Wireless Choosing a Wireless System

[titan]

The company I work for is in the market to purchase five wireless headworn-mic systems.

The environment would be a train car with an existing PA system where the speakers are overhead and are non-directional, insofar as the purpose is for everyone to hear the audio so the speakers face multiple directions and are inset in the walls. Being train cars, it's a bit difficult for an individual to speak loudly enough for everyone to hear and not blow out the eardrums of the patrons in the immediate vicinity.

In each car there would be an individual that would use the wireless mic to communicate various historical information and other announcements. So, everything is spoken.

So, there are primarily two concerns that I have: feedback and crosstalk. I have found a few headworn mics that are uni-directional, and I found several systems that either have fixed channels or user settable channels.

I've looked at the Nady UHF-3 systems, and the Audio-Technica ATW-901/H System 9. The System 9 is nice because of the channel selection, the UHF-3 is nice because it's significantly cheaper. Both of the systems have uni-directional headworn-mics.

It may be a greater benefit to have the channel selection in case of hardware failure, which will allow us to use the individual components interchangeably.

What are your thoughts?

 

[themuzicman]

The speakers overhead are certainly directional, so that's a thing to consider.

Never used Nady's, wouldn't trust them. You're going to want user defined channels, no idea what the RF environment near you is, but because it's a train and moving presumably you'll be moving through various areas and will need flexibility in case you have interference.

You were right in thinking of the uni-directional versus the omni directional pattern of the mics, especially with overhead speakers coming in to play - something cardioid would probably help nab any issues before they happened.

A final factor to think of is what happens when a microphone dies (When, not If...) - how easy will it be to get a replacement of the particular style you have. I'm assuming cost is a major factor to what type of system you get, based on your post. Spending a few more dollars today may help you out down the line - build quality of the transmitter and receiver will be better, and replacement parts will be easier to find.

In terms of cheaper price and better build quality, look at some of the older Sennheiser stuff - you may be able to find a bunch of ew300 G2 units in your price range, G1 is a little older - fewer bells and whistles, but same great quality. Shure SLX, while it doesn't have user programmable channels (just a bank of selectable channels) is still very good and probably in your price range. Those are my usual Go-To inexpensive models.

 

[titan]

The speakers overhead are certainly directional, so that's a thing to consider.

I meant non-directional as in there isn't a place for the person to stand where they can both face the customers and not have a speaker behind or to the side of him or her.

Never used Nady's, wouldn't trust them.

I have at a church 20 years ago, they're a bit boxey in sound, but they work reliably and some heavy EQ'ing will make it sound more natural. I was hesitant to recommend Nady because we don't have a full blown sound system. Just an old PA system.

You're going to want user defined channels, no idea what the RF environment near you is, but because it's a train and moving presumably you'll be moving through various areas and will need flexibility in case you have interference.

We're in the Smoky Mountains. You're lucky if you can get a radio signal, so there isn't much RF polution. The channels the railroad uses are licensed and regulated by the Federal Railroad Administration, which means any system we select for the wireless mic will not overlap.

You were right in thinking of the uni-directional versus the omni directional pattern of the mics, especially with overhead speakers coming in to play - something cardioid would probably help nab any issues before they happened.

A final factor to think of is what happens when a microphone dies (When, not If...) - how easy will it be to get a replacement of the particular style you have. I'm assuming cost is a major factor to what type of system you get, based on your post. Spending a few more dollars today may help you out down the line - build quality of the transmitter and receiver will be better, and replacement parts will be easier to find.

In terms of cheaper price and better build quality, look at some of the older Sennheiser stuff - you may be able to find a bunch of ew300 G2 units in your price range, G1 is a little older - fewer bells and whistles, but same great quality. Shure SLX, while it doesn't have user programmable channels (just a bank of selectable channels) is still very good and probably in your price range. Those are my usual Go-To inexpensive models.

The Shure SLX is a bit too expensive, nearly twice the cost of the systems I'm looking at, but I did find the Shure PG14/PG30 Wireless Headset System. It has 10 channels instead of the 4 the Audio-Technica system I mentioned, and it's only $20 more. Given that we'll need 5 of these systems, and the furthest one will be just inside the transmission radius, it may be better to have the additional channels.

So far it looks like I can get the components individually when they need replacement, but if Shure's wireless system are anything like they're wired systems, it may be so long from now that we'll just need to get a new system.

 

[BillESC]

You might want to look at Audio Technica's System 10 as it offers up to 8 channels at once. The ATW-1101/H comes with the Pro 8HEcW which is a hypercardioid headworn mic.

 

[titan]

You might want to look at Audio Technica's System 10 as it offers up to 8 channels at once. The ATW-1101/H comes with the Pro 8HEcW which is a hypercardioid headworn mic.

Thanks for the suggestion, but again, significantly more expensive.

I found the Shure PG system at Adorama for $220.

I'm sure there are used System 10s that can be had for cheap, but I want the warranty for the company.

 

[Chris15]

It is critical to understand that the number of channels IS NOT the same as the number of systems that can be operated at the same time.
As an example, the Shure PG system you referred to has 10 channels, but states a maximum of 4 simultaneously operating systems in the band.
And that is without ANY external sources eating available spectrum - TV station etc.

If you are going to use 5 systems concurrently, you will not be happy with the results achieved by cheaping out on them...

 

[AlexDonkle]

My personal experience is that any wireless system selling new for under $500/channel is almost guaranteed to cause more problems than they're worth, even more so if you're on a low budget and won't be able to re-buy better equipment later if issues arise. Personally, I would either try to find a wired headset mic solution (unless they need to walk around a lot), or searching the used market as someone mentioned above (Shure SLX, Sennheiser G2, etc.) and make sure it's outside the 700 Hz range.

