Design Classic Flip out Footlights going LED

ship

Senior Team Emeritus
Premium Member
Have these c.1924 Kliegl #829 footlights http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/M/catmc1926p9.jpg which fold up from flush to reveal the classic incandescent foot lights.

Project Manager chose a fixture smallest and would fit, I said... just a little routing and cutting, the historic part can be saved. Thought they could be, but there is no way to fit the light short of reversing it's foot light reflectors within it. I was wrong in initial way to do it that got sold.

Tried this reverse of reflectors, it worked until something in having to reverse every reflector and re-assembling again, something internally came un-plugged and it lost most of the circuits. Boss was than... nope, Void's UL listing, put it back how it was. But this fixture fits within the light much better.... My old concept of routing out the oak flooring and framing won't work....

Next option C, remove the fixture and just install the lights on a flipped out flat plate.... last option in no room to store the flip out fixtures promissed.

I'll get the brand/type of LED footlight fixture, but they will fit if I reverse their reflectors, this within the lighting fixture mounting.

Interesting, of the antique foot light fixture in trying to dissemble it, there is no way to replace lamp sockets within it. I have never seen this before - ever! Were there a panel that comes off to access and replace it's lamp sockets, it will have made for more options. There was no access to medium screw lamp sockets short of drilling out pound rivets. Fascinating foot light.

Given the RGBW footlight is not available, and the Project Manager spent hours searching for a fixture to drop in.... Yet the fixture physically wont fit inside the floor pocket - short of reversing it's reflectors and than it will fit fine.

Can we contact the company and factory reverse the reflectors? If de-listing the UL by us reversing reflectors, can the factory do this? No' we already have bought these, we will be using what is delivered. Can we return them..... In doing what will work properly?

Like my boss and in many ways he is my best friend one short of my Wife. Just wich in a lot of time with him spent, us discussing how each other would do something, he would continue the brain trust. Lots of reasons lately the manager don't need his tech head in bidding a new project.

I don't know how I'm going to get these A-19 foot lights into flip out LED footlights yet. But the project is in my hands and already quoted for in billing.
 
In studying the very slight differences between reflectors on the LED foot light, I can say going LED tape at in general 120 degree won't work - even with the four node wide with rows of VHD RGB as per a panel won't work. I could make a plate atop the lamp bases and use the designed reflector for the foot light to do it perhaps, but not efficient use of the light. Nor would I use RGB tape for anything perminant install at this point in having a service use of at best... 10 years. Project Manager says he spent hours looking for something else foot light fixture type in a foot light design, I'll try a search myself with time limited - more projects added to work on even today.

Had a thought tonight. Lots of room under the foot lights in the shell above the orcestra pit. Fall back plan is agreed to make a plate under the oak covers to sit the fixtures on and just remove and store the foot lights when closing the panels up. No room to store them, but final option as of yesterday..

New idea, what if in going back to last summer's personal fan project, we were to pantograph the lights so they could be raised and lowered within the cavity with a mounting plate.... Have to make the oak flooring plates independant and flip up, than a way to make the "X" hinged mounting platforms rise up. (This mechanically as over budget already in concept to doing it mechanically.) But there is room under the foot light panels for the LED fixtures to store if I designed a pantograph system for them.

Just have to re-hinge the oak panels for top covers, and make a pantograph system and platform to mount the lights. Might work as a concept. Would take a lot of engineering to seperately mount the oak covers, currently mounted to the lights, and to engineer a pantograph that will be fighting gravity while in the "up" position. There is also no structure below the lights, and limited support from the framework of the footlight tops. They were self supporting. That will also be a challenge,.
 
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Ship, you always have the most interesting projects going. Here's a question- what about putting E26 to Edison socket adapters (one in each of the three channels- leave the other 9 empty) and then maybe lay three 4' LED 120V T8 tubes on top of one another. Gel them as you need. Not sure if that would work or fit- but it would give you a row of light in a small profile, and potentially power off of line voltage. ??
 
