Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric raceway like this costs?

BGW

Active Member
Hello there everyone!

One of my school's electric raceways has been severely damaged by an inexperienced student. It appears that they were raising the pipe and didn't check for obstructions, because there is a massive (~8" deep) dent near one of the ends. I haven't seen it happen myself, but some people have claimed that it arcs intermittantly. I've shut off all the breakers for the circuits near the end, but I can't take the whole thing out at the moment to do electrical testing. As soon as the demand is gone, I'll bring it down and take the cover off to see how bad it really is. In the meantime, I'd like to hear your opinions.

I think I may be able to fix it by straightening out the sheet metal and adding some reinforcement. Of course I'd check all circuits (50-something) to make sure there are no opens or shorts.

I was also looking into a new one, but I can't find any reference to their cost so that I can write up an estimate for the district. I was specifically looking at Leviton's offerings. The PDFs they have on their website are great- the connector strips look to be really well made and totally customizable. For reference, we'd be ordering one somewhere between 40 and 50 feet long with around 50 circuits. Do any of you fine knowledgeable people have an idea of what a new one would cost? I know they can't be cheap. Here's a link: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=26382&minisite=10023

TIA,
Peter
Boulder High School
 
Last edited:
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

Hello there everyone!

One of my school's electric fly rails has been severely damaged by an inexperienced student. It appears that they were raising the rail and didn't check for obstructions, because there is a massive (~8" deep) dent near one of the ends. I haven't seen it happen myself, but some people have claimed that it arcs intermittantly. I've shut off all the breakers for the circuits near the end, but I can't take the whole thing out at the moment to do electrical testing. As soon as the demand is gone, I'll bring it down and take the cover off to see how bad it really is. In the meantime, I'd like to hear your opinions.

I think I may be able to fix it by straightening out the sheet metal and adding some reinforcement. Of course I'd check all circuits (50-something) to make sure there are no opens or shorts.

I was also looking into a new one, but I can't find any reference to their cost so that I can write up an estimate for the district. I was specifically looking at Leviton's offerings. The PDFs they have on their website are great- the connector strips look to be really well made and totally customizable. For reference, we'd be ordering one somewhere between 40 and 50 feet long with around 50 circuits. Do any of you fine knowledgeable people have an idea of what a new one would cost? I know they can't be cheap. Here's a link: Connector Strips > Power Distribution > Theatrical Equipment > Commercial Lighting > All Products from Leviton Electrical and Electronic Products

TIA,
Peter
Boulder High School

I would have to guess that buying a whole new one is much more expensive than simply repairing the one you have. I cant imagine that its so badly broken that it cant be fixed. The only broken bit is the plug strip thing, right? If the rigging parts are damaged that might be a whole different question, but if its just the plug strip, you really ought to be able to bend back the piece in question and possibly put in a new faceplate, and have an electrical contractor re-terminate the damaged plugs.
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

Hi Peter,

Raceways like the one you reference are made by many lighting manufacturers. Because of the vast number of options and ways they can be installed, each one is custom made. Your best bet would be to have a lighting dealer come to the school, have them inspect the damage, and give you a quote for repair or replacement.

You've done the right thing by turning off the breakers- before those circuits are used again they must be inspected for electrical safety. If you don't feel comfortable doing this, perhaps the maintenance department of your school or district could send someone to help. In any case, don't work alone- always have a person to help you when working with electricity.

-Todd
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

Thanks guys, that's what I figured. I think you understood, but I was talking about buying a new connector strip alone- no rigging or anything else. I was thinking it'd be a few thousand at least. I was only thinking of getting a new one because the existing one is very bent and the sockets are almost entirely worn out (not to mention it being electrically suspicious- even before getting bent).

I think you're definately right, though. Even buying 50 new sockets and several spools of wire, I think we'll be ahead in everything except time. It'll take a loooong time to rewire that thing. Where would we find that crazy 10/30 cabling? The flex cables are 40 years old, and we're pretty sure there are a few opens in them. This fly rail has 3(!) cables feeding it. Thankfully the other 3 only have 1 apiece.
 
Last edited:
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

Thanks guys, that's what I figured. I think you understood, but I was talking about buying a new connector strip alone- no rigging or anything else. I was thinking it'd be a few thousand at least. I was only thinking of getting a new one because the existing one is very bent and the sockets are almost entirely worn out (not to mention it being electrically suspicious- even before getting bent).

I think you're definately right, though. Even buying 50 new sockets and several spools of wire, I think we'll be ahead in everything except time. It'll take a loooong time to rewire that thing. Where would we find that crazy 10/30 cabling? The flex cables are 40 years old, and we're pretty sure there are a few opens in them. This fly rail has 3(!) cables feeding it. Thankfully the other 3 only have 1 apice.

