Comb Filtering

I could use some suggestions here as well.

We wear our lavs over the ear as well. What I've tried that seems to help is to have everyone put their lav over the same ear so when they're facing each other or facing in the same direction, the mics are a comfortable distance from each other and in a "balanced" position.

If you have enough clout, you may also want to work with the director on actors' head positioning and distance. I'm going to start doing that in future shows.

I also play with the faders a lot, and for that you just have to memorize the dialogue.

Fyi, I also think having good lavs helps. We have Countryman B3s for the leads and they seem much better at handling sound issues than the stock AKG C417/Ls that came with our transmitters (AKG WMS80 systems).

I would like to hear if anyone knows what the pros do ... process the sound, or just do what we're doing?

Thanks. John
 
LOL, the pro's do the same thing you're doing...we mix. :)

Seriously, "varsity" mixing for theatre is all about line-by-line mixing. It's not easy, by any means, but it can be done. I've finally gotten to a point where, if I spend enough time prepping with the script and music beforehand, I can pick up a show pretty fast. I mixed a reading for the NY Musical Theatre Festival with a 12 person cast. As it was a reading, we tech'd lights starting around 9a, and had enough time for exactly one run-through before the 3pm opening performance. Two shows that night, and one or two the next day (can't recall for sure).

By the second show, I had it pretty clean, and by the third, I was mixing it line-by-line almost in its entirety. It's just about learning your material, learning your tools, and practice coordinating what you're hearing, what you're seeing in the script and onstage, and how your fingers are moving.

The biggest trick in "the big leagues" is that we make extensive use of VCA assignment automation. We mix the show on the VCAs, not the channels. Typically the furthest right two VCAs are the band and vocal reverbs, then the third from last is the band mix (typically your right pinky lives on that fader, for all intents and purposes). Then the remaining VCAs are assigned, as needed, to the actors. In smaller scenes, each actor may have their own VCA. In larger scenes, leads will have their own, and then the ensemble may be condensed onto one or two VCAs. This way you can easily control a large number of inputs with your eight fingers.

But seriously, beyond that, there's no magic, no secret, no processing. It's exactly what you're doing, just with the speed and skill that comes with lots of practice.
 
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Thanks Andy -- this is great information. I have a few followup questions for you:

1) Mic placement -- in musical theatre, where do they hide the mics? I've seen Disney put them on the top of the forehead pointing downward, which would work if you have wigs or a costume person with the right equipment (glue?) to mount and unmount the equipment on the actors. Beach Blanket supposedly just uses clip-ons, although I wonder how you get consistent sound as the actor turns their head if the mic isn't actually mounted somewhere on their head. At our theater we just tape over the ear, which serves us reasonably well with lack of sound help backstage. Is there a "best" approach?

2) Actor placement -- Are the actors trained and blocked to accomodate sound issues? I.e. do they keep their distance and/or pay attention to head placement during close-ups, etc? I just want to know how much clout I should have in "directing" the play.

3) Sound processing -- In addition to playing the faders, is any sound processing used to help eliminating cross-pickup of mics? Gating?

Thanks in advance. I'm an engineer by schooling but relatively new to this industry so I'm trying to get up to speed on the technology use here ... :)

-- John
 
Taped to forehead is pretty common, clipped on most people point the mic down to the chest, then it is picking up the sound with less directional effect

Sharyn
 
Somewhat related questions to what he said. I have seen some Wicked clips from Youtube how they bring down the mic onto the middle of the forehead. I saw a few songs at different places.

1. Do the mikes come with a lot of different colors (except green)? I mean, what kind of color variety do the manufacturers offer, or do they color them themselves.

2. On wicked, it looked like Elphaba's mic was black. Coudn't they special order some green ones? ...I mean, they're Broadway...

3. My dad tells me that a tech told him that the best place for a mic is between the eyes (where the unibrow is on most actors) because of the sinuses vibrating. Is this true? I did not see them like that on wicked. Is it just harder to hide?...

