Control/Dimming Conventions of constructing solely LED Based facility

ibmcclain

Member
I'm currently helping a local church looking to build a new huge facility design it's lighting grid, and through some searches, found an interesting idea here and there. Maximizing the ROI for an LED lighting system by designing a system based on DMX distribution and Edison power distribution. That means you'd save a lot on installation and things like dimmers, and long term, the power bill. This could allow for more up front spending, meaning higher end LED fixtures like (Drum roll please) in the coming year, possibly an inventory of LED Source 4's and a few Right Arms. This would be perfect seeing as the church wants to take NO LOANS on the entire facility. Any thoughts?
 
If there going to be as many lights in this place as I think there will be then you're going to want a lot of DMX ties and non dimmable controlled Edison power spread all over mainly for the luxury of flexibility. I would be careful with the first batch of LED Source 4's. Yes while ETC is amazing when it comes to everything associated with making you happy after buying LED fixtures, the LED Source 4 coming out soon does not look like it has as much punch as a current 575w even with the HD optics. I am not saying that they would not be a good fit for what you're using them for but if you have a rather large space I am not sure how well it is going to perform. Not to mention the FAT price tag that will be associated with them. But if they are something you do end up buying you should post some comparison shots on here! Just my thoughts, hope this is helpful!
 
Where did you see that the led s4 doesn't have as much punch as a 575? AFAIK, the last time we've seen anything was when it was first mentioned in August at CUE, and then we didn't get any comparison.


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I was talking to a guy from a production company who was able to show me the output of the LED and then took a 575w S4 and matched the distance pretty well and while the output of the LED was not bad at all, still not quite there. Oh and these we both pictures, so no i did not get to play with the LED in person :(
 
First off, I don't care how smart you are, with a project that big you need a Theater Consultant, because you will make mistakes. Drop CB member MuseAV a private message for information on his company or ideas of how to find one in your area.

I agree 100% with the idea of using LED's for down, side, and back lighting. However it's still too early to commit 100% to LED's for front light. I would install a couple of things like ETC Smartpacks or ETC SmartBar's out over the house for your front light. Convert to all LED in a few years.
 
The actual installation and everything would be done by Barbizon, and would have consulting done by them, but I'm mainly focusing on the cost benefit of it. Seeing as its a band set up that rarely changes, sometimes a skit, and then the pastor talking. There's not much consulting needing to be done I wouldn't think.
 
There are things with code, with system design, and product choices that you will be FAR better off in the long run if you pay the money and bring in a consultant. I've been doing this for nearly 30 years and I recently went through a new theater construction project. While I was on top of most of the project and in some ways knew more than the consultant, there were many odd little details that we really needed the consultant's expertise on. I've designed and installed small systems, but I would never take on an whole building design without a consultant.

Here are the three main reasons you should hire a consultant (although there are many more):
1) You can go on the internet and read about all the different LED products but you are not an expert and you haven't seen them in person. A good consultant will have been to all the trade shows and gotten first hand experience with all the fixtures. When the consultant tells you that "fixture X" is the best product for your needs, the consultant is basing that opinion on first hand experience with a lot of fixtures and years of experience in the industry. Furthermore, the consultant has designed a lot of other church installations and has seen the results. The consultant hasn't just read the photometric data about a fixture, he's seen it hands on in a similar setting. He's gone back to the church after the system is installed and gotten feedback about how they like the product. He's learned not just what is the best product but also which products are better for different uses and locations based on hands on experience no one at your church has.

2)Barbizon is a fantastic company. I've spent a lot of money there over the years and I certainly recommend them to everyone. However that said, saying "Company X" is going to design and install the system for us is a poor idea. Why? Two reasons. 1) "Company X" is going to design a system for you based only on brands that they stock and possibly (depending on how honest the sales rep is) on products they make the most money by selling. Furthermore, if you go to them and say, design and install a system for me, where is the incentive for them to cut you the best deal? You are far better off having a consultant help you specify a complete system then shopping it around to 3 or 4 local companies and see who will give you the best deal. Knowing it's a competitive bid, they will cut their profit margin slimmer and you will save back part of the cost you pay to hire the consultant. Again, I'm not implying anything negative about Barbizon with this, they are fantastic and I strongly encourage to send them your system specs for a price quote, after the system is designed by a consultant.

3) I take it this is a new building. If yes architects are notorious for designing things for looks and not for practicality. You would not believe some of the stupid and dangerous things designed into buildings by architects who have no idea about the practical side of technical work. They think about how things will look. You need a consultant to get in and fight with the architect for you. The consultant will make sure safety and code is considered in the technical spaces (something architects miss). He'll make sure you have enough power where it needs to be, make sure that you don't hate working with the system every day forever because the space was designed to look good and practical functionality was not considered. I can't tell you how many times I sat in a design meeting with our consultant arguing with the architect about what had to change in the plans.

Again at least drop MuseAV a pm for a little side chat on what you are talking about in price. If you are going to spend say $100,000 on your lighting and sound systems doesn't it make sense to spend a few thousand more and make sure it's done correctly. A consultant is cheap insurance against bad tech.
 
