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Completely Random Question

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by gafftapegreenia, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    I was in our local industrial lighting supplier the other day buying some switches and edison plugs, and I still want to know, is there any difference between a ceramic Yellow A19 lamp and a Bug Light Yellow A19 lamp. I always just thought it was the packaging.
     
  2. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Oh' good question.
     
  3. DarSax

    DarSax Active Member

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    either ship is stepping back to let someone else answer the question, pming you......



    .....or I bet satan is bloody cold right now. :p
     
  4. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    So does anyone have an answer, cause I'm still not sure. I think I'll have to go pick up a pack tomorrow and do a side-by-side comparison.
     
  5. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Please do - my building is way too lit and I have lots of other things to work on at the moment.

    Here is my answer in me not knowing for sure and gaining some time to find out... Don't know but am still working on that answer. Stop reading now cuz I'm musing in this and the next post.

    Contacted a some sources about this question - it is a really good question in that I often get bug light lamps back from tours. One would assume that even if in a stadium concert, that given the rest of the lights in use, a bug light lamp will be of limited use - so why are they buying bug light lamps if not out of intent for a yellow lamp? Than again if one is using it as a yellow lamp, is it really a yellow bug light lamp or more one that’s just blocking out certain parts of the spectrum of light or heat in the light waves which attracts bugs? Why pay extra for a bug light lamp than?

    A question, is a mosquito more attracted to light/heat or smell? Will a bug light or bug zapper - below have an effect on them the same as the errant moth?

    It is a very curious question the more one looks into it. In the same range of question that should come up is if a black light party bulb is just a transparent blue lamp that’s just a bit darker or if it boosts the UV range or at least blocks most but the blue to UV range of light? Incandescent black light lamps due to the nature of the range of radiation from incandescent source a are already discounted as being fairly useless, perhaps in the same way, a bug light lamp is also than.

    So again, I contacted a manufacturer rep. that sells such lamps first. He must have been having a bad day or something (later I was told it’s the end of the month and something about quotas.)
    Is there a difference in say a internal frosted yellow lamp and a bug lamp

    “Not a clue - I suppose there is so it can attract or keep bugs away
    How many do you want to order?”

    Thus the manufacturer was less than interested in a curious thing about lamps they make. Might get back to me later on them in sending such a question up the chain of command or to that department, but since it was just an off the cuff non-official need to know type of thing, he only had a really important but un-intended factor in this theory of bug lamp design. Is it attracting or repelling? This given the incandescent bug lamp does not repel, it’s invisible to them but still, if one wants to know why it’s invisible to them, one should look into what makes it invisible. That means what lamps are used in bug zappers. What about such lamps attracts bugs?

    Theory being that if you reverse what attracts, you now have a lamp that does not attract. From my notes:
    Black light ( /BL) lamps are commonly used in “bug Zappers”, they produce a long wavelength UVA radiation in the range of 350 to 400 nanometers. Visible energy in the 400 to 420 nanometer range is also emitted, giving the lamps a strong blue color when operated. G.E. Lighting Spectrum , 9200 Catalog, General Electric 1993 “Principles of Lighting”

    The GE Spectrum catalog was one amazing catalog - saved our copy from the dumpster.

    So in theory, if there is a coating on the lamp, it’s blocking the 350 to 420nm range of light both invisible and visible. This (see the second post) is troublesome in having a full CRI of light output from the lamp, yet the bug light lamps listed are 100CRI. One would think that if you are blocking out some light, it won’t have a full spectrum of light.

    As a very important question than comes, something that’s blocking part of the spectrum is only blocking that part of the spectrum. Instead of yellow light coming out of the lamp in coloring all about it yellow, it should be for the most part a white light in all looking for the most part normal just not much in the blue range of light.

    Get the difference I’m thinking? A yellow lamp would be as if a yellow gel were put in front of it - a yellow light. A bug light if it’s blocking a certain color and wavelength than would still tend to send thru the rest of the wavelength.

    That’s an important difference. Put a bug light lamp into say a A-Lamp type cyc light or foot light, even stringers over the audience and potentially it won’t be a yellow light you intended. Hard enough to color balance with transmission levels, but a bug light lamp potentially if it’s not rally much of a yellow lamp would cause further problems. Attempt to do a hot dog sign with say 60w red for catchup and 40w yellow for mustard and you won’t have the desired effect.


    Another supplier did share interest into this curious question. He knows some engineers and others to ask. It’s being further looked into as to being a good question. Is it a yellow lamp or a bug lamp? Once I find out if it’s a modified and blocking lamp, or just a yellow lamp, I’ll let you know. Otherwise in second post is my research into it and notes on another really good book on lamps which costs nothing to read.
     