4. Is this why Broadway uses straight forward face lights as oposed to McCandless' version of 45* angles. Is it to hide their microphones better?(no shadow, so they just match the color?) I could only see them when the camera angle changed to a view point higher, or more to the side than the audience sees. (I could see the shadow)

5. Do they glue the mic down, or tape it? (could not see tape)

6. I have heard other places that they store their mics in an airtight box with water absorbant packets. We currently hang the mic upside down with the connector end between 2 screws in the wall. The cords had been coiled with the packs before, and this was supposed to help straighten them out. It hasn't worked very well so far. Do they coil them up in the boxes, or do they get really long and straight boxes? (if they really do that) Is our method of storing lavs upside down on a wall a good system?

7. When miked over the ear, I heard they should be about 2 cm past the ear. Is this true? We have always put ours more forward. We have MKE2's but they are black, so could they pick up well and still be well hidden?

Other random questions.

7.5 How good is the SM58 Shure microphone? I think I have seen it on TV being used for bands, and I think I saw some also being used for violins on an orchestra.

8. What are other good mics for other miking situations.

9. We also have an SM58, which the singers like to keep very close to their mouths. I have seen lips actually touching the grill on TV, but it still had good sound.(and the manual says optimal performance is from 6'' to touching the lips) Our mic still has a lot of P's, B's, breathing, etc. What is used to professionally fix this? Can this be achieved with 1 graphic EQ, and a compressor?

10. Whenever I see miked drums (like on SNL, or other bands) it looks like the mics about the toms are similar to instrument mics, and they are pointing horizontally instead of down. Does this create better sound, or are they omni, or is the cardioid pattern off axis? Or is it something else? (have I just never seen it right?)


I know this is a lot of questions, especially at once. If ya'll kuld jus give your opinion on as many as you could, that would be groovy. :)
 
This is the most simplist response, of the one's i know the awnswers too!

1. standard colors are usually black and flesh colored
2. dont know... but cant they have scenic paint them green? broadway= $
3. above the head is standard now a days... however most will agree that every bit of your audio system can say different
4. 30' rule + audience psychology = your not paying attention to the show
5. the ones ive seen have been clipped to the hair line
6. airtight boxes sound cool.. the way you do it is cool.. wrapping them around transmitters or in tight coils at that guage..prolly not soo cool..
7. i found that right where the uper jaw and lower jaw meet is a great place... too close to the mouth will result in low end gurgle and too close to the ear and you will delayed swirling of sound passing around and through your ear shape if that makes ne sense.. MKE 2's are badass you shouldnt have many problems!!!!
7.5 sm58 =.... well best industry wide all in one standard do it mic.. period end of quote. no rebuttle necessarry
8. 52 kik, 421 lots, 91 cool!, 81 killers!, the list goes on!!! only experience will lead YOU to decide what YOU like best!!!
9. High Pass Filter, if ya wanna get fancy sure do the graphic eq plus comp thing.. or just a manley voxbox while your at it.. but then again if your talking about most rock concerts.. having an artists lips touching the windscreen and get where the shure brothers say they perform is the least of anyone in the worlds worries!!!
10. hmm this intrests me if your really correct.. now a lot of times folks will off axis 98's to a 45 degrees or more but yes to awnswer the other question most the time tom mics are directional.. or for that matter very few rock concert mics are omni

hope that helps without being to straightforward
 
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To clarify number 10 abit... It is often suggested that the mic on a Tom or Snare be aimed towards the middle of the drum, and often as far as 3/4 of the way across the drum. Aiming right down at the edge where you have the mic cliped can often lead to a much higher pitched sound then is desired. Drums make different sounds depending on where the drummer hits the drum, and you want to pick up those different sounds evenly, so you generally try to pickup the whole head as much as possible.


Another thing I just read about in a recording book but have not had a chance to try is this: With a snare drum line up the microphone with the beads (if the beads are running from top to bottom relative to the drummer, put your mic right at the top and aim it right down at the drum edge nearest the drummer) so you get the sound of the beads across the whole head instead of just the sound of the beads where they cross the "streight line of sight" of the mic.

In short, there's no lack of methods to try!
 
I don't understand some of your answers...

"1. standard is 2 colors of lav."
the Countryman line says they have 5 colors. Is this the only company that does this? Do they just use makeup to match the lav to the skin? (or skin to lav color?)

"3. Above the head=standard mic placement..."
...sorry, what do you mean? Not brought down the forehead, but just at the edge of the hairline?

Also, what is the professional opinion of my dad's sinuses theory? Is this just impractical to hide, or is the sound crappy as well?

