Can A Fire Marshal Ban Haze???

Very true, the rules on pyro have changed quite a bit since 9/11. Pyro things that were gray areas in the past are now possibly federal crimes. Never do any pyro without discussing what you want to do with your fire marshal and making sure you have a properly licensed technician to operate it.

I agree 100%. Call your local pyro/fireworks company. They're well versed on the laws and can assist with permit acquisition. If you need them to provide a tech and insurance, it might cost a bit but will keep you legal. If you're with a school, you might be able to provide your own insurance and save a few bucks if they're just providing a tech and helping with the permit.
 
We have always had a good working relationship with our inspectors, but we invite them and educate them on some of these things. If it is possible, try to invite them in on a time that is most convenient for them, have some coffee or something ready, and show them what a hazer is, what goes in it, what it does, what the haze looks like, how you want to use it, etc. When we first opened, there was a large learning curve for the local fire people. They had never dealt with something like a theater with rigging and such. We did have our legal paperwork backups for what we would normally want to do, but never had to get them out. In a public safety training I was in recently, they said you have to be good with 'street diplomacy' when dealing with things like this. Test the waters, but don't rock the boat too much.
 
We have a similar issue, except it involves the local volunteer fire chief (translation: his training involved a few months of school and none in inspections etc.) and he will randomly throw out things that we aren't allowed to do for no real reason, and even though he has no real authority. The biggest issue we had was after a renovation, air handlers were installed with smoke sensors instead of just heat sensors like the rest of the room has (all doors have a smoke sensor immediately outside the door) so we had to disable them during shows that use fog. He came in and tried to stop us but the fire codes were on our side he just didn't know them!

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We have a similar issue, except it involves the local volunteer fire chief (translation: his training involved a few months of school and none in inspections etc.) and he will randomly throw out things that we aren't allowed to do for no real reason, and even though he has no real authority. The biggest issue we had was after a renovation, air handlers were installed with smoke sensors instead of just heat sensors like the rest of the room has (all doors have a smoke sensor immediately outside the door) so we had to disable them during shows that use fog. He came in and tried to stop us but the fire codes were on our side he just didn't know them!

Really? You have a code which allows you to disable air handler smoke detectors? Does it require you to set a firewatch? That's what our AHJ does, but it's a judgement call for them and I would really doubt that the code actually allows you to disable smoke detectors when you have the public in your building without taking some kind of compensatory measures.
 
I can now definitively answer the question as "YES." We just did a show in a gymnasium that we've worked dozens of times in the past (with haze) where the fire marshall said no "smoke." You would think a fire marshall of all people would understand the difference between haze and smoke, but not even a kindergarten level explanation could make him change his mind. The "club atmosphere" that we were there to create completely got destroyed minutes before the event was to start.
 
You would think a fire marshall of all people would understand the difference between haze and smoke, but not even a kindergarten level explanation could make him change his mind. The "club atmosphere" that we were there to create completely got destroyed minutes before the event was to start.

They receive no training in the atmospheric effects we use in our industry, so I would never expect an AHJ to know the difference, no matter how obvious it appears to us.

Often times it not the effect they are ruling against, it is the environment it creates (obstruction of a clear view of exits and obstacles, concerns with venue staff being able to see the crowd for crowd control and liquor control compliance, etc.). Often a poorly staffed fire department or a department that relies on all volunteers will be much more conservative in what they allow because the resources they have to respond to a situation are much more limited compared to a larger department. At that point, they are just doing their job the best they can with the resources they have at their disposal.

And, for the people who say that "fire code is on their side", you are forgetting the most important code on the books; the AHJ has the FINAL say so in all matters. The written code is always up to their interpretation as they apply it in any given situation. Taking proactive steps to build a relationship with them, educate them, and notify them well in advance are your best tools to help your cause. But, their interpretation (no matter how unfounded it may appear to us) is final and not negotiable.

~Dave
 
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They receive no training in the atmospheric effects we use in our industry, so I would never expect an AHJ to know the difference, no matter how obvious it appears to us.

Often times it not the effect they are ruling against, it is the environment it creates (obstruction of a clear view of exits and obstacles, concerns with venue staff being able to see the crowd for crowd control and liquor control compliance, etc.). Often time a poorly staffed fire department or a department that relies on all volunteers will be much more conservative in what they allow because the resources they have to respond to a situation are much more limited compared to a larger department. At that point, they are just doing their jobthe best they can with the resources they have at their disposal.

I don't expect any fire official (even the top dog fire marshall) to know about industry specific effects, any more than I would expect them to know how to change a lamp in a Source 4. But a fireman should at least know that smoke=fire. Does he think that his breath on a cold day is smoke as well? Better call in the ladder truck! Also, to completely disregard any opportunity to learn something new...

