Conventional Fixtures C-clamp question

[gafftaper]

@thatactorguy, you have no idea how happy I (and others around here) are to hear you say that you already brought this up with the Executive Director. We get people coming through here all the time with a story similar to yours. The collection of legitimate experts around here tell them that they are doing something extremely dangerous, and the vast majority of the time they usually say, "we can't afford safety, so we're just going to ignore what you have to say and keep risking lives." And they never come back.

If you want to do it safely there is always a way. It may take time. It may force you to make hard choices that delay other cool things. But if you make it a priority, you can get it done. There's always a way. Best wishes, and let us know how we can help.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I don't know heights but if you hung a pipe grid a couple inches under the existing, no wiring changes perhaps. There might be other ways to minimize the electrical work in place - assuming it's "up to code".

 

[thatactorguy]

I don't know heights but if you hung a pipe grid a couple inches under the existing, no wiring changes perhaps. There might be other ways to minimize the electrical work in place - assuming it's "up to code".

It's a 16' ceiling, and 14' 8" to the top of the grid. Going on the hopes that the building will support 270' of 1.5" Schedule 40 running US-DS (9 pieces x 30' ea) I wonder if we could attach the electrics to the ceiling and get rid of the current grid completely. I'll grab a pic today or tomorrow. Thanks again for your help, everyone!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

If you have a ceiling just above grid, sure, move receptacles to it and hang pipe grid so 3-4 inches clear below ceiling. Simplest way to prevent rotation of pipes may be a couple of cross pipes and pipe grid clamps.

Not sure what yours are US-DS but generally, first/top layer of pipes is perpendicular to building framing. Do you know what the framing above ceiling is?

 

[thatactorguy]

If you have a ceiling just above grid, sure, move receptacles to it and hang pipe grid so 3-4 inches clear below ceiling. Simplest way to prevent rotation of pipes may be a couple of cross pipes and pipe grid clamps.

Not sure what yours are US-DS but generally, first/top layer of pipes is perpendicular to building framing. Do you know what the framing above ceiling is?

I sure don't, but will check that when I take the pics. Thank you, Bill

 

[gafftaper]

Gafftaper is correct. This “grid” is like a burning fuse: eventually- and you can’t even begin to guess when in this case- it’s going to fail and cause injury or death. If you think it’s expensive to build a proper grid, wait until you see the bill for the fines, clean-up, repairs AND the rebuild. Why put a hospital stay or a trip to the morgue on someone you probably know?

Shut it down, and shut it down now. You’re using swing set chain, and that is the deepest level of unsafe I’ve seen in a long time.

@thatactorguy this post sort of got lost in the discussion that followed and I want to highlight it to you. It's easy to read something on the internet and just disregard it as an anonymous post from an "expert" who in reality may be a 12 year old.

However @What Rigger? there is a serious pro. He isn't allowed to publicly talk about where he works or what he does. However I assure you that you know his venue. Even if you haven't seen his work in person, (which is very possible), I am confident that you are aware of it. People put their lives in his hands on a daily basis. So, go back and re-read his post and have it bounce around in your head a bit in the voice of James Earl Jones and not just some random internet guy.

 

[thatactorguy]

@thatactorguy this post sort of got lost in the discussion that followed and I want to highlight it to you. It's easy to read something on the internet and just disregard it as an anonymous post from an "expert" who in reality may be a 12 year old.

However @What Rigger? there is a serious pro. He isn't allowed to publicly talk about where he works or what he does. However I assure you that you know his venue. Even if you haven't seen his work in person, (which is very possible), I am confident that you are aware of it. People put their lives in his hands on a daily basis. So, go back and re-read his post and have it bounce around in your head a bit in the voice of James Earl Jones and not just some random internet guy.

Thank you, gafftaper. Seriously, I have read all of the posts, and am doing what I can to address it. My apologies for the delay in getting back with you and all- my computer is having major hard drive issues, so I don't turn it on nearly as much. I honestly didn't know the setup was as dangerous as all of you are saying. AS someone posted, perhaps it was fine when it was first built, but time and the use of *real* theatre fixtures has brought undue stress on this system; the idea of criminal liability hadn't, as a result, crossed my mind! As you know, I brought it to the attention of the ED, who has spoken with the board. I've priced pipe, and am ready to contribute significantly out of my own pocket if need be, just to get the project started.

 

[thatactorguy]

If you have a ceiling just above grid, sure, move receptacles to it and hang pipe grid so 3-4 inches clear below ceiling. Simplest way to prevent rotation of pipes may be a couple of cross pipes and pipe grid clamps.