"4. 30' rule = audience psychology. You're not paying attention to the show."
...what do you mean?... Most audience members aren't looking for the microphone? What is this 30' rule you speak of?

"5. ...mics clipped down hariline..."
When I saw them (on Wicked at least) the actual head of the mic was 3 inches down their forehead. Do they do this more often, or just at the edge of the hairline (I have seen some very old pictures with them like this from Les Mis, etc.) If it is brought down to the center of the forehead, then do they glue them?

"7. Where upper jaw meets lower jaw..."
Why does the countryman E6i go to almost the corner of the mouth?
(if anynody here is by chance LDS, or has just seen General Conference, is this what they used on President Faust ever since he has been speaking in a chair instead of the pulpit because he can't stand that long anymore?)
I have heard that mic (or, if it is not that one, one just like it) work pretty well, but it disregards everything I have learned about lav placement... Is it just ok becuase it is a stiff cable that supports itself, and is not getting mushy sound from being against the cheek?

Another random one- What is this XLRM type cable I have read about on Audio Technica web site? I read somehwere else that it is just longer? (found this name reading about one of their boundary microphones)

Thanks for your cooperation with the peons.
 
1. dont know for sure
3. usually its the hair line.. bringing it down the forehead would probably achieve more gain.. but not sure what to say about the sinus theory thing
4. exactly! 30' rule applies to a lot of things it basically states anything that will be 30' away (distance from audience to stage) should be looked at with a grain of salt.. kinda the whole well jimmmy said we knicked the door jam with that table last nite you go look at it and its the size of less than a quarter chances are your audience wont even notice b/c its soo far away.. dude have you not heard of the 30' rule when it comes to women!? and yes if your audience is looking at microphones on actors heads that far away there not paying attention to the show and the actors should improve!
5. dont know
6. i dont know exactly what conuntryman was thinking when they made the e6.. but if i had to guess they put it closer to the mouth so that no matter who is using it based on the geometry of soo many peoples faces it would land semi close to the mouth and you could adjust it from there where as if it landed around the cheeck you would have a lot more problems... but then again i dont like the way that sounds to begin with but hey thats just me... ohhh and its not a stiff cable that supports it its more like rigid silicone almost
random nother one.. dont look too far into it.. xlrm pretty much stands for exchanging line reciever male.. although im sure i will be rebuted over 5 times on that one

hey dont sweat it man i remember when i had tons and tons of questions and didnt understand nothin thats what the learning process is all about.. have fun but remember sometimes you can find out the awnswers online its full of information that i dont even understand!!!

later dude keeep rockin!!1
 
down on the forehead, it is infact pointing a the sinus area between the eyebrows, so your dad is correct, and that is why it is done that way, the pickup area on the mic will be right there where he is suggesting

why the e6 is long, various sound designers use different places for the mic on the side of the head and sometimes this mic is used for other than theatrical, so sometimes for singing you might want to get it down closer to the mouth
Sharyn
 
As for #6, ive never seen sealed boxes, but I have seen condoms. The touring Chicago uses condoms to protect their mic transmitters (sennheiser sk5012's) from actors sweat.
 
To me the concept of placing mics in an airtight container with silica gel or some other absorbent material sounds not unreasonable. If I have the theory right, then what it would do would be try out the element of the mic. Having seen how saliva can corrode a conventional sort of mic, then I imagine that there would be potential for a similar sort of effect on lapel mics. By taking away the moisture, I would think it should reduce those effects.
 
Mikes close to mouth -- I'm pretty sure this is simply to maximize the difference in volume between the wearer of the mike and all other ambient sound. The E6 are all lower gain (w5-w7 models ... higher number means lower gain) than the B3 (w4, w5), so putting the mike head close to your mouth lets you turn the gain way down and just pick up the one person.

I've seen that they use E6 at tradeshows when the demo person wants to be heard clearly, but you don't want to pick up someone shouting from 3 feet away.
 
Taped to forehead is pretty common, clipped on most people point the mic down to the chest, then it is picking up the sound with less directional effect
Sharyn

Just one quick correction here--the mic elements typically used for this type of placement are omnidirectional, so you don't need to worry about which way they're pointing. Pointing them downwards is more a way of getting the element a bit closer to the mouth (ie, below the line of the cable/elastic if you're using an elastic loop, or "halo" rig, see my post to follow shortly), not a directional thing.