  6. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    GE seemingly has removed the A-19 bug lights from their web. This I would assume to be the one we are discussing and the brand normally seen.

    Still on the PAR 38 HIR, it notes “a special coating that makes light invisible to bugs, so they stay away.”

    Also a specification of yellow finish, and a more rugged lamp for environment extremes.

    Phillips still offers a classic bug light on the website - just takes an advanced search to find it.
    “Yellow light that is emitted does not attract insects. For use in protective outdoor fixtures or in enclosed porches.”
    Same yellow finish and as above a theorized to be more of a rough service lamp.

    On the Phillips lamp, it’s noted that no luminous output or even lamp life is specified.... suppose stuff like that don’t matter. Kind of hard to compare/contrast a bug light with a yellow lamp short of any data. The GE specs didn’t matter given it was a PAR not a 100w A-19 bug light lamp. If I check an old GE catalog I’m sure I could pull them up - if any but for now, on with the research.

    Onto Osram/Sylvania.

    Same basic 100w/120v bug light as Phillips sells and GE at least used to and probably still does.

    Aluminum base which is more info than the others note but not a lamp base material normally associated with a outdoor lamp - brass normally I thought.

    We have a color temperature specified 2,850̊K = something you won’t normally find specified on a colored lamp such as our yellow lamp.
    Lamp finish is yellow

    Curious that the CRI is 100, my suspicions will have been a little less.

    Lamp life 1,000hr not great, cc-8 filament which is good.

    No luminous output stated. See below for the further documentation of the bug light lamp which makes this website - once you get to the correct section of it, very useful.

    First a side line onto the yellow non-bug light lamp. Osram while on the website doesn’t offer a 100w version - that’s a GE thing. Still in general description it that the inside frost - yellow lamp is also a bug light. “Incandescent A19 Bulb Shape Yellow Bug Light Medium Aluminum Base 60 Watt 130 Volt Retail Pack 24 Bulbs Per Case 2 bulbs Per Package.”

    Very curious that the yellow lamp while not listed as a bug light lamp under the description is a bug light lamp. Is the blue lamp than a UV lamp, or perhaps red lamp also a bug light lamp?

    Same color temperature and CRI. Same base type and filament type. Same finish and same lack of lamp life and luminous output listed. Really, in spec, other than 60w instead of 100w, it’s the exact same specification between a “Yellow” lamp and a “Bug Light” lamp. Family brand name is also bug light. I’m thinking this is a typo on Osram’s part.

    Let’s head back to GE for the colored yellow lamp. Websites stink at times.... No, we don’t want the transparent yellow “Party Bulb...” Nor a fluorescent lamp. Gee, I’m lost in knowing a lamp exists yet can’t find it on the easy to find website. I’ll do an advanced search for the 100w A-19 version ... down to 168 lamps... down to 7... must be discontinued or not on the website - hard to tell when they remove discontinued lamps while not always listing all lamps. Short of looking up the part number such as 41291for a 100A/Y that no longer exists at least on the website... you out of luck. Time to try the 60w version... 60w don’t exist either. Can hold a lamp in one’s hand, yet it don’t exist. Now giving up on the GE website after doing a further search for the A-21 version.


    Back to the Osram/Sylvania website to the really useful info - the further readings.
    Lots of documents on the technology of this lamp including “Entertaining with Light” where it says “Not to be confused with bug light “zappers”, these lights are actually designed to deter bugs by giving off a light that does not attract them.” “Incandescent Specialty Lighting” also says the same basic thing.

    Ever read a MSDS on a A-Lamp? Really interesting.


    Real meat is in their free PDF Engineering Bulletin “Incandescent Technology.” This one only 11 pages but still a must read. All you ever wanted to know about a lamp and more than Ship knows or at least expresses - also in a easier to read format. Like their “low voltage halogen...” and other manuals, it’s the nuts and bolts.

    http://dafnwebpd.sylvania.com/os_fi...dth=600&hgth=450&Desc=Incandescent Technology

    Note: it’s an “inert gas” not a noble gas as an important term for those doing the figuring of what makes up a halogen or incandescent lamp in gas. Also gets into stuff like “osmium”. “Tungsten has the lowest vapor pressure at elevated temperaturs and the highest melting point (3,655̊K) of all metals. This combination of properties is desirable since low evaporation rates premit extended filament life while high filament temperatures result in high lumen outputs and efficacies (LPW.) Relatively, tungsten wire has great strength and is very durable when operated near its melting point. The variation of lumen output and efficacy with filament temperature is shown in Figure 2.”

    Test question... what’s osmium and why is it important in lamp technology?