That's a fascinating idea. Was thinking early today LED RGBW circuit boards laid across a heat sink plate mounted above removed lamp bases on that mounting plate for the lamp bases with ballasts in the lamp socket cavity. Both concepts would use the original reflector for it's intended purpose, and keep the Kligl name plate in place. Such concepts would also make use of what was there in fixture for retaining it as the theater Managers want.

Not sure if three or four tubes would fit unless I went T-5 which is probably not LED yet. Lamp socket plate is only like 4" wide so even with stacking... "Bunch light style" I probably would not be able to do much. Thanks for the out of the box idea in one that would be a even flow of lighting desired.

I think such an idea is for the future, but the Project Manager came to work today on a day he was taking off, and we hashed out some rules with the Project. #1 we already bought these footlights, they are sitting on the dock and will be using them. #2 any concept of pantograph is over thinking and engineering this problem. #3 we already bought these fixtures and will be using them.

We agreed to take some time for me to fabricate a hinged cover to the lights with the E-26 lamp sockets and refeector assembly removed. Took three welds for one of the brackets in welder thinking he made a mistake, but actually did it right the first time, but got the hinged brackets made. Oak flooring cover now hinges as designed without any lighting. Nope the fixtures short of reversing the reflectors still won't fit by way of a half inch - at best in rough figuring. Even doing the Pantograph concept would be a challenge.

Again, can we send the fixtures back to the factory to reverse the reflectors so they work as needed? They as fixtures fit inside the fixture with some easy work to the old fixture if we can do this.... Time for me to step back and let the Project Manager figure it out. He will either figure it out with other heads brought in how to do this, or relent in either other fixtures or just reversing the reflectors on them.

At the moment, I'm still helping in creating a shelf for the light to fold with supported by the old oak... won't work or fit but have to show to progress.

In part my fault in getting this turd of a project. I was brought to the client and offered a solution in making them LED strip which would not work in later examination. I should have said "Might Work" more than "Should fit" more.

Back to the theater tomorrow for more step light install to finish it, and the lobby torch light install. You know I was hoping the site Electricitian would be doing this project... I don't feel comfortable about drilling into the terrazo for mounting the torch lights. What if I crack it in a bad way? I would rather the electrician on-site do this... nope my job. And next tomorrow onto a mansion where I'm to take on more unique chandeliers to restore. My odd prjects jest keep piling up.
 
"We already bought these and will be using them." The comment I want to make will get me admonished ever so sternly... so I'll leave it at:

The wrong piece of gear at the right price is still the wrong piece of gear.
 
To his defense, there is nothing else really to make work in his search. Got what we have to work with, sold and bought. Just have to figure out how to make it work, working on that.

Terrazo was only 1" thick in most places with empty pocket and not cement under. Had to last minute come up with a different fastener system. No cracks to it, but I wish we water jetted a 3/8" bottom plate instead of a 1/4" thick one. 7' long pole lights stilll flex, and while better than just the 1/16" scrollwork supports for them, you still see a scrollwork flex, and even a flex with the 1/4" plate. Hopefully once the designed 1/2" NPT pipe epoxied into lower cement, with the other plates... it will stiffen all this up so it lasts longer than the boing boing the last torch lights were. 1/2" NPT pipe into the base concrete was the origional stiffining means of attachment. I hope once the epoxy cures, this will at least be better. If notion people banging these in the lobby... just have to re-design and come up with a new plan.

Mansion up the hill Chandileers got stolen! They didn't persay,. just Project Manager on site got mis-communicated to in saying to an electrician on site that the fixtures were trash. Mis-communications happens, I even got yelled (per say in words sent) at for taking a 4.5" Hub Leko home, which was approved later in doing so. This in mis-understood Leko "stolen" that it would return as per a prop RGBW Leko later amongst all viable re-installed. The electrician at the mansion took them home to E-Bay them. "Bring them back right now!" Was said, but I'm off the project now. Miscommunicatitations happen on a job site. Happy with this, the major part of the project was to replace a broken UFO type lens to it from the late 40's/50's which is probably not replacable. Yep... washing hands on that.
 