 

[dboomer]

You have a couple of unrelated issues that you are running together.

First ... feedback and background noise pickup. Get a Crown CM311 headset mic. It's the only thing that will work, period. These are a very different kind on microphone and will cancel background noise as well as give you probably better than 10 dB of additional gain before feedback. The are maybe expensive for your budget but they will be the least expensive way to fix your problem.

Wireless ... feedback and background noise pickup are connected to the microphone you use but not to the radio. If you are planning to use conventional TV band UHF wireless systems your best choices would be too get ones that will tune in your safe harbor channels. That would be 602-608MHz and 614-620 MHz as those frequencies in your area are reserved for wireless mic use only.

 

[Talley]

What is being used now?

The deal is, if you go cheap on the wireless, they won't work. If it were me I wouldn't look at any less than Sennheiser G3 300 series, and the 500s would be the ones you should be looking at.
Sennheiser also has a headset mic that would be good for what you are wanting to do. HSP4

If you can't spend the money on something that will work reliably, the way you want it to, and won't have to be fiddled with every other day, just get a wired 58.

If you do spend money on a system that doesn't work the way you, or the way the owners are expecting it to... well, you have just thrown money away, and you have bought stuff that you won't be able to sell on the used market to make some of your money back.

If the clients can't hear because the person speaking has no mic or if they can't hear cause the wireless doesn't work doesn't make a difference, the outcome is the same.

 

[TJCornish]

What is being used now?

The deal is, if you go cheap on the wireless, they won't work. If it were me I wouldn't look at any less than Sennheiser G3 300 series, and the 500s would be the ones you should be looking at.
Sennheiser also has a headset mic that would be good for what you are wanting to do. HSP4

If you can't spend the money on something that will work reliably, the way you want it to, and won't have to be fiddled with every other day, just get a wired 58.

If you do spend money on a system that doesn't work the way you, or the way the owners are expecting it to... well, you have just thrown money away, and you have bought stuff that you won't be able to sell on the used market to make some of your money back.

If the clients can't hear because the person speaking has no mic or if they can't hear cause the wireless doesn't work doesn't make a difference, the outcome is the same.

What feature of the EW500 series pushes you to recommend them? As far as I've heard, the RF performance is identical between the 100, 300, and 500 series.

 

[Talley]

The only real reason I lean for the 500s is because I own all three series as headset systems and the 500s have served me better than the others. The main difference between the 300 and 500 for me has been sonically. I don't know that you will realize any difference in the train car. The 300s will do just fine.
I have not had great luck with the 100s without paddle antennas.

I would just go for as good of a system as I could get. Shure ULX-P, AT 3000 or 4000. There are others that are more and less nice.
You may not need something as far up the scale as some of these. In my opinion, what you spend on quality now will exponentially save you in headaches later.
I haven't ever heard anyone say that they wished they a bought a lesser line of wireless. I, along with many others, have wished that I had spent a little more for a little better.
i.e. I got 100s and wished I had bought 300s. I then bought 300s and they work great. Then I tried a 500 and wished I had bought them from the beginning.

I do understand that budget plays a HUGE factor in purchasing, just get as nice of a system as you can.

I have not tried any of them from any brand, but I kind of wonder how some of the digital systems would work for you.

You might check out the Da-Cappo headsets also. We like them a lot.

No matter what you choose, you might pick a couple different ones and try to rent them so you can try them out. I would hate for you to get something that isn't going to work out for you.

 

[TJCornish]

The only real reason I lean for the 500s is because I own all three series as headset systems and the 500s have served me better than the others. The main difference between the 300 and 500 for me has been sonically. I don't know that you will realize any difference in the train car. The 300s will do just fine.
I have not had great luck with the 100s without paddle antennas.

I would just go for as good of a system as I could get. Shure ULX-P, AT 3000 or 4000. There are others that are more and less nice.
You may not need something as far up the scale as some of these. In my opinion, what you spend on quality now will exponentially save you in headaches later.
I haven't ever heard anyone say that they wished they a bought a lesser line of wireless. I, along with many others, have wished that I had spent a little more for a little better.
i.e. I got 100s and wished I had bought 300s. I then bought 300s and they work great. Then I tried a 500 and wished I had bought them from the beginning.

I do understand that budget plays a HUGE factor in purchasing, just get as nice of a system as you can.

I have not tried any of them from any brand, but I kind of wonder how some of the digital systems would work for you.

You might check out the Da-Cappo headsets also. We like them a lot.

No matter what you choose, you might pick a couple different ones and try to rent them so you can try them out. I would hate for you to get something that isn't going to work out for you.

Here is a forum post from Eric Reese of Sennheiser USA:

Mark,
Adam is correct as far as RF/audio is concerned across 100/300/500 G3. Everyone else have also been spot on. A few more differences worth mentioning:

100: Smaller single color display, no networking, does not ship with rack-mount, Guitar tuner/cable emulation

300: Larger dual color display (red when muted), advanced muting options on HH and BP, programmable mute button on HH, Networking/Control, rackmount included

500: Display as 300, Guitar tuner/cable emulation, no "hard" mute button on HH, ships with 900 Series capsules, Networking/control, rackmount included

In general: capsules are interchangeable across EWG3 and 2K, all compatable with Sennheiser recharging accessories, antenna distribution, etc.

The e865 capsule is a small diaphragm electret condensor (The "Sting" mic) whereas the e965 is a 1" true condensor, switchable patterns, pad, roll-off (via software on the wireless capsule).

I hope this helps. Let us know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,
Eric
Market Development: Installed Sound
Sennheiser Electronic Corporation

Original post is here: Sennheiser G3 300 vs 500 & 865 vs 965 capsules


I would suggest that your perceived performance differences between models related to the local RF environment at the time and chosen frequencies, and not product differences.