Also, regarding a "poorly staffed fire department," this was at a major university with hundreds of fire/police on duty at all times.
 
I can now definitively answer the question as "YES." We just did a show in a gymnasium that we've worked dozens of times in the past (with haze) where the fire marshall said no "smoke." You would think a fire marshall of all people would understand the difference between haze and smoke, but not even a kindergarten level explanation could make him change his mind. The "club atmosphere" that we were there to create completely got destroyed minutes before the event was to start.

Bishop, I'm curious, when he told you this, did you just accept it right off the bat, or did you go tell the producer of the event and see if they might have a better time reasoning with the fire marshal?

(If I was doing a rave in a gym, I'd be a touch upset too, if the AHJ told me no haze right before doors)
 
Bishop, I'm curious, when he told you this, did you just accept it right off the bat, or did you go tell the producer of the event and see if they might have a better time reasoning with the fire marshal?

(If I was doing a rave in a gym, I'd be a touch upset too, if the AHJ told me no haze right before doors)

I never spoke to the guy myself. The PM was the first to discuss it with him, followed by the dean (whose event it was) as well as a couple of other high ranking school faculty members. Eventually he said something about not being able to see the exits (which are well marked with code-meeting signs) to which we suggested bringing in more lighting to illuminate the doors. It was all about ego and falice swinging.
 
The real question would be: How can the entertainment industry educate the AHJ professionals across the country regarding atmospheric effects issues.
 
I don't expect any fire official (even the top dog fire marshall) to know about industry specific effects, any more than I would expect them to know how to change a lamp in a Source 4. But a fireman should at least know that smoke=fire. Does he think that his breath on a cold day is smoke as well? Better call in the ladder truck! Also, to completely disregard any opportunity to learn something new...

Also, regarding a "poorly staffed fire department," this was at a major university with hundreds of fire/police on duty at all times.

Learm something new? Why? They dont have to. There job is to keep the event safe. If they feel haze, smoke, pyro whatever poses a risk to anyone in the building then guess what? You loose. You cannot win fighting the FD. You will loose and they can shut you down.
Ive been in places where haze/smoke fills an area and breaks the "beam" of the smoke alarm and sets it off. A solution to this was to disable the fire alarm and pay to have a firefighter on fire watch. Ill bet that would do it.
Also HUNDREDS of police and firefighters? I doubt that. Where is it? Ill bet at most there are like 10 firefighters and 10 cops on duty at any given time.
Chris
 
Learm something new? Why? They dont have to. There job is to keep the event safe. If they feel haze, smoke, pyro whatever poses a risk to anyone in the building then guess what? You loose. You cannot win fighting the FD. You will loose and they can shut you down.
Ive been in places where haze/smoke fills an area and breaks the "beam" of the smoke alarm and sets it off. A solution to this was to disable the fire alarm and pay to have a firefighter on fire watch. Ill bet that would do it.
Also HUNDREDS of police and firefighters? I doubt that. Where is it? Ill bet at most there are like 10 firefighters and 10 cops on duty at any given time.
Chris

They probably are also in a city, which has dozens of fire stations in it, each with multiple trucks worth of guys on duty as well, and realistically probably thousands of cops on duty at any given moment.
 
They probably are also in a city, which has dozens of fire stations in it, each with multiple trucks worth of guys on duty as well, and realistically probably thousands of cops on duty at any given moment.

Its just not possible that a University would have HUNDREDS of firefighters and cops on duty. 4 men per truck/engine so that would mean that in his immediate area at the University there are a minimum of 25 trucks/engines. Thats just to make 100. Not even HUNDREDS. New York City only has 11,000 firefighters and they are understaffed. Second only to Tokyo. This is a sore spot for me. These guys are doing there jobs. Ultimately they will win and shut you down. It also helps to not have an attitude with them when speaking to them. Goes a long way!
 
WOW this got off topic I think. Im done...


Seems to still be on topic to me. Ultimately it always comes down to as simple as YES they can always shut you down, sometimes they are right, sometimes we are right, but you still have to accept it. I think that sure maybe not all of them understand what fog or haze is exactly, but some do, and even the ones that don't ultimately have to make a life safety decision as to whether or not it's going to (in their opinion) hinder people getting out of a building if there is a fire.
 
Seems to still be on topic to me. Ultimately it always comes down to as simple as YES they can always shut you down, sometimes they are right, sometimes we are right, but you still have to accept it. I think that sure maybe not all of them understand what fog or haze is exactly, but some do, and even the ones that don't ultimately have to make a life safety decision as to whether or not it's going to (in their opinion) hinder people getting out of a building if there is a fire.

Well said. Thanks
 
Another factor is how the matter was presented to AHJ. If it was a simple "Can we do use haze or fog?", I could where they could jump to conclusions on what that means and what that effect looks like.

