Cam-Lok Power Tie-In Lockout

[MikeJ]

Still does not change the original question. How does going from tails to panel mount cams change anything in regards to locking out the panel unless the panel mount cams have a interlock or some other way of ensuring they are not energized when they are not connected.

Safety and codes have already been addressed in above posts.
The OP wanted to leave tail tied in for convenience, my suggestion of panel mount cams, is IMO more convenient than tails.

This is not rocket surgery, panel mount cams or tails, you ensure that they are not energized by throwing the switch , and only allowing trained personnel to make and break connections.

 

[StradivariusBone]

Since the OP's question has been answered, I'm hoping this won't constitute a thread hijack, if it does please reprimand at will-

Is there any actual certification that is required before one can do a tie in? I know with electrical work in the building there's a point where we have to call the county electrician, pretty much anything where we're opening panels requires a licensed electrician. We don't have a company switch in our building and every group that needs that kind of power rents a generator. I've seen the tie in done and I understand the procedures and the risks, but I wouldn't volunteer to do one (Also, arc flash is freaking terrifying. I looked that up after reading a few posts up. Vaporized copper and plasma fire. That's a big pile of nope.).

So in the case of @MikeJ how does a venue trust their engineer to do one, when he clearly has no clue, but not the electricians on the road crew who do this day in and out? What's the standard involved? Do venues regularly employ licensed electricians to do this or is it a "Joe's seen like 100-150 tie in's. He's cool." mentality?

 

[JD]

Still does not change the original question. How does going from tails to panel mount cams change anything in regards to locking out the panel unless the panel mount cams have a interlock or some other way of ensuring they are not energized when they are not connected.

The easy answer is to have a real company switch installed. It is expensive, but a one-time expense.
http://www.lexproducts.com/content/upload_products/400_Amp_Company_Switch_Type_1_Indoor-b.pdf
"For enhanced safety, the access door to Cam-type or IEC 60309 pin & sleeve and lug connections is interlocked to the main breaker, which means the breaker can only be turned on when the access door is closed"

That being said, a cam connector is considered by the NEC to be a "tool-less lug", so the same restrictions apply to connecting a cam up as do to a bare end tail.

Is there any actual certification that is required before one can do a tie in? I know with electrical work in the building there's a point where we have to call the county electrician, pretty much anything where we're opening panels requires a licensed electrician.

Just saw your post come up. As I touched on above, the same qualifications apply to Cams and Tails and those would require someone with electrical certification.

You also touched on Arc Flash. It might be interesting to do a poll on this sometime to see how many of us have experienced this. My own was in 1974 with a panel that had a broken Bakelite backbone. Once experienced, (if you survive) you never look at power the same way.

 

[porkchop]

I'd say this thread has been successfully hijacked in several different directions.

Is there any actual certification that is required before one can do a tie in? I know with electrical work in the building there's a point where we have to call the county electrician, pretty much anything where we're opening panels requires a licensed electrician. We don't have a company switch in our building and every group that needs that kind of power rents a generator. I've seen the tie in done and I understand the procedures and the risks, but I wouldn't volunteer to do one (Also, arc flash is freaking terrifying. I looked that up after reading a few posts up. Vaporized copper and plasma fire. That's a big pile of nope.).

So in the case of @MikeJ how does a venue trust their engineer to do one, when he clearly has no clue, but not the electricians on the road crew who do this day in and out? What's the standard involved? Do venues regularly employ licensed electricians to do this or is it a "Joe's seen like 100-150 tie in's. He's cool." mentality?

There are a lot of buildings/unions that operate the Joe's cool mentality you mentioned. The closest thing to an actual certification is the ETCP Entertainment Electrician certification, but it's still optional. I would say the governing principle is OSHA's requirement that work on this kind of equipment should only done by qualified personnel. Who decides a person is qualified and what they use to decide that is up to the employer (at least until something goes wrong). In a standard/code summery from the OSHA site a qualified person is defined as:

One familiar with the construction and operation of the equipment and the hazards involved.

In at least a few building I've worked in the insurance company is really the one that says "Only people with specific training X can do tie-ins". Even then, I would expect that training to be a class or program developed for and by that individual employer that is unique to the risks and hazards present in their building. Because of this a qualified person in building A may not be a qualified person in building B if they haven't been through building B's training.