If anyone interested, onto the brass railing project for the orchestra pit. Was a stair case over it, and most of the piping and fittings are missing. Was a brass piping over the balconies for spare replacement parts but they somehow got painted gold or bright brass. It above on the balcany was all replaced with something modern and safety compliant so the brass tubing from the balalcany is spare parts to re-make the original orchestra pip piping.

Don't know how or why, but those parts from the balcany rail system don't match up with those of the lower orchestra pit assembly. About 1/32" larger in fitting. Upper rails just don't fit with the other parts. The Orchestra Pit rail fittings are not just smaller but corroded in needing shining. The balcany rail parts needed to complete this need paint removal. Under parts need material removal by way of drum sander and set screw drilling and tapping. Many hours TBA in how to remove paint, clean and preserve petina, and how to make pipe fittings fit and secure. Huge project not planned for.
 
Not officially against the rules.... because nobody has tried it :) in my building. A few posts back I noted the baking soda and boiling water solution for removing paint works well in preserving patina - aka "Ask This Old House" (In the past a linik to) solution TBD soon. Once the Shop Manager does not work a full day at the shop as waiting that out as normal, now in my department, I will do it. Different but not bad smell might be a problem with him. I have a number of lighting fixtures and a lot of brass pipe fittings to sweat the paint off of. Easiest to do in my department with easy access to water and power. Much less to watch the pot boiling over. Before I put the 2" drum sander wheel into the drill press to make pipe fit into fittings, want to remove the paint.

Theme here is I'm up for every project I can take on out of the shop at any jobsite for an install. That or some project I can take back to the shop in doing better there and keeping me busy. Slightly different than those that want the touring season at work to begin again in "send me on the road". I prefer to go to bed in my own bed, or if not spend a day or week on-site. Day trips on site suck in travel. If i'm doing an install Hotel me for a few days in getting stuff done, and get me home. Get me home for a few projects I can best work on at the shop, to rest and re-tool, and back to the install. Happy way of life for me only because Shop Management is an @$$ in over 20 years working with and or around him. Similar to "Send me on Tour" general statement, "Get me out of the shop, or while he is gone back" is mine.

A small LED project for a video was cool a few weeks ago, not yet board in the shop enough to fix Soco cable... Lots of work I can do, just my assistants used to take care of for me. I got spoiled in what I work on, but do and did work when really board on stuff below my pay grade. Fixed a lot of cable in the past weeks while in the shop with nothing else to work on. Looking forward to getting busy again enough to rehire one of three assistants.
 
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Have these c.1924 Kliegl #829 footlights http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/M/catmc1926p9.jpg which fold up from flush to reveal the classic incandescent foot lights.

Project Manager chose a fixture smallest and would fit, I said... just a little routing and cutting, the historic part can be saved. Thought they could be, but there is no way to fit the light short of reversing it's foot light reflectors within it. I was wrong in initial way to do it that got sold.

Tried this reverse of reflectors, it worked until something in having to reverse every reflector and re-assembling again, something internally came un-plugged and it lost most of the circuits. Boss was than... nope, Void's UL listing, put it back how it was. But this fixture fits within the light much better.... My old concept of routing out the oak flooring and framing won't work....

Next option C, remove the fixture and just install the lights on a flipped out flat plate.... last option in no room to store the flip out fixtures promissed.

I'll get the brand/type of LED footlight fixture, but they will fit if I reverse their reflectors, this within the lighting fixture mounting.

Interesting, of the antique foot light fixture in trying to dissemble it, there is no way to replace lamp sockets within it. I have never seen this before - ever! Were there a panel that comes off to access and replace it's lamp sockets, it will have made for more options. There was no access to medium screw lamp sockets short of drilling out pound rivets. Fascinating foot light.

Given the RGBW footlight is not available, and the Project Manager spent hours searching for a fixture to drop in.... Yet the fixture physically wont fit inside the floor pocket - short of reversing it's reflectors and than it will fit fine.

Can we contact the company and factory reverse the reflectors? If de-listing the UL by us reversing reflectors, can the factory do this? No' we already have bought these, we will be using what is delivered. Can we return them..... In doing what will work properly?

