Control of 0-10v Architectural LED can lights

I've got another question about 0-10v dimming. The problem is the typical architectural style of 0-10 that the drivers source current for the dimmer / control to sink where zero on the control equals minimum brightness of the can lights, but only when power is switched off do the lights really go dark/off.
Specifically, there are some can lights that we need to change control from the architectural dimmers over to DMX control. They are wired with each can has an individual 0-10v line already home run to it, however the 120v power is common to all. We already have DMX to 0-10v converters working for each (we can individually control the brightness of each can - minimum to maximum), but to get them to go dark/off we would need a relay to cut power to the string of cans. Therefore to make one go dark (interrupt power), all would go dark. Does anyone know of a different LED driver that we could swap out the existing drivers that would actually go dark on 'zero' instead of 'minimum on brightness'? Or a relay that could be installed at every can that would watch the 0-10 and disconnect power when 'zero' is controlled to actually make it dark?

Am I making any sense at all?

Thanks,
Robert Engel
 
I've got another question about 0-10v dimming. The problem is the typical architectural style of 0-10 that the drivers source current for the dimmer / control to sink where zero on the control equals minimum brightness of the can lights, but only when power is switched off do the lights really go dark/off.
Specifically, there are some can lights that we need to change control from the architectural dimmers over to DMX control. They are wired with each can has an individual 0-10v line already home run to it, however the 120v power is common to all. We already have DMX to 0-10v converters working for each (we can individually control the brightness of each can - minimum to maximum), but to get them to go dark/off we would need a relay to cut power to the string of cans. Therefore to make one go dark (interrupt power), all would go dark. Does anyone know of a different LED driver that we could swap out the existing drivers that would actually go dark on 'zero' instead of 'minimum on brightness'? Or a relay that could be installed at every can that would watch the 0-10 and disconnect power when 'zero' is controlled to actually make it dark?

Am I making any sense at all?

Thanks,
Robert Engel
Calling @jfleenor
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
You asked for drivers and there are many. Look for "Fade to Black" in the description. Lutron, Acuity, Eldoled are major manufacturers. Note however that replacing the drivers will be a lot of work and likely void any warranty and UL listing. Those may impact insurance as well.

Otherwise you'll need a 0-10v relay at each fixture (or group), a DMX to 0-10v converter, and some way to program the two together.

The Foundry dimmers mentioned would work if you can replace the control wire with DMX cable. (or move to wireless DMX, not recommended for house lights)
 
The existing can lights are controlled by a dimmer similar to a Lutron Diva DVSTV.
Line voltage comes into the switch, which creates the 'switched hot' and the 0-10v control.
We've already converted the 0-10v control over from those switches to an existing DMX-0-10v box which works a treat, however, it can't switch the power off to make them dark aka off.

Replacing the drivers is not a problem - my day job is electrical contractor, so that's right up our alley. I tried looking at the Lutron site looking for 'Fade to Black' with 0-10 and LED driver and I'm having a hard time. It was always trying to ignore 0-10 and do one of their digital controls or forward/reverse phase dimming. I'll try looking into Acuity next. I'm not sure off the top of my head what the values of the driver are that I need, but methinks it's 1000mA constant current.
 
EldoLED drivers will be your best bet. However it is very hard to buy the drivers direct, as they only sell to direct fixture manufacturers, except for a few loopholes. Be prepared to pay as much for the driver as a new fixture. You'll need to get the right type of driver for the LED array/COB in the fixtures you have, either Constant Voltage or Constant Current, and sized for the load of course.

Look for 0.1% dimming or 1% dimming, as that tends to be the wording that is most commonly seen. You pay more for lower dimming rate drivers.
 
EldoLED drivers will be your best bet. However it is very hard to buy the drivers direct, as they only sell to direct fixture manufacturers, except for a few loopholes.

One reason for this is that you need a special USB adapter and software in order to configure the drivers. One model of their driver will cover a range of LED arrays so it needs to be tuned to match the specific array in the fixture. These tools are supposed to be limited to just technicians and manufacturers (according to EldoLED).

