Installs complete overhaul

Rich,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I think we both agree that it all comes down to the issue of being the right tool for the job and environment in which it is applied. Obviously, your Bose MA12 solution works great for you. My main concern was simply that I often have to deal with people applying the success of a product in one application to very different applications. For example, I have one client that that based on a past experience in a different venue has already decided what speaker he wanted in a new theatre before the facility was even designed or any budget set. So I was not being critical of your application or of Bose but was trying to show that just because a product works well in one situation does not mean it is a good choice for all and there are many factors to consider in selecting a sound system for a specific application.
 
I'm probably just adding more detail then really needed (again) but...

Speaker/Amplifier Question:

Ahhhhh... the old speaker/amp terms struggle. In an industry in which these terms are not well standardized (sometimes not at all) and in which one manufacturer often uses the same term as another, but with altered meaning - its difficult for anyone to decipher at times.
I agree that it can be quite confusing.

Generally speaking, the "continuous" rating describes how well the speaker can withstand long term average demands often measured by playing steady sine waves or some sort of weighted noise input. This type of signal, even at lower power ratings, causes the speaker to do "continuous" hard work and thus, this power handling figure is the lowest of the three.
The Continuous rating is the one that is the most standardized and has the most meaning, primarily because it is typically the only power rating that is actually measured. It is also the rating that most closely relates to long term use and thermal failures. There are two general areas where things get confusing. First, there are a number of standards that define different test signals and time periods. Manufacturers use the various standards based on their own engineering and/or marketing perspective. Second, while the Continuous rating is based on failure, you have no way of knowing what defined the failure; was it something that the speaker could recover from after a period of rest or was it flames and cones flying across the room? The tests and ratings also do not indicate whether the sound of the speaker or driver changes significantly before reaching the failure point. You sometimes see Continuous Power referred to as RMS Power which is technically incorrect, but because it is power calculated based on RMS voltage and impedance this terminology has become quite common.

"Program" is typically based on a test signal that simulates "real world" music conditions - such as - perhaps - your band and vocal group. Obviously, this type of sporadic (both in amplitude and frequency) signal does not require the speaker components to work as hard as a steady-state signal (of similar wattage) and thus the increased allowable "program" wattage figure.
Literally, the Program rating is a made up number. The logic is indeed to represent some 'real world' signal, but since there is nothing limiting how the speaker is used or the type of signal it will reproduce, it is pretty much just a made up number that is usually halfway between the Continuous and Peak ratings.

"Peak" is usually based on an instantaneous spike of signal (usually no more than 1/10 of a second), and is a signal that the manufacturer is indicating should not be exceeded without expecting damage to the speaker (just as in the previous examples). Thus the power handling capability is higher - but only for that brief "instance of time".
Actually, the Peak rating is based solely on the fact that the most common signals used for the Continuous power rating tests are defined to have a 6dB crest factor, thus the peaks in the test signal are 6dB above the average level. Based on this it is assumed that the speaker can handle peaks 6dB above the continuous rating, so the Peak rating is almost always simply 6dB above, or four times, the Continuous rating and is not an actual measured value.

In a nutshell, the terms/ratings described above are merely ways of expressing how much power input the loudspeaker can withstand as it experiences different forms of amplified signal input.
What is really surprising to many people is that the tests rarely actually measure the power applied, they measure the voltage applied and the speaker impedance and from those values calculate the power. There is a committee in AES working on new speaker testing and rating standards that would report both the actual voltage and impedance measurements and would be based on when the speaker exhibits an audible difference in response (+/-3dB at any frequency) rather than requiring actual failure. Some people will resist the new standards as they will likely result in much lower, but much more accurate and valuable, ratings.

Though there is no absolutely "right" amout of power - a reasonable rule of thumb for powering a loudspeaker is to provide amplifier power that has a power rating of 1.5-2.5X the speaker's continuous rating. More is possible with care and with proper utilization of peak limiting.
That rule of thumb is for when you have no specific performance goals and for an average user. For installed systems the process is typically quite different and involves working back from the desired performance at the listeners, including headroom, through the room to the speaker and then using the speaker sensitivity to derive the power required. Only then does the power rating come in and simply as a verification that the speaker can support the power required. So different approaches for different applications.
 
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Okay so Peavy sent out a guy who came in and looked at the space yesterday and he said basically everything you all are suggesting to me (lots of hard objects to bounce off the sound, setting speakers up in clusters, experimenting). He took measurements, blueprints, and pictures and is going to send them off to an sound engineer but regardless of that i'm pretty convinced of what i'm going to do. Hang cluster of three speakers in the center a little in front of the altar and two speakers halfway down the side walls to hit more of the far sides and back sections. For speakers I'm probably going to go with JBL and for amps probably Behringer and also running new 12 gauge wire to all speakers. Anymore more tips and suggestions please feel free to let me know. Thank you all for all your help! I really appreciate it.
 
Almost any other brand.

Crown, EV, QSC, etc.

As posted on an other chat board I visit...

"The only thing Behringer will ever make that doesn't suck, is a vacuum cleaner."
 
Tip 1 - I agree with Bill's tip!

Tip 2 - Leave out the side-wall speakers, they are not needed in such a shallow space and will do more harm than good. Use the money saved on these speakers to invest in more needy areas.

Brad (museav), you and I were working for TI at the same time. In '95 I was doing freelance installation work for TI. We installed smart A/V and distance learning systems in 20 classrooms and 1 lecture hall at Middle Tennessee State University's new (at the time) Business and Aerospace building. I believe I was working for a Gary Cornstubble and with an installer named John ... somebody...

Regards,
Mark
 
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Yeah, rethink that Behringer power amp. If it were me, the first place I'd look is Crown's old Micro-Tech series. Reliable, reasonably easy to find used for not a lot of money, and you can work on the things if you have to.

Behringer seem to have a problem with the parts of things that are under the highest stress (power supplies, for example), and a power amp has a lot of high-stress parts inside it.
 
As posted on an other chat board I visit...

"The only thing Behringer will ever make that doesn't suck, is a vacuum cleaner."
Or to quote a colleague of mine:
"Living in a Behringer world isn't worth anyone's time."
 

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