--A
 
Wow, lots of questions, let's see...

Thanks Andy -- this is great information. I have a few followup questions for you:
1) Mic placement -- in musical theatre, where do they hide the mics? I've seen Disney put them on the top of the forehead pointing downward, which would work if you have wigs or a costume person with the right equipment (glue?) to mount and unmount the equipment on the actors. Beach Blanket supposedly just uses clip-ons, although I wonder how you get consistent sound as the actor turns their head if the mic isn't actually mounted somewhere on their head. At our theater we just tape over the ear, which serves us reasonably well with lack of sound help backstage. Is there a "best" approach?

Well, this is definitely the month to ask this question, as two magazines happen to have features on just this question! First, this month's Dramatics has an article by yours truly, aimed at users without too much sound experience, which you can read online at: http://edta.org/pdf_archive/unwired_sound81200774727.pdf

Second, Stage Directions has a much more detailed version (for reasons of limitations on the audience and length of my article, I don't go into over-the-ear rigs, other than a brief mention of why they're less desirable), by Jason Pritchard, the head of audio for the Cirque du Soleil/Beatles show Love (not to mention an all around cool and very smart guy). While Jason's article is on the SD website, they left out the pictures, eek! You can find the original article it was based on, complete with photos, however, at Jason's website: http://www.brightandloud.com/microphone-placement/

2) Actor placement -- Are the actors trained and blocked to accomodate sound issues? I.e. do they keep their distance and/or pay attention to head placement during close-ups, etc? I just want to know how much clout I should have in "directing" the play.

In an ideal world, they would be. In reality, sometimes if there's a true problem and it's a director who cares a lot about sound, they'll work with you. Most of the time, though, it's up to us to deal with what curveballs the other production departments throw us, through tweaking mic placement, mixing skills, or just dealing with the fact that a certain 3 second segment might sound less than optimal (much as we try to avoid that). There are certainly ways departments work together, for example wardrobe can lend a hand by working with you on the size of a hat brim, or putting some sort of material (like felt) on a large brim to help tame reflections, that sort of thing.

Actually, on that subject, one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given is that the wardrobe department is the sound guy's best friend. Make nice with them as early on as you can, and they'll make your life a thousand times easier in oh so many ways.

3) Sound processing -- In addition to playing the faders, is any sound processing used to help eliminating cross-pickup of mics? Gating?
Thanks in advance. I'm an engineer by schooling but relatively new to this industry so I'm trying to get up to speed on the technology use here ...

Nope. Nothing. Nada. Part of the key to the natural style that most theatrical designers/engineers aim for is minimal processing. It's a bit of a cliche in the industry that, when asked why he doesn't have any compressors in his front of house rack, a good theatrical engineer says, "I've got ten of them, right here," whilst wiggling his fingers.

Occasionally a light bit of compression will be used to tame a particularly dynamic and unpredictable actor, but in most cases, it's really a matter of just learning your script and learning your cast. Once you know those two things, you can develop what almost seems like a psychic connection, where your finger is ducking/boosting the actor's mic almost before the louder/softer sound has come out of his mouth. It's what separates an okay engineer from a great one.

Somewhat related questions to what he said. I have seen some Wicked clips from Youtube how they bring down the mic onto the middle of the forehead. I saw a few songs at different places.
1. Do the mikes come with a lot of different colors (except green)? I mean, what kind of color variety do the manufacturers offer, or do they color them themselves.

Arts and crafts time, baby :) No custom colors, we use artists' pigment markers to custom color lighter elements (In Jason's article, he notes that he prefers the Prismacolor brand, except on Countryman, where he uses the Letraset Pantone line (the Prismacolors aren't colorfast on the Countryman cables); I've always stuck with the Letrasets almost exclusively, although that's primarily because my experience was shaped using them on Countryman elements; I can't say how they compare to the Prismacolors on DPAs or MKE-2s.

Most manufacturers who cater to theatre offer three colors: tan/beige, cocoa/brown, and black. I do see somebody else noted that Countryman apparently makes 5 shades, although I've only ever used their tan, cocoa, and black.

2. On wicked, it looked like Elphaba's mic was black. Coudn't they special order some green ones? ...I mean, they're Broadway...

