Cooked Altman 65 fresnels, worth fixing?

ALFlag32

New Member
I have recently been approached about getting a lighting rig back in good operating shape and have discovered that all the fresnels (Altman 65's) had at some point been over-lamped with BTRs (1000w) lamps. Most work but some don't (from what I've heard), they all have significant surface finish damage and most base metalic parts have discolored (likely due to heat damage is my guess). The fixtures are mainly used as top light at full flood. I have ruled out most zoomable/smooth dimming LED options due to cost and weight (motorized line and the heavier fixtures would likely add up to too much for it). Efficiency would be nice, but they are looking mainly for returning to full functionality with major LED upgrades years down the road. It has been years since I have worked regularly with this older gear as well.

I am torn about what to recommend, I am leaning toward a fixture replacement with some sort of PAR (likely ETC EA PAR with lenses), new 65Q fresnels with HPL bases, or refurbish the old fixtures by cleaning/sanding and repainting the housing while replacing the cooked medium prefocus ceramics with the Altman HPL conversion kit. As always, budget is an issue, but so is shop time.
I am curious about folks' experiences in doing the repair, was it worth the time and parts?
Are there safety issues to consider with the housing around the yoke mount points having been cooked free of paint? (There are no holes in the wrong places)
Is changing an HPL lamp in a 65Q a headache?

Thank you for your insights!
 
The baked-off paint is super common. It's also purely cosmetic. Unless there is active rust or you expect that to be an issue, I wouldn't bother. If I lived next to the ocean, maybe then I'd concern myself about exterior surface rust.

If you do want to paint them, use high-temp only. BBQ grill paint or exhaust header paint from an autoparts. Cheaper high-temp paints such as the Rustoleum at Home Depot often cure to an unattractive chalky finish IMO, but it's still effective.

How are the reflectors? Grey (not shiny) and wilted like a flower? If so, I'd toss the fixtures (saving the lenses for some reason). Altman sells or at least sold at one time an entire reflector/socket/sled assembly, but I always found it not to be cost-effective at a price approaching a new fixture. The original socket is a P28s and if you can stomach the $25-35 ea for replacement, I say go for it as long as the reflectors are good.

I would not bother retrofitting to HPL from scratch. You have to get the LCL correct (filament centered in the reflector) as well as its forward distance from the face of the reflector. What a pain. The HPL sockets and related hardware will cost roughly as much as replacing the original P28s med. prefocus socket with roughly zero ROI aside from the convenience of stocking fewer lamp types. You would likely see an increase in lumens, and probably a slight increase in color temperature as well, but fresnels are a notoriously inefficient fixture. The BTL/BTN are pretty happy being abused used by these fixtures.

The Altman 65/Q had at least one reflector revision if I remember correctly. Many of the older hammertone brown fixtures had a small reflector dish (about 2" diameter) riveted to a flat reflective sheet. These sometimes had thermal issues where the inner dish would melt ("wilt like a flower"). The other type utilized one large reflector and these fared a bit better in my experience. Though I have also seen the former 2-piece reflectors on 65Q black series fixtures so YMMV. It doesn't really matter as long as they haven't lost their reflective qualities.
 
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Good luck sourcing P28 sockets. Osram (maybe G.E Sylvania?) once told me, about 3 years ago, they could make a batch run of sockets for me...but it had a 1k piece minimum order.
 
At this point, I wouldn't consider anything besides the HPL retrofit kit. Incandescent is widely on the way out, and if any lamp is going to hang on just a little longer, it'll be the HPL. The biggest consideration is budget. Can you afford new Source 4 PAR's? Then save youself the time and trouble and just get those. On the other hand, if every penny matters, and you're craving a restoration project, sure, fix up those 65Q's. They're venerable industry legends that no proper LD will be offended by. Paint loss doesn't matter, but if wiring is frayed, then the costs of repair start to add up.

Before deciding which way you want to take this, take a look at the current supply chain delays, and figure out what's even available. The HPL retrofit kit looks to be running around $86. A full new 65Q looks to be running a little over double the retrofit. I'm seeing the EA S4 PAR anywhere from $250-300 per.
 