Like my boss and in many ways he is my best friend one short of my Wife. Just wich in a lot of time with him spent, us discussing how each other would do something, he would continue the brain trust. Lots of reasons lately the manager don't need his tech head in bidding a new project.

I don't know how I'm going to get these A-19 foot lights into flip out LED footlights yet. But the project is in my hands and already quoted for in billing.
I've read through this entire thread and one thing that fails to register is a visual as to just how reversing the reflected will make them fit better. Is it possible to make a quick line drawing showing the x-ray profile both ways and showing the flooring, building framing and the trapdoor structure?
 
In studying the very slight differences between reflectors on the LED foot light, I can say going LED tape at in general 120 degree won't work - even with the four node wide with rows of VHD RGB as per a panel won't work. I could make a plate atop the lamp bases and use the designed reflector for the foot light to do it perhaps, but not efficient use of the light. Nor would I use RGB tape for anything perminant install at this point in having a service use of at best... 10 years. Project Manager says he spent hours looking for something else foot light fixture type in a foot light design, I'll try a search myself with time limited - more projects added to work on even today.

Had a thought tonight. Lots of room under the foot lights in the shell above the orcestra pit. Fall back plan is agreed to make a plate under the oak covers to sit the fixtures on and just remove and store the foot lights when closing the panels up. No room to store them, but final option as of yesterday..

New idea, what if in going back to last summer's personal fan project, we were to pantograph the lights so they could be raised and lowered within the cavity with a mounting plate.... Have to make the oak flooring plates independant and flip up, than a way to make the "X" hinged mounting platforms rise up. (This mechanically as over budget already in concept to doing it mechanically.) But there is room under the foot light panels for the LED fixtures to store if I designed a pantograph system for them.

Just have to re-hinge the oak panels for top covers, and make a pantograph system and platform to mount the lights. Might work as a concept. Would take a lot of engineering to seperately mount the oak covers, currently mounted to the lights, and to engineer a pantograph that will be fighting gravity while in the "up" position. There is also no structure below the lights, and limited support from the framework of the footlight tops. They were self supporting. That will also be a challenge,.
or skip the pantograph fanciness and just make them liftable (like with a meter-reading or man-hole lifting tool) and barrel-bolt them into their raised positions when they are needed. If they are up for an entire show's run (not have to be lowered every nite for trip avoidance) wouldn't be a lot of bother to manually raise/lower them once a month.
 
Very astout postings in not fitting. https://www.robertjuliat.com/ambiance_lighting/dalis864.html#.YGaY3OhKi1s

This is the bought fixture to install fixture within the fixtures. More TBD later. Pantograph and concept of this is on hold as per fantasies in concept. They just don't fit. Foot lights from the venu sitting on saw horses, fixtures to insall on the dock. Just plain pause. As for reversable reflectors... above - possible but given a short in doing so I cannot confirm viable. Just a pause until I take apart the 24" experimental fixture again and reverse it's reflectors, and re-test the concept of it.... might be possible? This to save the project in fitting?

Thanks for the advice and criticism. I'm work with it. If I do the reverse optics in the coming week, I will certainly post. Only the tech person given a fixture to install, trying to make it work.
 
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pictures as you progress would be fun to see!
 
I'm glad I'm not doing your gig, Ship.
 
Two hour trip today each way to the theater and back. Didn't discuss this part of the project at all. Sometimes "we can do that" comes to reality. I can get gold spray paint off brass rail fittings without removing the petina, and TBA the whole reversing reflector concept for fittinging as might be needed. Yea, the reflectors were not marked for fitting and might have been the same. Thought for a moment before something came un-plugged within the fixture I see in reversed reflectors. Suppose a RJ questiion in defining that for sure if the refectors are as supposed of different optical reflectance, or if they are the same beam spreads which in reversing. Means the difference in.. could work within the fixture paramaters in reversing.

Once if assumed the RJ sign off of reversing reflectors, it than would not void UL listing because it's the same fixture and in theory would fit as proposed. TBA projecect in re-looking at making it work. Some work on the 1924 Kliegl lights to make them fit, but would word as per paid approval to go with the project.
 

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