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Controlling a old dimmer.

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by Stoldal, Jan 1, 2008.

  1. Stoldal

    Stoldal Active Member

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    At the high school where I help out, we have 5 old dimmer packs. I cant remember off the top of my head but i think that they where made by a company called "technical theatre", I will check next time i go in. Each dimmer pack has 6 channels. It is a analog dimmer and the control cable uses Cinch Jones Connectors. So my question is where can i get a analog to DMX converter that uses cinch Jones connectors for the analog connection.

    Thanks!!
     
  2. Footer

    Footer Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

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    Dove systems makes a DMX to 10v converter, as well as Doug Fleenor. I doubt you will be able to get one with the connector already on it because most installers did not follow a defacto standard when doing the pin outs, and inside that each lighting company used a different standard. You will have to hard wire it in or put your own connector on. http://www.dfd.com/24anl.html
     
  3. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Mstoldal, the name you're trying to recall is most likely TTI-Theatre Techniques, Inc. They made workable and useful dimmers and consoles, on par with EDI, until going under the the late '80s/early '90s. As Footer said, Fleenor makes a 24 channel version that outputs via a DB-25 connector. That means you'd have to lose 6 dimmers, which I'm sure you don't want.

    If you're not opposed to used equipment, here's a link to an ETC 32 ch. Response Box, that outputs on a 36pin Centronics connector, perfect for your needs, and for $85! Since you're near me, I could help you wire it if needed.

    I also suggest searching PRG, usedlighting.com, Solaris Network, and GearSource, if in the market for any used gear.

    And by the way, you want a "DMX to Analog" converter, not the other way 'round.
     
  4. JD

    JD Well-Known Member

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    Maybe TTI ? (Theater Techniques Inc) Was big back in the 70's and 80's. Packs were blue in color. Most were 3.6 x 6 and had silver sand fuses in addition to breakers. They were really great packs! If they are, 0-10 is correct. Pin out should be simple, but I think there is a power pin mixed in there.

    Oops! While I was off looking for a picture, Derek beat me to it! Couldn't find any... Strange, they were popular. Anyway, probably worth the converter.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2008
  5. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    TTI's also came as 2400 watts per dimmer, at least mine were. although I do recall some 3.6's and 7.2kw's as well .

    The 10 pin Cinch-Jones connector was wired as control 1 - pin 1, control 2 on pin 2 etc... thru pin 6, then ground on pin 10.

    A good source for convertors and cable adapters is Litetrol Service in Hicksville, NY - Steve Short, 516 681-5288. He'll know exactly what you got and what you need and can fix anything that's broke.

    SB
     
  6. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    SteveB, would you remember offhand if the KliegPac 9 followed the same pin-out? I want to think not, as the console must get power from the rack somehow, IIRC. So maybe it used a 12pin CJ? Knowing Kliegl, I'm sure it was something non-standard.:)

    Website and picture (probably) of OP's dimmer pack. Look quickly, as the picture cycles between TTI-6pack, Kliegl R73 module, some firing cards I don't recognize, and a Skirpan module.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  7. Stoldal

    Stoldal Active Member

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    Cool, thanks for the quick help. I think that you guys know what my dimmers are. They are TTI, blue, 2400watts x 6
    That first picture that comes up look like the dimmer packs that we use, the only differance is mine are blue. Now that I think about it, the most i will need and can use at a time is four dimmer packs. That is due to the fact that our gym/theatre only has 400amp(120v)/200amp(240) that can be used for light. So 24 channels would work out get.

    I am kinda looking for something that is good but not over costly. We are building a theatre right now, and we will not need to use these dimmer packs that much after it is built.

    I think that the best thing for me to do is get the ETC 32 ch. Response Box. That should work get for what i need. And i never know one day i may need those extra channels.

    My question now is, how do i get the analog output of the ETC 32 ch. Response Box to cinch jones connector. Is it just a simple wiring up some cinch jones connector up right?

    Thanks for you help!!
     
  8. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Mstoldal, PM me privately and I'll talk you through it. I even have the Centronics connector you need, and would be glad to help, as you're local.
     
  9. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    I only used the Pac9 system on 2 occasions (it was nice, but odd) and never needed to muck with control wiring. Cannot recall where control head power came from. I did spend a lot of time making assorted connectors for stuff to either control TTI dimmers or to use a TTI controller with Strand, so remember the pin config's.

    Here's what Google came up with about Kliegl:

    http://www.klieglbros.com/service/kliegpac9/kp9manual.htm

    http://www.klieglbros.com/kliegl_parts__service.htm

    I also recall that a former Kliegl service tech. - actually for a time, the ONLY Kliegl service tech support, was a great guy named Harry Nash. I recall that he started his own service for Kliegl after they went kaput, but cannot find him now on Google. Maybe somebody else here remembers. Would not surprise me if he gave it up and retired to Florida.

    SB
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2008
  10. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    Remember that the typical code requirement is that you do not overload with too much a load. You do not have to add up the quantity of 20 amp circuits to fit into 400 amps. You can use demand load, which is the total wattages of the fixtures times 120 volts. A typical ETC Sensor 96x2.4kw dimmer rack fits onto a 400 amp, 3 phase service. If you have 2 phases (I think that's what you were stating), you would be comfortable with 64x2.4kw dimmers, as example.

