000,000 fine against Behringer in relation to this issue, a fine that Behringer subsequently fought and lost. Some of the arguments presented for a proposed reduction in the fine are possibly indicative of their corporate beliefs, for example Behringer argued that several models involved had been discontinued before the FCC made them aware of the problem despite the fact that internal communications apparently showed that while Behringer had discontinued production of those products, they still continued to sell existing inventory even after they were aware of the certification violations.

I understand the issues related to having limited budget and the necessities that imposes and I leave everyone to make their own judgment. I simply thought that some additional information might help clarify why some people have less than ideal opinions of Behringer.