Buying Robotic lights
- Thread starterSpikesgirl
- Start date
Sounds like you have boys who want toys Char5lie
Maybe they should do a little reading and research on how to actually use the toys before spending any money. You should try to put them in contact with someone like our own Icewolf08 who has toys but uses them like tools. Is there a big theater in the area with some toys that you can put them in touch with?
One more note arguing for the Gaff method... the biggest theater in the Pacific Northwest (with an inventory pushing 1000 lighting instruments) has color scrollers, rotators etc... but they don't have a single mover. They feel it's not worth the money or hassle to purchase and maintain movers when the Gaff Method works just fine. Ok, I have to admit I first developed "the method" after talking to these guys.
Maybe they should do a little reading and research on how to actually use the toys before spending any money. You should try to put them in contact with someone like our own Icewolf08 who has toys but uses them like tools. Is there a big theater in the area with some toys that you can put them in touch with?
One more note arguing for the Gaff method... the biggest theater in the Pacific Northwest (with an inventory pushing 1000 lighting instruments) has color scrollers, rotators etc... but they don't have a single mover. They feel it's not worth the money or hassle to purchase and maintain movers when the Gaff Method works just fine. Ok, I have to admit I first developed "the method" after talking to these guys.
Spikesgirl
Active Member
Good call on the 'toys' idea, Gaff. I'm sort of leaning the same way. Had a long lunch with the Producing Director yeaterday and he admitted that we are half a year behind on the new phase of the sound system. We offered to make up whatever monies the theater was lacking to move onto this next phase as opposed to buying two new moving mirrors(we are NOT buying moving lights - I've travelled to Sacramento one too many times returing these for repairs). Told him nine wireless mics and sub woofer or moving mirrors, it was his call entirely. He's getting back to me.
My old theater was running both moving mirrors and moving lights, but we have to wait until the new TD is installed as the current TD (my old supervisor) HATES SCT (my current theater) with a passion that no one can match. He had a pissing match with our Producing director and lost, so that avenue is out. Our only other big theater is a road house and they load in/out whatever is needed per show - theater has no equipment of its own, per se, save a few ellipses. More research is definitely needed though.
Hey Tim I don't have any prices for you but I've heard people are getting price quotes VERY close to Express prices for the basic ION without wing panel. Given the option it's ION all the way. While an Express is a great board, a 300 is actually a more advanced board than an Express in some ways. So you would be going backward in technology to an Express. Unless you absolutely can't afford them, it makes no sense right now to not buy either an Ion, Congo Jr., or one of the Strand Palettes. Get price quotes and demos on all of them. I'm sure you will find one in your price range and all of them are dramatically more advanced than an Express
Its for a catholic all girls school, the teacher has no idea how anything works. We train the girls on how to use everything. They have a strand SV (96 channels). And their catwalk is useless for anything moving. Its a tight area to hang a leko in. In their upgrade (took them 8 years) we are specing source 4jr's (limited budget) and an express, because thats all they will ever need. They want anyone to be able to come in push up a fader and make a light come on.
Ok now back on subject, i'd look at the clay paky alphas over a varilight any day, unless its a VL1000 (more buget minded, and like the tungston lamp source) which my work around is either color correct the lekos to match the movers or color correct the movers to match the lekos. I know the profiles will let you do this. The others may also, i cannot remember.
Ok now back on subject, i'd look at the clay paky alphas over a varilight any day, unless its a VL1000 (more buget minded, and like the tungston lamp source) which my work around is either color correct the lekos to match the movers or color correct the movers to match the lekos. I know the profiles will let you do this. The others may also, i cannot remember.
First off, I love the good old Express. It's the number one selling console in history for a reason and they will be around a long time. However at this point it makes a lot more sense to buy a newer console to me. There are just too many really good options out there with dramatically better technology in the same price range.
If you only want to run individual channels with the occasional sub check out the ETC Smartfade 2496. Its 48 channels when the fader is up to A and another 48 channels when the fader is down to B. You can record presets. VERY simple operation and it should be quiet a bit cheaper than an Express but still ETC quality.
If you want something very similar to the Express/Strand 300 but with the newest generation of technology, the closest thing to it right now is probably the Strand Preset Palette. It comes in a 48/96 model. It looks very familiar in layout but it's got a ton more power under the hood than either of the old consoles.
If you are willing to go with a submaster only board then the Strand Basic Palette would be a great choice to consider.
ETC's ION would in my opinion be the top of the line board for you to consider but it sounds like you don't need a lot of it's features and some of these other boards may suit your needs at lower rates. GET A DEMO!!
I am not really supposed to say this, and I bet that most of the ETC folk on CB would deny it, but the Express line is at an end. Yes, the ones that are out there will be around and ETC will continue to support it, and yes, if you really wanted one, they would make one for you, or you can find a dealer who happens to have them in stock, but the days of Express are really coming to an end. Besides, the low end model ION is priced lower than a new Express.
Here is my shtik, and it applies to any technology purchases. You don't buy technology for your current needs, you buy for your future needs. Sure, you may only run 96 dimmers and nothing else right now, but in two years you may have 12 MLs that you need to run and doing that on an old console will just bite the big one.
The Strand Palette line is pretty comparable to an ION, like the Light Palette is comparable to EOS. The Palettes will come in at similar prices to different ION setups, so if you are familiar with the way ETC consoles work, it may be more beneficial to go the ETC route. While I happen to love the Strand 300/500 series, the fact that I won't be able to get support for a console that is less than 15 years old in 2010 is kind of a turn off, yet if you still have an ETC Microvision ETC will still support it.
I agree with Gaff that you should get a demo, but I really don't think that it is a wise investment to buy old technology. The thing about these new consoles is that you can configure them to run almost any way you want to. You could configure an ION to fell very similar to an Express, and then when you need the power, you reconfigure.