At this point, I wouldn't consider anything besides the HPL retrofit kit. Incandescent is widely on the way out, and if any lamp is going to hang on just a little longer, it'll be the HPL. The biggest consideration is budget. Can you afford new Source 4 PAR's? Then save youself the time and trouble and just get those. On the other hand, if every penny matters, and you're craving a restoration project, sure, fix up those 65Q's. They're venerable industry legends that no proper LD will be offended by. Paint loss doesn't matter, but if wiring is frayed, then the costs of repair start to add up.

Before deciding which way you want to take this, take a look at the current supply chain delays, and figure out what's even available. The HPL retrofit kit looks to be running around $86. A full new 65Q looks to be running a little over double the retrofit. I'm seeing the EA S4 PAR anywhere from $250-300 per.

Really good and important point about the availability of HPL lamps likely being around the longest of any incandescents. Ive no idea how good a conversion the HPL kit is but it includes a reflector and thats a big help. That would be my choice, then get the really long life 2000 hr lamps.
 
Really good and important point about the availability of HPL lamps likely being around the longest of any incandescents. Ive no idea how good a conversion the HPL kit is but it includes a reflector and thats a big help. That would be my choice, then get the really long life 2000 hr lamps.
I never used them side by side in a plot, but in showroom shootouts, the HPL performed surprisingly well.
 
Recycle them.
 
At this point, I wouldn't consider anything besides the HPL retrofit kit. Incandescent is widely on the way out, and if any lamp is going to hang on just a little longer, it'll be the HPL. The biggest consideration is budget. Can you afford new Source 4 PAR's? Then save youself the time and trouble and just get those. On the other hand, if every penny matters, and you're craving a restoration project, sure, fix up those 65Q's. They're venerable industry legends that no proper LD will be offended by. Paint loss doesn't matter, but if wiring is frayed, then the costs of repair start to add up.

Before deciding which way you want to take this, take a look at the current supply chain delays, and figure out what's even available. The HPL retrofit kit looks to be running around $86. A full new 65Q looks to be running a little over double the retrofit. I'm seeing the EA S4 PAR anywhere from $250-300 per.
I wasn't aware that Altman is selling a kit. Surprising, considering they've EOL'd much of their conventional product lines. I see now though that the 65Q has avoided the butcher block for the time being.

OP - if you're not a school or similarly government-owned entity, you might want to reach out to local rental houses and AV installers. Many of them are retrofitting and literally tripping over conventional stock. Got a text the other day from a friend who works at Alford Media (subsidiary of Freeman) asking me if I wanted a case of 8 ETC Source Four Zooms for free. About a year ago, I bought a bunch of Source Four ellipsoidals from Batts AVL in Denison Tx for $25 each. They pulled them from schools that were going all-in on LED and the fixtures are in practically new condition. A couple years before that, a local school district off-loaded a shipping container full of Colortran 6" fresnels - dirty, but also in good condition and free.

Basically, deals are out there and I think you can do better than $85 per upgraded 65Q or full MSRP for S4 Pars if you ask around.
 
Others have already suggested what I would have suggested, but I'll also add that finding "gently used" Source 4 PARs would be a great option to buying new, if that helps stretch the pennies. As others have said, a lot of schools/universities are switching over to LED, so there is probably a lot of used S4Ps out there that just need the cobwebs blown off.
 
As suggested by @jonares above, this is from one of the usual suspects when looking for used:
 
I've actually installed a few of the HPL conversion kits in my day and I'd say it's a great option, replaces everything from the sled, socket, reflector and pigtail (really all the parts that matter) so not only do you get a 'modern' lamp type but most likely get rid of fuzzy or fraying jacket on the current wire sets.

For all those saying just go S4 Par - Yes, PARs do shoot light to an area, but IMHO you just don't have the quality or control that you do with Fresnels. So, for event or concert work, probably a fine swap, for theatre design, I still think the Fresnel is a necessary tool.
 
I've actually installed a few of the HPL conversion kits in my day and I'd say it's a great option, replaces everything from the sled, socket, reflector and pigtail (really all the parts that matter) so not only do you get a 'modern' lamp type but most likely get rid of fuzzy or fraying jacket on the current wire sets.