Im sure it would not be hard to have whoever your local version of Mpowers is put in new cable management systems, and replace the 10/30 with something else. If I had to choose and was gonna spend a lot of money on it, I would rather drop the 50 circuit raceway all together and replace it with 10x 6-chan drop boxes, and just run saco to them. I know some people hate drop boxes, but I find them so much more convenient when you have 6 pipe ends on either side, and then some center clusters of whatever type, instead of running single cables all over you just put a box or breakout where you need it. Also if you perhaps wanted 6 lights on each of 10 battens you have that option now. Only real issue IMO is the Saco picks that you then need.
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

All of this work should be done by an electrical contractor. Its not as easy as just ordering a raceway and running some cable. You need a full rigging inspection done, it is possible something got stressed when the collision occurred. Beyond that, someone onesite who is qualified can look and see if you need to replace the whole thing.
 
In answer to the original question of what it would cost to replace, there is no good way for us to estimate that for you. Since raceways tend to be custom built for each install, it really is a POR item.
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

Even buying 50 new sockets and several spools of wire, I think we'll be ahead in everything except time.

Peter,

There's a big difference between inspecting the raceway to make sure it is safe and rewiring it (taking on a manufacturing role). By rewiring the raceway, you're going to take on a legal liability that you really don't want as well as voiding any certification the raceway already has.

Also, the wiring inside the raceway is not ordinary building wire that you can get at the local big box store. It needs to be the appropriate size and type of high-temp wire and that costs several times what ordinary THHN does.

A lighting dealer will be able to give your school an accurate and complete cost for repair or replacement.

-Todd
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

Hello there everyone!

One of my school's electric fly rails has been severely damaged by an inexperienced student. It appears that they were raising the rail and didn't check for obstructions, because there is a massive (~8" deep) dent near one of the ends. I haven't seen it happen myself, but some people have claimed that it arcs intermittantly. I've shut off all the breakers for the circuits near the end, but I can't take the whole thing out at the moment to do electrical testing. As soon as the demand is gone, I'll bring it down and take the cover off to see how bad it really is. In the meantime, I'd like to hear your opinions.

You shouldn't be messing with this, even if you can fix it. Since you're a student, you should contact the school's head custodian. Show him or her what happened and ask if the school district has a staff electrician who can open up the unit to be sure it's safe. Not only will you be notifying the proper people who can resolve the problem safely, you'll look good in their eyes for reporting the problem and not attempting a repair you're not authorized to do.

Don't try to fix it yourself, no matter how tempting it is.
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

@Shiben I agree, that'd be really nice and much more functional. However, current budgeting situations and priority levels place that in the "not happening for a looong time" category. Our theater department receives no funding at all from the district- it's completely self-sustaining.

@Footer It's hard to describe, but the manner of the accident was such that the raceway was the only thing being held back- the rigging was under no great stress. However, I totally agree with you that we need to have all of the rigging systems inspected. The winches are 1937 originals and the cabling is from the '70s. I'm sure it could all stand to be replaced.

@icewolf08 I understand now. It was a stupid question. I knew they were entirely custom, but I thought there might have been a loose range of prices for them.

@tdrga Great point. I'm confident in my work and I'm well on my way to being a commercial electrician, but that's something I'd never want to blow back on me. When someone finally comes through and writes the school/theater up for all the codes they're in violation of, I don't want my name attached to anything, whether or not it's an infringement. And yes, I know the difference between wire types and I'm well aware of the special types required. How could I pass the exams if I didn't? :)

@DrPinto Just like above, it's a great point. But I guess I failed to mention that I'm not doing this behind anyone's back. The related school staff knows exactly what's going on and I have informed them of everything.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I should explain the situation a little more clearly. The district is so short on funds that they've had to cut maintenance staff yet again. Apparently there are less than 10 workers for the entire district- which is quite large (64 schools). The theater staff at my school are worried that the overtaxed maintenance workers will perform sub-par repairs (which they are known for) or condemn parts of the infrastructure simply because they don't have the time to evaluate a problem.

Everyone's advice is very sound. I think the best I can do is write up a very detailed report of what exactly the problem is, where it is, and anything else that's relevant and will help them fix it. I think they'll be more likely to address the issues properly if the problems are laid out for them clearcut. This goes for everything, not just the fly rails. Most of the issues in the theater are electrical.

I've found a few really dangerous circuits in the theater (shattered/burned sockets, exposed live wires, etc.) which I've shut down and tagged, so I guess we can just sit back and wait for them to look into our reports. I'll take some pictures so you guys can see what we're dealing with.


Again, I very much appreciate everyone's insight. This forum is a real blessing to have around.