Sadly this is all the more-or-less best case practice that most of us have seen fall right apart when it's time to go and the right person isn't available.

SIDENOTE: The OSHA summery I quoted is Electrical Safety in the Workplace and it's actually a pretty good document on exactly what we've been talking about in this thread.

 

[MikeJ]

Since the OP's question has been answered, I'm hoping this won't constitute a thread hijack, if it does please reprimand at will-

Is there any actual certification that is required before one can do a tie in? I know with electrical work in the building there's a point where we have to call the county electrician, pretty much anything where we're opening panels requires a licensed electrician. We don't have a company switch in our building and every group that needs that kind of power rents a generator. I've seen the tie in done and I understand the procedures and the risks, but I wouldn't volunteer to do one (Also, arc flash is freaking terrifying. I looked that up after reading a few posts up. Vaporized copper and plasma fire. That's a big pile of nope.).

So in the case of @MikeJ how does a venue trust their engineer to do one, when he clearly has no clue, but not the electricians on the road crew who do this day in and out? What's the standard involved? Do venues regularly employ licensed electricians to do this or is it a "Joe's seen like 100-150 tie in's. He's cool." mentality?

A venue might have a licensed electrician on staff, but probably only one, if any. The rest of the staff may be trained properly to do the work as well, but even in the case of residential and commercial installation, the vast majority of electrical workers are NOT licensed. They are typically required to have ONE Licensed electrician to oversee and sign off on the work being done.

In my case, the only guy in engineering who was available had not been trained. The particular hotel only has the one ball room, and one disconnect, so tying in power is not a huge part of their job.
Also, It seems that when you call the front desk and ask for someone to come to the ball room, they often just call and say "there are people that need help with the lights or something in the ballroom." And then they show up with the remote for the house lights, and the guy that DOES know what to do, is off on another project.

When I train people to do any electrical work, first I need them to have a firm understanding of electricity in general, then they must be able to demonstrate in controlled conditions, how to do things properly, and explain WHY these are the correct procedures.

when asking the question, "why do you connect ground first?", "that's how I was taught." is not an acceptable answer.

 

[Lsly]

In Oregon we have a "Limited Stage Journeyman" Licence that allows for this type of bare wire tie-in. Also ETCP has been pushed in many areas in the Pac Nor West. I think leaving the tails in would fall under the temporary rules which basically say you must unplug or remove the conductors after 90 days or something. I say leave them in and lock out the switch when not in use. Remove them during long dark periods. Also there are now locks that can be placed over the ends of the CAMs. I have not looked at the Temp rules in 2014 NEC so I deffer to anyone that has and, Steve Terry.

LS

 

[StradivariusBone]

when asking the question, "why do you connect ground first?", "that's how I was taught." is not an acceptable answer.

Generally because I don't enjoy being a ground myself.

The qualified personnel idea is an interesting dilemma I'm learning. Our district recently discovered (after an injury I'm told) that OSHA mandates only qualified personnel operate AWP's and other lifts. We were required to take a course that trained us on buckets and scissors, but not AWP's despite that none of our PAC's have anything but AWP's. In fact, our little group of TD's had to set up the Genie so we could do the training because the guy teaching the class had never operated one before, and he was a former OSHA inspector. Not knocking him, because he had a wealth of knowledge, but he also seemed to grasp that we knew what we were doing and were not going to kill or maim anyone. The qualifications are in the eyes of the beholder it would seem.

I tend to err on the side of caution in these circumstances and defer to those who know better, unless it becomes apparent that they do not.

 

[RickR]

OSHA's definition of "qualified" is rather vague, and in my opinion the cause of considerable confusion.

One of the key concepts is that only qualified persons know whether they are qualified or not, because only they know the dangers. It's a bit like the the joke about buying big boats; if you have to ask then you can't.

 

[FMEng]

State laws often go much further than OSHA. I could be mistaken, but I think Washington L&I requires tie in to be done by a licensed electrician, and it has to be signed off by an electrical inspector.

 

[porkchop]

State laws often go much further than OSHA. I could be mistaken, but I think Washington L&I requires tie in to be done by a licensed electrician, and it has to be signed off by an electrical inspector.