Not sure what yours are US-DS but generally, first/top layer of pipes is perpendicular to building framing. Do you know what the framing above ceiling is?

The framing runs US-DS.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

The framing runs US-DS.

Two approaches. So if building a pipe grid, I would first hang the left to right pipes, with hangers at the intersections of the pipes and building framing. I'd probably try to do hangers no further apart than 8', but it does depend upon the framing. The type of the building framing and spacing would determine a lot: which battens are hung from which joists, and spacing based on trying to hang from panel points if these are truss joists. After the top layer is up, the up and down stage pipes clamp to the cross stage pipes.

Some would align one set of battens with the framing but this often affords little opportunity to spread the load out onto all of the framing, tending to concentrate it, an it also controls spacing, often forcing an asymmetrical plan.

If you could come up with a good DIY design - one that would pass muster safety wise and be functional. The material cost is probably around half of the $15,000-20,000 I noted above.

You are a little remote so I'm not sure who to point you to for the design oversight assistance it seems you need. I would not do it without eyes on - and I don't know who would but you might find someone. I can help somebody within an hour or two, but you're a long ways away. I'll try to reach out when I'm in Nashville, not yet scheduled. If flights and commitment work, I could maybe come by. (You are in Murray KY like your profile says, correct?)

 

[dvsDave]

I did a quick search for etcp certified riggers (theatrical) in KY, and there are a few (aside from the folks at ZFX). Perhaos they can get eyes on more quickly?
http://etcp.esta.org/findtechnicians/search.php

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I have a couple on that list I was going to recommend - But 4 hour seemed further than I would want to volunteer them for. Maybe I'm missing one but those all seem to be eastern KY. Nashville is much closer.

 

[thatactorguy]

Two approaches. So if building a pipe grid, I would first hang the left to right pipes, with hangers at the intersections of the pipes and building framing. I'd probably try to do hangers no further apart than 8', but it does depend upon the framing. The type of the building framing and spacing would determine a lot: which battens are hung from which joists, and spacing based on trying to hang from panel points if these are truss joists. After the top layer is up, the up and down stage pipes clamp to the cross stage pipes.

Some would align one set of battens with the framing but this often affords little opportunity to spread the load out onto all of the framing, tending to concentrate it, an it also controls spacing, often forcing an asymmetrical plan.

If you could come up with a good DIY design - one that would pass muster safety wise and be functional. The material cost is probably around half of the $15,000-20,000 I noted above.

You are a little remote so I'm not sure who to point you to for the design oversight assistance it seems you need. I would not do it without eyes on - and I don't know who would but you might find someone. I can help somebody within an hour or two, but you're a long ways away. I'll try to reach out when I'm in Nashville, not yet scheduled. If flights and commitment work, I could maybe come by. (You are in Murray KY like your profile says, correct?)

Yes sir, we are in Murray. The part of the building where the stage is has a flat roof, so I believe the ceiling joists are 2x12; I might be able to visually check that tomorrow. When I checked for direction the other night, I got on a ladder and did it by feel. Upon learning which direction the joists ran, and what you said about running perpendicular to the joists, I determined they needed to run L-R to spread the weight load. That would be at least six 45' pieces of 1.5". The way fixtures are hung now, they go on the US-DS part because the electrics run L-R, but I can obviously change that. I don't know that we would necessarily NEED to run pipe US-DS...

We do have some old 1.5" Black Iron at least 40') from when we did the Fantastiks several years ago, but the pipes have lived outside for a couple of years. If still structurally sound, might we use some of that pipe to save cost?

Also, in researching Schedule 40 steel & iron pipe, I found different wall thicknesses. What is the minimum thickness recommended? And if they attach to the ceiling joists, what type of hardware would make that happen? Pictures would be especially helpful

 

[thatactorguy]

I did a quick search for etcp certified riggers (theatrical) in KY, and there are a few (aside from the folks at ZFX). Perhaos they can get eyes on more quickly?
http://etcp.esta.org/findtechnicians/search.php

Very helpful! I checked, and Crittendon is the closest to us, but that person is with ETC Inc. Tennessee has several in Nashville (love that town!), as well as a couple in Jackson. Six of one, half a dozen of the other as far as distance. Jackson is a smidge closer.