    SB
     
  11. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Thanks, [user]SteveB[/user]! For Kliegl Service/Repair, the other person with whom I have dealt, and whom is listed in [user]SteveB[/user]'s second link, is Horst (first name):

    Dimmer Performance Electronics
    326 Sherwood Drive
    Paramus, NJ 07652
    Tel.# (201)262-7299
    Fax # (201)262-0444
    Owner/Horst Emmert
     
  12. Stoldal

    Stoldal Active Member

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    Sorry it took so long for me to reply. Thanks, with the help that you guys gave me i should have no problem controlling the TTI dimmers.
    To explain what kinda power i have in the gym. We have 4 50amp/240v outlets. So all the power is not coming from one location. I don't know if there would be any reason of renting new Dimmer packs then using the old TTI Dimmer packs. Most 1000w Par 64 are connected to the dimmers.
    The Problem that i am facing is for our biggest production i am running out of power. I need to power 40 1000w Pars, 4 Cyberlights CX, and 20 LED lights. If i have done me math right i am about 58 Amps short of having enough to power everything. Note that the Cyberlights run on 208
     

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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2008
  13. cutlunch

    cutlunch Active Member

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    I haven't done the math but I take it you worked it out on everything being on full at the same time?
    I have been in the same boat but so long as you tell the students never to bring every light up to full you should be able to get a away with it.
    For example unless you are using all Par 64's with just one colour then generally they shouldn't be on full all the time.
    It is just a matter of balancing the load if the power supply have current meters then it is easier. But even if you don't and you can find out what circuit supplies which dimmers you can spread the load across the different packs. It sounds like you might have this info already but if not talk to the schools electrical contractor.
    Failing this if the circuit breakers are at least labelled for lighting by turning turning them off one at time you can get an idea of which controls which dimmer. I take it from your plug diagram that each dimmer has 3 channels per 120v leg that comes in from the plug. Someone who has used these packs may correct me. If you have to do the circuit breaker test make sure the dimmers are only lightly loaded.
    The inital patch up takes a while but since you have a DMX board you can then softpatch the lights into a more sensible order for plotting.
    Another thing to think about is using PAR 64's the best thing for the show or should you hire in other lights such as more leko's. My question only really applies if you are using some of the PAR 64's as area lighting as opposed to just using them for colour washes. Because as you know you can get lower wattage lights that are better for the area lighting then the Par 64's which help cut your power load.
    How far off is the schools new theatre? If it is within the next year or so and the lighting rig hasn't been set set in stone you might like to contact some local suppliers. Ask them if they can provide a few lights from their range so you can do real life comparisons. They may say no but it can't to hurt to ask. You could sweeten the deal by a free add in the program. If they come to the party you might also be able to invite other teachers/technicians from local schools for a showcase of their product. Obviously you'll have to get your school's permission. I have done a school show where a lighting manufacturer's products made the difference between having enough lights and not enough. They also threw in the loan of one of the follow spot's they made. This was dealing direct with the actual lighting manufacturer as opposed to one of their suppliers.
    My idea might be more trouble then it's worth.
     
  14. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    First off, if that picture is of the connectors you have available you have no ground, the NEMA 10-50 is a HOT-HOT-NEUTRAL configuration NOT HOT-HOT-GROUND as in your picture. This is generally not appropriate for theatrical use. You really need to have a ground. I would be wary of using your old dimmers if they are wired with that configuration with no ground. I also wouldn't hook up intelligent gear to non-grounded power.

    Typical wiring of this connector is 208v "split phase" as they were designed to power things like clothes dryers and electric ranges. This allowed devices like built in clocks and timers to run on the 120v legs.

    While you are calculating amperage and if you are going to go ahead and use these connectors you should make sure that they actually are connected to 50A breakers. If they are, then you are correct in that you get 50A per phase on each connector. So you say you have 4 connectors which give a theoretical 400A total. I don't know what LED fixtures you are using (I assume you mean LED and not LCD), but by my math, the PARs and Cyberlights take 358.53A which leaves you about 40A for the LEDs. Remember though that things like the LEDs can be powered off standard edison sockets.
     
  15. Stoldal

    Stoldal Active Member

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    Ya the Math that i have do is for when all the lights are on at full.

    The power supplys dont have current meters. They are old. You are correct in thinking that each leg of the plug powers 3 channels in the dimmer. I talked to the owner of the dimmers. Long story but the dimmer packs are not owned by the school. The are owned by one of the staff members. He owned a A/v company. He helps me a lot in the "old school lighting" but he said that he does not want to use DMX.

    I made a typo in my post
    The are LED lights. I am planing to use those for the color washes.

    The theatre is "planed" to be finished in under a year. That why i was wondering of i should rent some newer dimmers, or just use the TTI dimmers that i have untill the theatre is finished being built. I cant wait till the theatre is done.
     
  16. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    Well you need to be DMX capable to run your LED fixtures and Cyberlights, so you might as well get/rent a D/A converter to run the TTI dimmers as opposed to running two consoles.
     
  17. Stoldal

    Stoldal Active Member

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    I have a DMX board. A strand 200, it will work well for the Dimmers and the LED lights. And i have the lightwave Cyberlight CX controler that High End Systems makes for the cyberlights.

    I have been running productions in this gym for about 4 years. I know that the breaker are 50amp. The outlets where put in for light, not to run a dryer or range, so i will check to see what the outlets are wired. I was told that there where two hot legs and one ground.

    I should be ok with power now that i think about it.
     
  18. STEVETERRY

    STEVETERRY Well-Known Member

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    Err...signal common on pin 8.

    ST
     
  19. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that rings a bell.... it's been a while...

    SB
     

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