    From this paragraph, we learn that the higher the color temperature of the filament - or closer to it’s melting pint - a specified color temperature, the more luminous output and efficiency in lumens per watt, but less lamp life. Halogen lamps that can operate at a higher temperature due to replentishing are more energy efficient. Xenon lamps such as the EVC that operate right near the melting point are the most efficient but won’t even with the halogen effect assumed to also be a part of the lamp, have a long lamp life unless you lower the output/color temperature.

    The Fig.3 drawing of the difference between a type c and a cc filament better explains the “coiled coil” filament concept better than any other I’m aware of.


    Also following other discussions about the glass making up a bulb, page 6 has the expiation of Soda Lime (soft) glass, HRG/Borosil, Pyrex, Fused Quartz (as different than Pyrex and I believe a GE/Corning product) and Hard Glass.

    Important note about a 35% loss in efficiency by way of using “daylight” lamps such as say a “Reveal” by GE or similar from all brands you won’t read in the advertisement. This given that there might be other energy efficiency boosts to the lamp design to compensate in use.

    Details about Krypton and other gas fillers - what they do - say the purpose of nitrogen, and corrects a misconception about bromine gas filler I had in thinking it one of the inert gasses, much less it’s extent in a halogen lamp as the wattage goes up over that of iodine.

    First I have ever heard of the concept of “Water Cycle.”


    Less than 5% of the lamp’s output is in the 350 to 420nm range - but it is there. If it's there, perhaps the errent Moth in attempting to fly to the Sun and find the fire spirit is seeking out not the light but the heat. Than again it could just be the light of a certain blue/white instead of amber white coloring.

    Do moths get attracted to fluorescent lamps? Just a side thought. In changing lamps to a ceiling fixture, one will often see flys inside a reflector, but never a night time moth. Do flys and Moths have a seperate spectrum of light they are attracted to? Mosquetos smell blood but bug zappers in theory also get them.... Lots of science questions here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2007
  7. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Well, I found this on GE's website:
    5. How does the Yellow Bug-Lite Work?

    Insects and humans have different visual perceptions. This allows for people to have better control of nocturnal insect nuisances by adjusting the color of lighting.

    The human visual system is activated by radiant energy in the color range from deep blue to dark red, which we call light. The vision of flying insects, however, is shifted away from long-wavelength red toward the shorter blue and near ultraviolet (black light) wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum. Sources which radiate ultraviolet energy and blue light are most attractive to flying insects, while those with a deficiency of ultraviolet and blue are less attractive. Insects see black light fluorescent, mercury, and metal halide best. Lamps which insects have a difficult time seeing include incandescent, high-pressure sodium, and bug light incandescent (yellow).
     
  8. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Wandering thought hijack...

    Why couldn't you put a fresnel lens on the front of an elipsoidal reflector with an HPL lamp? (Not me personally but if ETC redesigned an S4 with a fresnel out front). I mean as long as you are careful about where the lens is placed in relation to the focus point of the reflector it seems like it could be done. Or perhaps instead of a fresnel lens putting some sort of frosted lens out at the front (like the Selecon PC lens).

    I know there is a lot of physics involved. But to simplify the whole thing, it seems like once you have all the light collected and going in generally the same direction there's no reason you couldn't send it through a fresnel and get some of it to focus and some to have a nice soft edge to it.
     
  9. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    I guess it would work, but I think physical size might be an issue. Also, how would you change the degree spread?
     
  10. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    If there's just one fresnel lens in the tube, it should spread or focus depending on how close the lens is to the focal point of light that the ellipsoidal reflector is creating.

    Oh and as long as we are designing a super fresnel, can't we design shutters on the end of the fresnel after the lens... Yeah that's essentially what barn doors are, but can't we do something more compact that's right there in the color frame slot.

    Edit... and as for size just make them larger around more like an old 8" Altman 360
     
  11. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    My main question that lingers I don’t think really answered yet is if there is a difference between a yellow bug light lamp in manufacture to a yellow say inside frost yellow lamp.

    Note, not the yellow transparent yellow party bulbs as a totally different type.

    Would the yellow or perhaps even a amber or red inside or outside frost lamp work for all intensive purposes as well in all ways as the bug light? Or is the bug light blocking certain wavelengths but for the most part still providing a as it were white light? One might think that in a design sense, it would be better to block but still give off a more natural light. Or is the bug light just a yellow lamp that’s constructed slightly more rugged for outdoor use?

    More important for stage use, the bug light is said to be yellow, but is it yellow in coloring people yellow as per a gel, or just blocking what wavelengths bugs don’t see which would not in the end be just a yellow colored light coming out of the lamp. The lamp coating might appear to be yellow but what is permitted to pass thru the lamp could be a lot more.

    I find this question very curious thus by way of lamp construction and something not defined.