I have never toured in Washington, but if that was the case, and it applied to touring shows, I imagine I would have heard about the state being a PITA to work in. So I'm a bit skeptical. A lot of productions skate by otherwise problematic clauses in the code because they are technically temporary installs. I'd be perfectly willing to believe the part about licensed electricians doing the tie-in. However, getting a state inspector to show up on a Sunday for a one-off that's going to be energized for a total of 12 hours is something that no related parties want to deal with.

 

[Scarrgo]

Off-Topic

I have had the joy of touring and run thru the great state of Washington(lots of great people), and my experience has been "depends on what city your in". One city the inspector had to come and check tie in and give a permit, the main guy had the day off so we got guy [HASHTAG]#2[/HASHTAG], and I think he wanted to show that he knows what he was doing, told use we could not use cams to do tie in and my feeder, 4 ø double jacket stamped "Entertainment Grade" was not acceptably to use, not sure what I was supposed to use than, I stood my ground, much to the horror of the local crew, 20 minutes later he gave up, and gave us our permit...becouse he had no answer on what we were supposed to do
Was I right fighting the city Inspector? no, But...still believe I was correct.

On topic

To the OP, check with the AHJ as others have said and see if he/she has an opinion, and get a lock so no one can turn on the power when no rack is attached...you never know when someone is going to stick there finger into the end of the cams...

Sean...

 

[FMEng]

A lot of things go on being done like we've always done it, even though it isn't legal. In Washington, some cities have jurisdiction over electrical inspections. In other places, such as unincorporated counties, State L&I has jurisdiction. The local inspectors may view temporary stage hookups differently than L&I does.

I'll give you an example how things are changing. I know for a fact that Washington L&I has targeted enforcement for the generator maintenance companies. It used to be that a diesel mechanic would connect a load bank for testing an installed generator, and then re-connect the building load when finished. That is no longer allowed. Now it takes the mechanic, an electrician and a state inspector to put a generator on a load bank. It makes generator maintenance extremely expensive.

 

[JD]

Things are so formal these days!
I remember doing a theater above Allentown PA back in 1974. The tie-in was a bare live chunk of aluminum triplex (ok, quad-plex if it's a word) sticking out of the floor backstage. Someone had stuck rubber gloves over the hots for "safety." Ground you ask? Ha!
I don't miss those days a bit. Was glad when "Twecos" started showing up, and then later when those "new fangled" Cam-Loks came to town. Never enjoyed the concept that part of the lighting business involved risking one's life for no good reason.

 

[MikeJ]

No offence intended here, and if it makes you feel safer, go ahead, but there is no way I would INVITE inspectors from the government, who often have no clue what they are doing, much less know anything about entertainment, and who often site inappropriate or incorrect codes, into my spaces. The exception being, if some is doing things that I know to be unsafe, and refuse to correct them; sometimes a higher power can help.

I will call the health department on dodgy catering though.

 

[wolfman005]

Another hijack here, what are the requirements for attaching cams to existing installed cams? When I was working in a production warehouse this summer I was taught how to do this, but if I were at a show I would be hesitant just because who knows what a AHJ, Local hand, or <insert other figure of authority here> would feel about a 18 year old doing something like this. Not to mention I wouldn't want the liability if I did something wrong...although going from ground to neutral to hots when connecting and hots to neutral to ground isn't something easily messed up IMO.

 

[JD]

Another hijack here, what are the requirements for attaching cams to existing installed cams? When I was working in a production warehouse this summer I was taught how to do this, but if I were at a show I would be hesitant just because who knows what a AHJ, Local hand, or <insert other figure of authority here> would feel about a 18 year old doing something like this. Not to mention I wouldn't want the liability if I did something wrong...although going from ground to neutral to hots when connecting and hots to neutral to ground isn't something easily messed up IMO.

Despite the fact that the mechanics of it are pretty much the same as plugging in a twist-lock, the Cam is considered a "tool-less lug", so the same rules apply as would be for connecting bare ends. I "think" the thought behind this is that the ramifications of reversing one or two are so great, and the potential ramifications for connection while under load or short are so great. Retired now, but I can't remember a venue that actually enforced this although I am sure some do. Also, downstream cams are rarely looked at even though the same rules apply to any situation where single conductors are being connected. Most systems now reverse the Male/Female on the ground and neutral, so it would be hard to mess things up, but it is not universal.