A lot of people hear the words "fog machine" and think of Halloween-style effects that are a heavy mass of fog, not so bad in someone's yard but in the confined space of a haunted house, fog effects overused can present actual life safety hazards.

On the other hand, if the question was presented as "We want to put a light/medium haze in the air, which would not be enough to interfere with illuminated exit signs but just enough to illuminate beams of light traveling through the air. Is that okay?" then I would expect AHJ to be on a page closer to the page I am on.

Best yet is a demonstration of the effect that would let AHJ see exactly what they're signing off on, an effect most AHJ's have not explicitly had demonstrated and explained to them.

It seems like an argument of petty semantics to some, but not to the person who's stamping their name and reputation on that your effects will go off without a hitch. Not only that but people like to lie and/or not tell the full truth to AHJ, so anyone in that position has to also take into account the possibility that anytime they're making a decision, they could be making it on false or incomplete information. The more transparent and explicit you can be about what it is you're asking them permission for, the better.

An argument of semantics it may be, but we're talking about the difference between the person representing AHJ feeling completely comfortable with what they're about to sign off on or feeling uneasy that what they're thinking about giving a green light could blow up in their faces (figuratively AND literally -- these are the same people whose duty it is to run into the fire if the effect doesn't go as planned).

A lot of people misunderstand just how complex it is for AHJ to stamp a seal of approval on someone else's work, even when the risks seem minimal. This is a tad hyperbolic to the fog/haze topic, but imagine if you're the fire marshal who signs off on something that turns into the next Station nightclub fire. Expect your career to be ruined. On top of that, you have to live with the someone's death on your conscience. Could be a total stranger, or it could be your three closest friends who were first responders.

There are actually some AHJ's who are on power trips, but I'll bet most of them who get accused of phallus-waving go to sleep haunted by calls they've responded to in the past and are at least a little terrified of the calls they may someday be on. With the kinds of things that firefighters see every day, don't be surprised if they're hesitant to give you permission to do something in a venue that at the spark of a match could be the largest fire any of them will ever respond to.
 
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I work with my AHJ when it comes to effects. I have asked about smoking onstage, he had no problem. We use fog,haze and other similar effects with no problem. Pyro requires permitting, local shooter and demos. If it is deemed safe then it is allowed, if it questionable, it is scrapped. Some effects require a fire watch, we don't disable duct detectors, we disable alerting capabilities. It alerts the fire panel and we handle accordingly. It has been an continuing education by us and the FMs to get on the same page. The FM also knows we will insist on certain parameters being met, whether it is effects or fire lanes. We play by the rules set by him and it makes him more likely to work with us if we need to do something out of the ordinary.
On the other hand, I work in another city that they say no smoke, open flame, pyro, haze, nothing. No questions, no negotiations. We know that so we don't even try.
 
Wow, lots of assumptions going on about what I posted. Please keep in mind that I am not a high schooler looking to pick a fight with an officer of the community. Everyone who spoke to the fire marshall were adults who were very respectful of the official and his duties. As I mentioned, the production manager, university dean, building supervisor, and the second in command of student activities (who is very knowledgable in theatrical lighting/sound) were the ones to discuss this with him. We all understood where he was coming from, but the respect was not reciprocated. It was simply a matter of him having made a decision and not wanting to seem weak by changing his mind. It was ego and ignorance, along with fear of losing his job (I understand he's a new fire marshall, which would explain why we've never had any issues before) that compelled the decision, not rational thought or awareness of what we were trying to explain. I'm sorry if this strikes accord with you personally, but I doubt that it should as you seem like someone willing to learn new things and have discussions with people rather than merely being a bully. Trust me, that's what this was.

And as far as your doubt as to hundreds of public service officials... As well as being the largest university in the state, it is located in one of the largest cities in the state and is supported by municipal officials as well as university. Inside the room during the main part of the event (the only part that needed haze) I counted 4 EMS and 6 police officers. That was what I saw from my limited visibility position at front of house. It is easy to say that there are well over 100 public safety officials within 15 minutes of any specific point on campus at any time, especially during events. Maybe not 600 or 800, but even 200 would not be out of the question.

After all that, I'm really not sure why I'm having to refute every point I'm trying to make to you. I was merely telling my count of what happened because it relates to this thread. You can take the facts or not, really doesn't matter to me.
 
I've never heard of a Fire Marshal reacting like that to a Haze machine. Perhaps, if you get grief again, you could suggest posting a notice telling the audience that a hazer, or as he put it "smoke like effect" will be used. If not a sign, perhaps you could make an audio announcement before the show?

Honestly though, never argue with the Fire Marshal. They'll just pull the authority card at the end of the day and either say "it is what it is" or they'll shut you down.
 

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