We just added a few more 3W LEDs for color in our black box and they work wonderfully for color and side lighting. However, something that hasn't been mentioned that should be taken into consideration for All LED purchases. FAN noise. A few in a larger room is tolerable, and I know the more expensive the unit the less noise they make, however, for anyone on a budget considering this route, be warned. You may solve one problem and unleash another.

My .02 @ -6db

Phil
 
I wonder if they'll ever make high power LED fixtures that hook into a central ventilation system. I'm thinking something along the lines of a dust collector- when an LED system is installed, they'd install ducts above the catwalk and connect each fixture to the duct with a flexible hose. That way one large blower could be used to cool down an entire house of LED fixtures. The blower could be installed on a roof, in a basement, or in a sound-deadened room. It could either be set up to recognize the presence of a DMX signal or have it interlock with the AC power feed to the fixtures (have it start up when the fixtures receive power). A centralized ventilation system could be configured to either supply air to the fixtures or draw it away from them. The benefits of having the air supplied to a fixture would be that they wouldn't inhale dust and wouldn't need to be cleaned as often. The benefits of having air drawn away from the fixtures would be that the heat would be carried away as well- the fixtures wouldn't be adding to the load of the HVAC system.

Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I'm just a dreamer. But I always love coming up with overly complex solutions to problems.
 
I think a system like that would work better with conventional that generate lots of heat. Yes some LED's have fan's, but that's mostly for the circuit boards inside, the LED's themselves produce very little heat.
 
I think a system like that would work better with conventional that generate lots of heat. Yes some LED's have fan's, but that's mostly for the circuit boards inside, the LED's themselves produce very little heat.

I think possibly the problem is the heat inside of them requires a fan to get rid of, so to avoid the fan noise, you hook the fan up outside and run a pipe to the fixtures. I think the real problem with this is that you would really need an air chiller, a pump, and a pair of pipes, one for the supply and one for the return, so it would basically be installing a small air conditioning system except with 100-1000 places where forgetting to flip a cap could cause serious issues. Although if you want a really cool system, have the whole thing have nitrogen piped to each fixture, and vented to the low-lying fog machine.
 
Exactly. LEDs are very efficient, but to get extremely high outputs, they cram lots of 1 or 3 watt LEDs onto a single chip. It's much like the processor in your computer. Yes LEDs are efficient, but they cannot dissipate the heat they generate when the modules are that dense. Consequently, you need a heat sink and a fan.

Why do you think a chiller would be needed? Or are you like me and like to overcomplicate things? :) If the regular LED fixtures have fans that just draw from the ambient air, I would think that any airflow of lower temperature air would keep the fixtures happy. I know my little idea would probably never happen because adding all of the ducts wouldn't be something people would want to do, but I think it would work like a charm...quietly!
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But I always figured the heat from these units came from the power supplies and the circuitry running the LED's, and not the LED's themselves.
Even running 3 Watt LED's the heat generated from the LED itself is very minimal, it's all the support stuff in the housing that causes the heat. Of course a difference in LED vs. Conventional is that LED's have the circuitry where conventional's are pretty much just a lamp, some wire, and glass!
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But I always figured the heat from these units came from the power supplies and the circuitry running the LED's, and not the LED's themselves.
Even running 3 Watt LED's the heat generated from the LED itself is very minimal, it's all the support stuff in the housing that causes the heat. Of course a difference in LED vs. Conventional is that LED's have the circuitry where conventional's are pretty much just a lamp, some wire, and glass!

You've got it the wrong way around. The drive circuitry on most of those fixtures doesn't need much cooling. Most of these high power LED fixtures are rated at 100 watts. The common module for these is a 10x10 grid of 1 watt SMD LEDs. While one LED doesn't generate much heat, 100 LEDs in a module the size of a postage stamp do. Semiconductors are very sensitive to heat. Even powering the module for a few seconds without a heat sink can fry some of the LEDs.
 
Why do you think a chiller would be needed? Or are you like me and like to overcomplicate things? :)

To account for ambient air temperature on the roof of the theater, and the fact that your fan is cooling hundreds of LED units at once, not just one. I think my LN2 idea is overcomplicating things.
 
Yes LEDs do generate heat, but significantly less than an incandescent fixture. One of the big money saving advantages of designing a new all LED facility is that the HVAC system doesn't have to handle nearly as much of a load as the HVAC system for an all incandescent facility. That can mean a significant savings in HVAC operations as well as in the initial plant size.

Yet another example of how a theater consultant can help you is determining the HVAC needs for the facility created by the number and type of light fixtures you have.
 
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Second Opinions and Third Opinions of people you have actually talked to and worked with. A friend of mine works with a local university that is building a new performance space, and with what is essentially a production company taking a warehouse and creating a performance space from it. In some ways, the consultants have been great in introducing him to new products or double checking his specs. In other ways, he's had to b***h slap the consultants on budget and usability.

The consultant for the school district I sometimes work with completely missed over stage work lights in their plan for the school district's new PAC. It was a father of a former student who still works with the drama club that whispered in my ear, "why is there nothing over-stage but pipes, soft goods and a rep plot?" while I was asking the consultant why there was no lighting position over the 7 feet of stage beyond the proscenium.

Get other people in to look at things is the moral of the story.
 

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