The other reason is what Rick mentioned: the UL listing for the fixture includes a specific driver or set of driver options. Swapping the driver (regardless of your personal qualifications) to something that's not in the UL file for the fixture will void the UL listing. With only a very few exceptions, the drivers are not UL listed by themselves for this sort of retrofit. Instead, they're in the category of recognized components that can then be listed as part of a complete fixture assembly.

For something in my home, I wouldn't think twice about that since I have enough confidence in my electrical/electronic abilities to know I won't burn the place down. However, there's a whole different level of liability and acceptable risk when doing this sort of thing in a commercial building. It's worth checking in with your insurance company before spending a lot of money and time. If they discover a problem after it's all in, then the remedies are either to tear it out and start over, or to pay for a site listing--which is a very expensive pursuit.

All that said, it sounds like you're almost there already without replacing any drivers or fixtures. If instead you replace your DMX to 0-10V controller with Unison Foundry controllers installed at the old switch locations (or wherever makes the most sense) and run DMX to them, then you have the combined power and 0-10V control that you need.
 
I've got another question about 0-10v dimming. The problem is the typical architectural style of 0-10 that the drivers source current for the dimmer / control to sink where zero on the control equals minimum brightness of the can lights, but only when power is switched off do the lights really go dark/off.
Specifically, there are some can lights that we need to change control from the architectural dimmers over to DMX control. They are wired with each can has an individual 0-10v line already home run to it, however the 120v power is common to all. We already have DMX to 0-10v converters working for each (we can individually control the brightness of each can - minimum to maximum), but to get them to go dark/off we would need a relay to cut power to the string of cans. Therefore to make one go dark (interrupt power), all would go dark. Does anyone know of a different LED driver that we could swap out the existing drivers that would actually go dark on 'zero' instead of 'minimum on brightness'? Or a relay that could be installed at every can that would watch the 0-10 and disconnect power when 'zero' is controlled to actually make it dark?

Am I making any sense at all?

Thanks,
Robert Engel
Do ghe current drivers have a pre-heat ? If so you might be able. to turn down the pre-heat potentiometer
 
One reason for this is that you need a special USB adapter and software in order to configure the drivers. One model of their driver will cover a range of LED arrays so it needs to be tuned to match the specific array in the fixture. These tools are supposed to be limited to just technicians and manufacturers (according to EldoLED).

The other reason is what Rick mentioned: the UL listing for the fixture includes a specific driver or set of driver options. Swapping the driver (regardless of your personal qualifications) to something that's not in the UL file for the fixture will void the UL listing. With only a very few exceptions, the drivers are not UL listed by themselves for this sort of retrofit. Instead, they're in the category of recognized components that can then be listed as part of a complete fixture assembly.

For something in my home, I wouldn't think twice about that since I have enough confidence in my electrical/electronic abilities to know I won't burn the place down. However, there's a whole different level of liability and acceptable risk when doing this sort of thing in a commercial building. It's worth checking in with your insurance company before spending a lot of money and time. If they discover a problem after it's all in, then the remedies are either to tear it out and start over, or to pay for a site listing--which is a very expensive pursuit.

All that said, it sounds like you're almost there already without replacing any drivers or fixtures. If instead you replace your DMX to 0-10V controller with Unison Foundry controllers installed at the old switch locations (or wherever makes the most sense) and run DMX to them, then you have the combined power and 0-10V control that you need.

For sure. If you're at the point of replacing just the driver in a CSA/UL listed product, you might as well buy a new can.

I've always gotten my custom fixtures special inspected, which isn't super expensive if your already down the custom fixture path.
 
Just an update:
What a fun rabbit hole to fall down into research... UL Certified, UL Listed, UL Product iQ, UL 8750, UL Class P - all I was missing was cake of different sizes.
All said and done, after a short conversation with the AHJ, showing the replacement driver with more and better listings that the ones (more than one different driver manufacturer) originally installed, the new drivers completely solve the problem. Dim-to-Off tuning was the ticket. Even a MUCH better dimming curve since it could be tuned to better match light output. The tuning is done by NFC and an app from your standard pocket supercomputer. Another great tune - adjusting the min/max for 1-10 control voltage. Now, one 'tick' up on the control, the lights go from OFF to the lowest brightness, one tick back down they actually 'fade' out instead if popping due to the decay of the phosphor glow in the COB.
No removing or demolishing any of the building was necessary.
 

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