 

[RonHebbard]

Yes sir, we are in Murray. The part of the building where the stage is has a flat roof, so I believe the ceiling joists are 2x12; I might be able to visually check that tomorrow. When I checked for direction the other night, I got on a ladder and did it by feel. Upon learning which direction the joists ran, and what you said about running perpendicular to the joists, I determined they needed to run L-R to spread the weight load. That would be at least six 45' pieces of 1.5". The way fixtures are hung now, they go on the US-DS part because the electrics run L-R, but I can obviously change that. I don't know that we would necessarily NEED to run pipe US-DS...

We do have some old 1.5" Black Iron at least 40') from when we did the Fantastiks several years ago, but the pipes have lived outside for a couple of years. If still structurally sound, might we use some of that pipe to save cost?

Also, in researching Schedule 40 steel & iron pipe, I found different wall thicknesses. What is the minimum thickness recommended? And if they attach to the ceiling joists, what type of hardware would make that happen? Pictures would be especially helpful

@thatactorguy Possibly this link to the Kee (Brand name) catalog may be useful to you.
https://www.simplifiedbuilding.com/...MIi5fU-J7f3gIVFJJbCh3aOw3zEAAYASAAEgLILvD_BwE
Kee is one of the old, established, brands stocked and sold around the world. Here in Canada we also have one of their competitors. Some of Kee's most popular styles and sizes of clamps are stocked and distributed by Home Depot.
As to pricing: You won't find them cheap but they are good value and, most importantly, RATED and with published safe working loads (SWL) and failure points based on destructive testing.
NOTE: It's important to keep in mind the quality and ratings of fastening hardware and NEVER forget a clamp is no stronger that the weakest link it's attached to. KEEP SAFETY FOREMOST IN MIND. And remember it's never more important than when rigging overhead. Have a browse through the Kee catalog and I'm sure you'll glean many ideas.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[dvsDave]

Hey guys,

Let's not put the cart before the horse. No need to recommend hardware until the entire situation is known.

Nothing is confirmed as far as to the buildings structural integrity (how much weight can it bear and from where.). This is where a structural engineer needs to come in to inspect and run the math First. Period. The End. There's no point to hardware until the building's limitations are known and attested.

@BillConnerFASTC please correct me if I'm using the wrong terms here.

 

[thatactorguy]

@thatactorguy Possibly this link to the Kee (Brand name) catalog may be useful to you.
https://www.simplifiedbuilding.com/pipe-fittings/kee-klamp?kw=kee clamps&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi5fU-J7f3gIVFJJbCh3aOw3zEAAYASAAEgLILvD_BwE
Kee is one of the old, established, brands stocked and sold around the world. Here in Canada we also have one of their competitors. Some of Kee's most popular styles and sizes of clamps are stocked and distributed by Home Depot.
As to pricing: You won't find them cheap but they are good value and, most importantly, RATED and with published safe working loads (SWL) and failure points based on destructive testing.
NOTE: It's important to keep in mind the quality and ratings of fastening hardware and NEVER forget a clamp is no stronger that the weakest link it's attached to. KEEP SAFETY FOREMOST IN MIND. And remember it's never more important than when rigging overhead. Have a browse through the Kee catalog and I'm sure you'll glean many ideas.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Lots of stuff in that catalog I recognize Just been looking for a couple of minutes before checking in here, but not seeing anything so far for hanging a LOT of weight from the ceiling. I'll keep looking!

 

[thatactorguy]

Hey guys,

Let's not put the cart before the horse. No need to recommend hardware until the entire situation is known.

Nothing is confirmed as far as to the buildings structural integrity (how much weight can it bear and from where.). This is where a structural engineer needs to come in to inspect and run the math First. Period. The End. There's no point to hardware until the building's limitations are known and attested.

@BillConnerFASTC please correct me if I'm using the wrong terms here.

Sorry!! I JUST saw this, after replying to RonHebbard's post about Kee. Definitely first things first! It's just exciting to get the wheels turning

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Yes, the building structutral framing is a part of the design work for the grid.

Just 2x12 supporting roof deck is a tougher one than some to design an attachment for.

 

[dvsDave]

Sorry!! I JUST saw this, after replying to RonHebbard's post about Kee. Definitely first things first! It's just exciting to get the wheels turning

I get it. It's definitely exciting, but as is often my role, I wanted to step in and make sure that the steps come in the right order. I don't want you to get your heart set on an idea of what it could be until the buildings limitations are known. Also don't want to have to disappoint your Executive Director with a vision that cannot be realized!

Another concern of mine is that I assume you have an already published schedule for performance's that were supposed to take place in that venue? I would find out if the Powers That Be have looked into an alternative venue until this space can be made safe.

 

[gafftaper]

My suggestion for a first step would be to get a rigger and a structural engineer in the building at the same time.