Thanks to all,
Peter
 
Last edited:
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

...One of my school's electric fly rails has been severely damaged ...
Terminology correction. That which you are describing is known as a raceway or connector strip. A "fly rail" is where a counterweight fly system's rope locks are located, aka lockrail. Or, in a hemp house, a pin rail, because it contains belaying pin s.

Something in me wants to say, "budget at $50 a running foot," but that may be an old price and obviously will change depending on quantity and spacing of outlets, connector type, attachment hardware, etc. Besides the dimmer manufacturers, Union Connector and SSRC also manufacture connector strips.
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

Terminology correction. That which you are describing is known as a raceway or connector strip. A "fly rail" is where a counterweight fly system's rope locks are located, aka lockrail. Or, in a hemp house, a pin rail, because it contains belaying pin s.

Something in me wants to say, "budget at $50 a running foot," but that may be an old price and obviously will change depending on quantity and spacing of outlets, connector type, attachment hardware, etc. Besides the dimmer manufacturers, Union Connector and SSRC also manufacture connector strips.

Oh thank you! I try to use the correct terminology, but I'm unfamiliar with many of the proper terms. I was mostly just recruited to fix the various issues we have- it's hard to keep up with all of the correct names. Could they be called electric battens (the whole assembly- pipe, rigging, etc)?

* edit Hmm...wouldn't that make an electric fly rail a motorized rigging system?
 
Last edited:
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric fly rail like this cos

Oh thank you! I try to use the correct terminology, but I'm unfamiliar with many of the proper terms. I was mostly just recruited to fix the various issues we have- it's hard to keep up with all of the correct names. Could they be called electric battens (the whole assembly- pipe, rigging, etc)?

* edit Hmm...wouldn't that make an electric fly rail a motorized rigging system?

LX1, LX2, etc. or usually Electrics. I would avoid calling them electric battens as, as you pointed out, is slightly confusing.

Just a note, any of the dotted yellow underlined words link to entries in the Wiki with definitions (and sometimes pictures) of industry terms.
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric raceway like this cost

Your Source Four fixtures are old -- they're from back when they were only making them in the 575w flavor (which means they were purchased somewhere before 2000). Judging from the lack of lamp caps, I'm going to guess that the caps progressively went bad over time which is not unusual because the sockets only last so long before they need some TLC.

If that is in fact the problem with them, you can buy some new 750w caps from your local dealer and grind the nubs off so that they fit onto your existing, your fixtures should at least get light coming out of the front of them. Can't speak to whether or not there are other problems with those fixtures, but I can't imagine there's anything wrong with them that a solid maintenance cycle can't fix.
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric raceway like this cost

Wow. Just wow. There's so many scary things in your theater, yet I wish that was my auditorium! You have some great positions to hang instruments, great looking fly system, and a ton of instruments. However, this auditorium desperately needs a technical director. Just one person who knows what he/she is doing to straighten out the place. So much potential...
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric raceway like this cost

Wow, yeah definitely a lot of code violations/fire hazards in there. I hope it gets straightened out soon, because it looks like the clock is ticking on some of that electrical wiring.

Now that first picture - am I just looking at it wrong, or is that some kind of double lamp cap modification done to the 360Q? Maybe to fit an EGG/EGE lamp? I have never seen anything like that, and if it is what I think it is, I'm surprised someone could dream it up and have the time/skills necessary to do such a task (especially when it only costs a few bucks to get the correct parts in there!)
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric raceway like this cost

I know where all of the S4 caps are- I'll take a look (and a picture) and see if I can determine why they were dismantled. Those S4s that are sitting on the floor look to be in slightly better shape than the ones currently in use. Almost all of the S4s on the catwalk have peeling paint and a few have damaged reflectors. Thanks for the tip about new caps!

We have a technical director, whom I get along well with, but I think he's just swamped. He's only hired on a part-time basis, so he usually has to address current show/contract needs when he's around. He's enthusiastic about getting the work done, but he's not sure about how to get it started. And thanks, we really are lucky. It's really a beautiful place- that's why I'm working so hard to restore and preserve it.

I'm not sure about that fixture- I think we have more like it. I didn't look too closely at it because I wrote it off as Hub (charcoal brown color). Next time I can get in there I'll take some more photos.
 
Re: Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a new electric raceway like this cost

Here's some detailed photos of that fixture. Some of them are blurry, sorry about that. For the throws, it's hard to hold a fixture in one hand and take photos with the other.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.asp...C9157DE99DE0C85A!105&authkey=!AHpsR-fJ7y8G7Uk


Wow never seen something like that. It's an extender that allows one to use the cap from a 360 (a radial ellipsoidal) on a 360Q (an axial ellipsoidal). Neat!
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back