It would be stupifyingly expensive to get custom colored ones made. You certainly can color them green, but for whatever reason, at least on the night you saw it, they were using a black one. It could be that they needed a spare fast, and were short on other colors, or it may have just been an overall decision that, since the skin is fairly dark, and she's wearing a long black wig, it made more sense to just use the black one that blends in with the hair, and not worry about it.

3. My dad tells me that a tech told him that the best place for a mic is between the eyes (where the unibrow is on most actors) because of the sinuses vibrating. Is this true? I did not see them like that on wicked. Is it just harder to hide?...

There was a study recently done by a grad student in acoustics in the UK on all sorts of placements, both ones visually usable and those, like in the eyebrow range, that you'd never use in real life. I can't recall if this placement was included or not, but I'll try to track down a link to the study report.

That said, that far down, you'll never use it, because you want it to be hidden. In locations where it can be easily hidden, centered on the forehead near the hairline (which, of course, is only a general placement guideline, since hairlines vary, see Jason's article for a bit more on this) is the best compromise of sound quality and invisibility.

4. Is this why Broadway uses straight forward face lights as oposed to McCandless' version of 45* angles. Is it to hide their microphones better?(no shadow, so they just match the color?) I could only see them when the camera angle changed to a view point higher, or more to the side than the audience sees. (I could see the shadow)

Nope, you'd have to ask the lighting designers why they prefer any particular positions, but it has nothing to do with helping us out! That said, Broadway doesn't as a rule use straight on lights, or 45 degrees, or 30 degrees, or any other position. They use lights wherever the designer chooses for the look he/she wants to create (assuming, of course, that they have the physical means to put a light there).

5. Do they glue the mic down, or tape it? (could not see tape)

Tape, although at the forehead it often isn't necessary to tape it at all. With an elastic loop, it's almost always held closely enough in place on its own, and when using bobby pins or wig clips, it's often clipped close enough to the front of the head to not need to be taped. But when it is, some variant of clear medical tape is used; I think I've posted extensively on types of tape and how to use them here before, so try a search for that.

6. I have heard other places that they store their mics in an airtight box with water absorbant packets. We currently hang the mic upside down with the connector end between 2 screws in the wall. The cords had been coiled with the packs before, and this was supposed to help straighten them out. It hasn't worked very well so far. Do they coil them up in the boxes, or do they get really long and straight boxes? (if they really do that) Is our method of storing lavs upside down on a wall a good system?

There's no hard and fast rule, each person has his own way of doing it. What's common, though, is to LOOSELY wrap the element around the pack, and then store both either in a caddy lined with foam (with cutouts in the foam to hold the transmitter) or hung up in one of those shoe organizer deals (bunch of shoe-sized pockets on a long sheet, designed to be hung over the back of your closet door).

The only mic I own that I store with a dessicant is my matched pair of Earthworks QTC-30s, because the diaphragms are sensitive to changes in moisture, and I use them as measurement mics, so the accuracy is important to me. That's why I took to carrying them with me on the plane, rather than shipping them in my workbox on the truck or in my checked luggage in the (non-climate controlled) baggage compartment of the plane.

7. When miked over the ear, I heard they should be about 2 cm past the ear. Is this true? We have always put ours more forward. We have MKE2's but they are black, so could they pick up well and still be well hidden?

That sounds about right, but it will vary for each actor. One of the downsides to over-the-ear mics is that they are very, very placement-sensitive. Even just a few millimeters of difference can make a huge change in the quality of the sound. Generally, you only want to mount mics over-the-ear if you absolutely can't use a forehead placement.

7.5 How good is the SM58 Shure microphone? I think I have seen it on TV being used for bands, and I think I saw some also being used for violins on an orchestra.

It's a pretty common vocal mic, perhaps the most common. It's okay for some things, there are better options for others. Key strongpoints are that they're very consistent, they can take a beating, and every sound shop in the world has plenty of them available, because they're so commonly used.

While you may have seen them being used on violins in an orchestra, I'd be surprised. Condenser mics of varying sorts are much more common for string instruments.

8. What are other good mics for other miking situations.

That's like asking what's a good car. There are hundreds of mics out there, and most of them are very good in certain situations. If you have a specific situation, it's easier to answer that question, but even then, it's a matter of opinion; you can ask what mic to use on an acoustic guitar live to a dozen engineers, and you'll likely get at least two dozen answers, all of them equally valid.