The big thing: don't be afraid of the new technology, especially in an educational setting, I guarantee the kids will figure it out before you finish chapter 1 of the manual. And also, New, does not mean more complex, just because you have more power and functionality does not change the way the basic functions work.
ice...one of the reason some of us old ETC folk don't want to give up the Express is because originally the SmartFade was marketed as its replacement especially in the world of HS theatre.
The SmartFade...quite frankly...sucks. Yes it has its uses, but its a step backwards IMHO from the Express.
I'd love to get my hands on an Ion. And if they haven't screwed up the syntax us ETC folk have come to know and love (like they did with the friggin Congo (yes I know all the back story and no I don't need to read it again)) then it will make its way into the market as a good Express(ion) replacement.
The SmartFade...quite frankly...sucks. Yes it has its uses, but its a step backwards IMHO from the Express.
I'd love to get my hands on an Ion. And if they haven't screwed up the syntax us ETC folk have come to know and love (like they did with the friggin Congo (yes I know all the back story and no I don't need to read it again)) then it will make its way into the market as a good Express(ion) replacement.
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Grog12 and Icewolf08 both have good points. What both ETC and Strand must overcome in the HS market is the "48 handles, 48 dimmers, 1 to 1 softpatch," philosophy of the English/Drama teacher. Or else most high schools will have this (no offense intended). Perhaps this is where Gafftaper's book can help. Writing cues or programming subs will not "ruin" an Express. Yes, the students will catch on immediately, but the poor English teacher must still be able to turn on the lights, without calling for a member of the AV Club.
<drifting off-topic> Remember the nerds and geeks who set up the projectors and ran the films for classes? They now make $25-30 per hour working in Convention Centers in Las Vegas. Still setting up flip charts, screens, and projectors. Good living if one can stand the tediousness and boredom.
<drifting off-topic> Remember the nerds and geeks who set up the projectors and ran the films for classes? They now make $25-30 per hour working in Convention Centers in Las Vegas. Still setting up flip charts, screens, and projectors. Good living if one can stand the tediousness and boredom.
I realize that people don't want to give up their Express consoles, my point was more that if you are in the market for a new console you shouldn't be looking to the Express(ion) line.
I actually had the chance to have a full ION demo this week. On the most basic level it programs like an Obsession, so if you know ETC syntax it shouldn't be too hard to pick up. On top of that you have many of the features that you find on EOS (only harder to get to for lack of buttons or built in touch screens). The biggest difference on the basic level is that ION is tracking native. There are many features that I am not sure that I would ever use, but by the same token there are many new ideas (for the ETC line and in general) that will blow you away. Plus, getting all that for the same price as an Express is pretty impressive in my book.
soundlight
Well-Known Member
The 7500 series is actually pretty darn powerful. The bottom row of faders can be subs with effects in 'em, you can set up a cue stack, and it's a rather powerful board. It's a dream board for busking concerts that don't have movers (just pars, lekos, and blinders) because you can have the top row be individual fixtures/softpatched sets of fixtures, and you can have the bottom board be full stage washes, a few various looks, and a bunch of different chases, and you can tap/sync to the music, which is a very nice feature. It's also just as easy to record subs on as an express...set faders, press record, press the bump button under the sub's fader. I think it might even be paged subs, too. You also have full softpatch out of an entire universe.
The board schools would end up with is an NSI 7000 series or a Lightronics board of some type.
Post-ION I agree with you. Pre-ION I didn't.
soundlight-Boards without 10-keys will always be inherently more time consuming than those with 10-keys.
That doesn't matter to the English teacher down the road who runs the drama club and just wants to turn 20 lights on and off without learning anything.
As for the Express I had an ETC sales rep tell me three years ago that the Express was soon to be replaced. Now they've sort of hit the market above and below it without replacing it exactly but it's days are SEVERELY numbered in production. Anyone with half a mind for tech can buy an Ion and anyone afraid of tech has the Smartfade. What else do they need?
That's actually kind of my point gaff. Before the Ion came out they were marketing the SmartFade as their replacement to the Express. Namely because the Express was marketed towards the English teacher down the road. For 3 years there was no palpitable replacement for it for people who wanted more than plug and play. Now we have Ion.
Why, you can get the same functionality from ION starting at a lower price.
soundlight
Well-Known Member
Making a compact board based off of the ION with a built in 24/48 fader system would probably sell to high schools. 512 outputs (one full universe), make some slightly smaller ML encoders and put them at the far right of the console (faders on left), and make it small enough to fit in to a cramped HS booth and easy enough for a teacher to turn on and bring up a fader. I'm sure that the idea of a modular console is daunting to some teachers, and 1000 output parameters seems like an overwhelming number.
Make it so that someone who really wanted to do lights could use the ML section, have keypad access to a full softpatch and effects section, but also make it easy enough for a teacher to come in and use a restore disk after the show to call up a default patch and sub set that is made during the install.
Basically, I think that no HS console should be without 24/48 operation if they have a 48 rack. With a full universe of outputs, you could fit 10 moving lights at 30 channels each if you wanted to. But 20 channels is more realistic for MLs that a HS would get. So, that leaves you with room for the 48 or 96 rack that they'd have (anyone with the cash to get a 144 or 192 rack would also have the sense to get an ION), as well as some LED pars, fog machines/hazers, and DMX toys as they come along.
So basically, re-make the express and base it off of the ION platform, include a 24/48 fader section that can all be swapped to subs, and put the ML section off to the left in order to reduce the console depth so it'll fit in tighter booths where it's sitting on the little shelf that was built behind the booth window for the old Lightronics, Leprecon, or NSI board that was in there first.
And if the ION is priced so low, this console should list for $2800 and go for $2200.
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