 

[Scarrgo]

@MikeJ,
No offense taken, not all states seem to follow the same rules on how things are done, Chicago has had a couple bad happenings, so those folks see things a bit different than say Detroit, New Haven or Wherever.

As FMEng said, in Washington(State), there are some crazy rules on whom can do what and whom has to OK anything that anywhere else, folks can seem to care less, do we normally invite them in and ask for inspection and permits for a simple show tie in? nope, its just THEIR rules, and you have to follow them or they could shut you down.

And its not that we dont ever want inspections, its just that some people may take liberties for the bottom line or dont know how to really do things, and folks get hurt, I can replace EVERYTHING in my building, I CAN NOT replace you, the last thing any of us want is to hurt someone, but it happens, and a good deal of the time, a simple lesson or a $3 doohickey is all it takes to prevent something bad.

Sorry for the sappiness, but its the way I feel, I am NOT perfect, I have made too many mistakes and taken too many shortcuts in the past to get the show done...I have been lucky that no one has gotten hurt, as I have gotten older and some what wiser, and I do try my best to show the kids I work with the right way to do things...same may not agree, but thats a different topic all together.

Sean...

 

[porkchop]

Another hijack here, what are the requirements for attaching cams to existing installed cams? When I was working in a production warehouse this summer I was taught how to do this, but if I were at a show I would be hesitant just because who knows what a AHJ, Local hand, or <insert other figure of authority here> would feel about a 18 year old doing something like this. Not to mention I wouldn't want the liability if I did something wrong...although going from ground to neutral to hots when connecting and hots to neutral to ground isn't something easily messed up IMO.

You'd be surprised the power of under trained people when given the huge variation in switch gear from venue to venue. That being said, a good foundation in best practices and some common sense can make a really good electrician at any age.

As far as feeder goes, as a fairly general practice when you're running feeder the person that's "responsible" for the gear makes the connections. It could be the ME for the project, the vendor that's supplying the gear for a larger project, or the touring guy that's working with the locals as they lay out the feeder. In my experience with different locals and unions it's a bit hit or miss if the guys laying out the feeder would make intermittent connections (the joint between two 100' sections for a 200' run for example), but I would never expect, or really want, a local to tie the cams into my rack. With a company switch that has cams I'd expect the building guy responsible for energizing the disconnect to make the connections. If there are tails tied into the disconnect it's 50/50 if the guy responsible for the tie-in or the gear makes connection.

 

[MikeJ]

Another hijack here, what are the requirements for attaching cams to existing installed cams? When I was working in a production warehouse this summer I was taught how to do this, but if I were at a show I would be hesitant just because who knows what a AHJ, Local hand, or <insert other figure of authority here> would feel about a 18 year old doing something like this. Not to mention I wouldn't want the liability if I did something wrong...although going from ground to neutral to hots when connecting and hots to neutral to ground isn't something easily messed up IMO.

Typically, any cams up until you actually plug into the disconnect, can be done by almost anyone usually by the tour/production company, or stagehands under direction of the company or tour. When you actually hook up to power, most venues have a house guy who is the only person allowed to make/break connections and throw the switch. In the case of the Convention center in St. Louis, you will get a guy from the company that has the electrical contract with the building, Edlen I believe, and that guy just might hook up you hots before the ground and neutral, and then flip a switch that has a hot leg and ground reversed. So, meter your power before turning on. I even got a set of brand new from the factory, camlock five wire, from a rental company, and they had the red and green cam swapped on one end. So always meter your power, even if you did not change anything from one day to another, you don't know is someone else did, and did not hook it back up right.

A lot of place will let you hookup cams and turn on and off the company switch, once they get to know you and are confident in your abilities, others have more strict protocol.

Oh, always be safe, be courteous, and humble, but don't worry about what a local hand thinks. I had a local hand this past summer who thought he was being helpful by unplugging cables he thought we were finished with. I turned the corner and saw him squatting, and as he leaned on the power distro to stand up, he said "ouch, that's got some bit to it!" At his feet were the neutral and ground camlocks that he had just unplugged, from the PD that was powering the motor controllers while motors were moving.

There are a few touring guy on here who started their careers in St. Louis, and I have a few friends from around the area. What places have you been working?, I'll bet you have run into a bunch of the same people.