9. We also have an SM58, which the singers like to keep very close to their mouths. I have seen lips actually touching the grill on TV, but it still had good sound.(and the manual says optimal performance is from 6'' to touching the lips) Our mic still has a lot of P's, B's, breathing, etc. What is used to professionally fix this? Can this be achieved with 1 graphic EQ, and a compressor?

A windscreen can help, to an extent. Compressors can, as well, but only so much. Biggest advice is to get your singer to back off the mic. Some singers do like to "eat" the mic, because that proximity effect bass boost is part of "their sound", but in general, it's poor mic technique.

10. Whenever I see miked drums (like on SNL, or other bands) it looks like the mics about the toms are similar to instrument mics, and they are pointing horizontally instead of down. Does this create better sound, or are they omni, or is the cardioid pattern off axis? Or is it something else? (have I just never seen it right?)

It really depends on the mic, and the situation, and the engineer using it. Some engineers prefer a mic at right angles to the head, others want it at a slight angle, the idea being that the mic is placed closer to the outside of the drum (ie, out of striking distance of the drumstick), but is aimed to pick up the attack of the stick hitting the head in addition to the "body". Odds are this is what you're seeing, but due to camera angles, you're misinterpreting it as being horizontal.

Hope this helps,
Andy
 
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While the mic is indeed onmi directional, once you place it directly on a surface *head/ face etc, its characteristics change quite dramatically, you begin to get a boundary effect. While the pattern allows for pickup in all directions, it still is sensitive to the sound level distance. It is also worth noting that an omni mic is only onmidirectional in a single plane. It is fun to experiment how the placement and direction of the omni mic like an E6 directly on a head does offer different tonal and directional performance. This is why the over the ear placement is so problematic, since not only the position but also the relative distance to the head varies. It is one of the reasons why the mic directly on the forehead works, in addition you are not as influence by the distance to source issues (ie the mouth)
Sharyn
 
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As for #6, ive never seen sealed boxes, but I have seen condoms. The touring Chicago uses condoms to protect their mic transmitters (sennheiser sk5012's) from actors sweat.


Ok minor Hijack. We recently did Assassins. Had something like 16 folks with wireless mics on stage. We used un-lubricated condoms for the packs. My Production Manager had to make a run to pick up stuff and the Sound guy ask her to pick up more batteries and condoms as we were running out. So here is my PM , in line at the grocery store with a half a case of AA batteries and giant boxes of un lubricated condoms. < My boss is a beautiful woman in who just turned 50 and looks an lot younger> She had an old lady in line in front of her and an old lady behind her and the checker is about 60. After a lot of side long looks from the other ladies in line she gets to the checker, who doesn't say a word to her. After she pays the checker hands her the bag full of stuff and still doesn't say a thing to her. Kelly starts to walk off then turns and say to the checker, " Oh I need a receipt. This is for work." She said the look on the ladies faces was priceless. :mrgreen:
I love this industry !
 
My favorite was the receipt I submitted for petty cash on a massive televised awards show that my college did (still does, annually--the largest student-produced broadcast in the country). It was for a box of unlubed condoms, a package of kitchen sponges, and a tube of KY Jelly. Raised a few eyebrows at the executive producers' meeting, until it was explained that the condoms were to protect the mics*, the sponges to rig shock mounts for a few mics, and the KY because the sound rental company had brought shock mount inserts for the wrong model of lectern (NOT podium**) microphone, which was slightly smaller than the mics we were using. KY was the only way we could get the mics into the shock mounts!

--A

*-If you only put the condom on, you're often just wasting time and money. To be effective, you also need to stuff the top of the condom with a couple cotton squares (you buy them at the pharmacy, they're usually used for removing makeup and that sort of thing) to keep the sweat out.

For another entertaining story of an adventurous condom buying outing while I was on tour, see http://www.onefromtheroad.com/index.php?p=35 (there are a couple missing parenthesis in the article, sorry about that...not sure why they got lost when I transferred the article from my old site, but just noticed it now, and don't have time to edit it at the moment!)

**-A podium is a raised platform you stand on. A lectern is the thing you stand behind to give a speech. So if anybody calls those gooseneck mics you use on the lectern a podium mic, they're actually using the incorrect term. It's a pet peeve of mine :)
 

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