    If I get time I’ll look at doing a play test myself but its’ curious overall for me. Hopefully a friend that’s also asking around will also find some more info. Beyond that, totally open question further in something I don’t know.

    On the Leko to Fresnel conversion as opposed to Fresnel to PC question... different optically and reflector in a Leko. Give a shot - it will be different but not a Fresnel either my belief would be.
     
  12. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    The results of my head-to-head test are nearly complete. Here's what I've looked at so far: Missing is the 25 watt GE ceramic yellow lamp, I'll be picking that lamp up tomorrow. I'll try and use a ROSCO # when I can, of course, it will be comparing the color of the lamp to the color of the gel on the paper, not in front of a light source, since the lamps I compared are ceramic, and gel is not. Additionally I looked at each lamp through a pair of spectrum analysis glasses, which are plastic lens, paper frame glasses that act as prisms. Think 3D glasses but instead they break up the visible spectrum of a light source.


    Lamps so far compared:

    Philips 60W Bug Light Yellow

    GE 60W Bug Light Yellow

    ABCO 60W Bug Lite Yellow

    S14 11W Yellow

    So how did they stack up:

    S14: A more flourescent yellow, think R12. Under the glasses, had the highest definition between the red-yellow-green spectrum. Little to no visible blue-violet. Very even yellow spectrum, and the most green and red spectrum of all lamps compared.

    Philips: "True yellow", about an R14. Red-yellow-green spectrum was comparable to the S14, but a little more blurred, with less red and green spectrum.


    ABCO: A "pastel yellow", something like R310 on Frost. Red-yellow-green spectrum was comparable to the Philips, but had a slightly visible blue spectrum. Interestingly, the ABCO had the least amount of red spectrum of all the lamps I have compared so far.

    GE: More of an orange-yellow, think R08. Compared to the other lamps, was not really a yellow, but not exactly sure how to describe it. The Red-yellow-green spectrum was comparable to the Philips, but the yellow field was very uneven. More red spectrum than the ABCO. Had a clearly visible blue-violet spectrum, the most of any lamps compared. Thus, this lamp put out the most "white" light of all lamps.

    Results thus far:
    In ranking from most yellow to least
    1) S14
    2)Philips
    3)ABCO
    4)GE Bug

    MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!!
    The GE BUG LITE is not a ceramic yellow A19, Bug Yellow really is a different color. I will be able to confirm this tomorrow when I can compare it to a GE Ceramic Yellow A19. Stay tuned. Pics to follow. I will do a more complete report when all lamp results are in.

    If the goal is to block the infrared-red spectrum, it seems the ABCO has so far done the best job, ahead of GE's special Bug Yellow. Of course, I can't see infrared, and lack the proper goggles, but I might have a friend who can help me out.

    So ship, seems there is a difference after all, I'm just not able to offer clear definitons-right now.

    I'm starting to gain a rather nice collection of yellow medium base lamps-maybe I can get paid for this oneday, or at least use it for a nice research paper in college.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Yep, could do quite the research paper - you now have some research that when studied next to the technical specs of the lamps and other research would get you an extra credit A as long as it's written up well enough.

    Been kind of thinking of late. My Fulchs 1929 lighting book is the exact as my 1959 version. I should do a contest for who should get the 1959 version.

    Think instead based upon your study that you should get it. PM me with your address and it will be on the way. Now there is a great book on lighting.

    For a term paper in future research to make it useful, you would at very least need a light meter that could give you a quantitive analysis of the light given off by the lamps, this if not some form of light spectrum analysis program that your physics lab at college might be able to make available to you for such a research paper.

    With the book for this budding research paper, I'll send you other types of red/yellow/bug light lamps also so as to broaden your research base some.

    Good simple start to a research paper on the other hand - is there a difference between bug light lamps and yellow inside frost lamps. (The "ceramic" part is a detail that is not universal as it more describes a type of lamp dip on outside frost lamps.)

    Still writing up what you have studied and found so far should as a theory get you some extra credit in science class where you are now. Further research in college at very least would get you extra credit if not in an advanced lighting class full credit for a research paper.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  14. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Good stuff. It's always easy to justify being a little obsessive about your light bulbs (LAMPS! LAMPS!) when you can say its for a grade. This research is far from over.
     
  15. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    I had an "in the field" test of the Philips Bug Yellow lamp today. I'm currently running a show outside in a park. Tech is set up under one of those white pop-up tents. For the past few nights we had been using a clip light with blue gel. Two nights ago it was cool with a breeze, and the light was attracting alot of bug. Last night was very humid and still, but the yellow 'bug bulb' did a great job of attracting fewer bugs. Seems these things actually do work to some degree.
     

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