For all those saying just go S4 Par - Yes, PARs do shoot light to an area, but IMHO you just don't have the quality or control that you do with Fresnels. So, for event or concert work, probably a fine swap, for theatre design, I still think the Fresnel is a necessary tool.

Oh, didn’t realize the retrofit kit included the full wiring and sleeve assembly. That’s a big selling point. I even have a few fresnel shells of my own sitting around I might put that in.
 
You can take the guts/sled out of the 65Q, attach a type-A lamp socket to the back, insert a 100W-equivalent LED lamp, add a blue gel, and you have some great running lights to hang around back stage.
I've wired several E27 lamp holders directly to the sled, its really not that hard. That way you don't lose the reflector!
 
Thank you all for your input and experiences!
At this point most of the fixtures in question will get some love and others will become part donors. I may have found a source of new sockets and will see if they are as advertised when they arrive. Sadly the HPL conversion is out, sounded cool.
 
Sorry I missed this conversation. I recently brought two down light Hub c.1970 Fresneis up to 360Q standards other than the reflectors - one of which was not reflecting as well and neither were as efficient. They had the "incandescent lamp" downgrade to 400G-30SP incandescent lamps which matched the lamp in the original 1926 down light fixtures in use.
Really someone put some BTR lamps in them as a down light, and you wouldn't take away that paint brush from them and give them something Americain DJ LED PAR to play in your pen with? I mean this, assuming the place you are in contact with put a BTR into a Fresnel, and as a down light... why would you trust them with anything other than LED?
Didn't know there was a HPL upgrade to the Fresnel. I see the difference in the LCL of the BTL and the HPL is 3/16" in the Leko lamp higher. Not too hard to adjust for for a lamp socket assembly. So the BTH lamp is totally obsolete now?

Ushio still makes the lamp socket, as with others. Ushio's mounting screws are in a different place, and on certain fixtures might be too close to a reflector assembly. There is still other lamp socket makers like Buhl.
 
>> So the BTH lamp is totally obsolete now?

No. BTH is still available. As are the other BT lamps (BTR, BTN, BTL, etc.) And Jay is right. HPLs will likely be the last TH lamp to go, due to sheer volume in the world.
 
I TOTALLY disagree with SteveB on this however- "That would be my choice, then get the really long life 2000 hr lamps." There is no value (IMHO) to getting the long-life lamps-- UNLESS you are running them 24/7 at full intensity. If you are dimming the lamp or running it at various intensities in a variety of cues in a variety of productions, you are already getting a huge life increase. Every time the lamp isn't being run at full intensity, you are gaining life over it's rated lifetime. You can't make a long-life lamp brighter (unless you are the Lighting equivalent of Spinal Tap and your lighting console goes to 11), but you can always make a high output lamp last longer and turn it into the equivalent long-life version just by runing it at 90-95%. Get the lamp version that gives you the most options, not the one that limits you to a choice between dim or dimmer. Just my 2 cents on that. (And that is 100% from Mark the LD, not Mark the OSRAM lamp guy.)
 
I wasn't aware that Altman is selling a kit. Surprising, considering they've EOL'd much of their conventional product lines. I see now though that the 65Q has avoided the butcher block for the time being.

OP - if you're not a school or similarly government-owned entity, you might want to reach out to local rental houses and AV installers. Many of them are retrofitting and literally tripping over conventional stock. Got a text the other day from a friend who works at Alford Media (subsidiary of Freeman) asking me if I wanted a case of 8 ETC Source Four Zooms for free. About a year ago, I bought a bunch of Source Four ellipsoidals from Batts AVL in Denison Tx for $25 each. They pulled them from schools that were going all-in on LED and the fixtures are in practically new condition. A couple years before that, a local school district off-loaded a shipping container full of Colortran 6" fresnels - dirty, but also in good condition and free.

Basically, deals are out there and I think you can do better than $85 per upgraded 65Q or full MSRP for S4 Pars if you ask around.
What I would give for some of those freebies! The arts is sorely neglected here.
 

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