Cost advantage for Broadway vs Hollywood Flats?

13 nails in a corner block, 9 nails in a keystone, and always orient the nails so that they curl across the grain.
@JonCarter ; You might mention / explain that after clinching on the plate, the face side of the flat's frame was flawlessly smooth and scratch / catch free. If it wasn't, or the nail's point was at all perceptible to an un-gloved fingertip, you hadn't hit the nail's head hard and fast enough with a sufficiently weighty hammer. Short handled 5 pound sledges were popular in my area along with 20 and 22 ounce ripping hammers. @Van is correct when he mentioned rusting, as water from glue and sizing would often result in tiny dots of rust appearing on the face surface of your canvas covering material.
You were building fabric covered flats at the time were you not? Of course you were, you're a fellow 'geezer' too!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Old Pharte alert

I don't remember the rust so much. Fabric was glued to rear of framing. Then the front was sized, but not soaked. Ah, the smell of animal glue, especially if it burned.

I was always taught not to wrap but glue/staple to the front and trim the muslin 1/8 inch or so from the edge of the flat. Always of course using clear 1x3 ( unless the flat was over 16 feet).
 
Old Pharte alert
I was always taught not to wrap but glue/staple to the front and trim the muslin 1/8 inch or so from the edge of the flat. Always of course using clear 1x3 ( unless the flat was over 16 feet).

We always stapled into the side, about 3/8" down, then trimmed with razor knife. If you di it properly the very edge of the muslin was slightly buried in the kerf of the blade cut.
 
I don't remember the rust so much. Fabric was glued to rear of framing. Then the front was sized, but not soaked. Ah, the smell of animal glue, especially if it burned.
TLDR ALERT ! ! ! @BillConnerFASTC @Van @JChenault My days of clinched and fabric covered flats were spent in the basement shop of an amateur group in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. On the plus side, they had a 5' x 16' bench with storage for 4' x 8' sheet stock and 1 x 2 - 3 & 4" #1 pine [They rarely had the budget for clear unless they were building something which would be varnished or stained rather than hidden, painted or wall papered] in lengths ranging from 1 to 16 feet all neatly organized in individually separated and labelled storage locations within the supporting structure of the bench. The bench's working surface was a double layer of 3/4" ply with the upper layer replaced every couple of years as required. The poured concrete floor was approximately 4 steps / less then 3' below grade. We had shallow windows approximately 2' high just below ceiling level and lighting was overhead 8' CW T12 fluorescents. Space to work and walk all around the bench and no need to build flat on the floor. There were a selection of 4 or 5 clinch plates but nothing specially shaped. The most popular plate was about a 1' square piece of flat steel a little more than 1/4" thick which was kept on the bench and was trotted about as required. A straight 16' length of 1 x 3 was secured to the bench top the entire length of one side with a 5' length across one end serving as a permanent square for assembling flawlessly square / rectangular flats. 14' flats were their most popular height but any lengths up to 16' were built on the bench. One of the best "tricks" was installing the squaring strips / alignment guides [Whatever the correct nomenclature might be] with a 1/2" gap where they met in the corner, still rigidly and squarely secured but not quite touching one another to make it easy to brush or blow accumulating sawdust out of the corner where it would have interfered with pushing 1" x 3" stock tightly against the guides. Me? I was a lighting and sound kid still in high school and working in commercial broadcast at the time but I donated my share of hours to building flats as it was difficult to focus on a set that wasn't built yet. For an amateur group it was a great facility and it's still there and being used with the addition of a panel saw for ripping and cross-cutting sheet goods, a 12" radial arm, and a couple of portable chop saws; a 12" that remains in the shop and a 10" that gets dragged up to the stage during assembly. Adjacent basement rooms store their inventory of flats laying on edge as opposed to standing with other basement rooms dedicated to paint and wall paper storage and props along with a much smaller room for 36 of their dimmers directly below their stage level 48 x 100 circuit slide patch.
Nothing's perfect. On the negative side, being amateurs, they were using LePages water based white glue for assembly and diluting it with water to attach covering then further diluting it to brush or roll on for sizing. Hence their minor rusting problems. Some "carpenters" [they were all amateurs] chose to staple fabric on the rear while others chose the edges and the 'sinners' stapled on the face then trimmed the excess while the thinned glue was still setting. Their theory was a layer of masking tape across joints would hide all sins.
Sorry! That's far too many syllables on the joys of amateur carpentry for a blind, decrepit, sound and lighting guy.
Anybody remember a thread from a couple of years ago where someone claimed he'd been lighting shows since the days of candles and got off on a tangent about experimenting with improvements in the wicking of whale oil?
It wasn't @JonCarter but I can't recall who it was.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Van
No, Ron, I came along a little later than the whale oil days.

I remember very well a work table as much as you describe. Ours was 6' x 16', double ply top. We always built our flats with the covering staples on the face, first toward the center of the flat, then glue the flap, then staple along the outside edge & trim. (We used to use hide glue (it was an outdoor theatre) but the rain always caused problems with the glue and the stage paint. About 1955 we switched to casein glue and paint--thot we'd died & gone to heaven.) Always fastened the covering on the face of the flat and had the paint crew dutchman any joints. Covering wrapping the frames and fastened on the back gets cut & damaged handling the flat--more work for the next guy.

Clinch nails & 5# sledges?? Didn't you guys eat your oatmeal? I never had any problem using my 1# Estwing. Two swats and a good one to clinch.
 
No, Ron, I came along a little later than the whale oil days.

I remember very well a work table as much as you describe. Ours was 6' x 16', double ply top. We always built our flats with the covering staples on the face, first toward the center of the flat, then glue the flap, then staple along the outside edge & trim. (We used to use hide glue (it was an outdoor theatre) but the rain always caused problems with the glue and the stage paint. About 1955 we switched to casein glue and paint--thot we'd died & gone to heaven.) Always fastened the covering on the face of the flat and had the paint crew dutchman any joints. Covering wrapping the frames and fastened on the back gets cut & damaged handling the flat--more work for the next guy.

Clinch nails & 5# sledges?? Didn't you guys eat your oatmeal? I never had any problem using my 1# Estwing. Two swats and a good one to clinch.
DEFINITELY TLDR AGAIN!
@JonCarter Personally, I was never a fan of the Estwings, something about the angle of their striking face in relation to the longitudinal axis of their handles. I always liked their appearance, balance and quality but they never matched the hammer I began my apprenticeship with. With the first hammer I purchased, I could pound nails all day exactly as you describe. Anytime / every time someone would hand me their Estwing to drive one nail, I'd consistently knock it over / away from me. It was totally due to having spent years with my first hammer and my arm's "muscle memories" found it nigh on impossible to use any of the Estwings for any useful purpose. My marteau (Spelling) of choice was a 20 ounce Stanley F1 straight claw framing hammer which I purchased to pound my 5/8" square x 18" long Sears Craftsman cold chisel that I bought as part of my initial collection of pro' grade tools when I commenced the first year of my construction and maintenance electrical apprenticeship. Whenever the cold chisel's head began to 'mushroom', I'd give it a few rotations against a bench grinder. Periodically I'd utilize the same grinder to reshape and sharpen the cutting end. Every few years, it'd be getting a bit shorter and, being a Craftsman tool, my local Sears store would replace it with a new one. Not that it was broken as such but I'd show a clerk my chisel next to a new one with the identically stamped matching part numbers facing she or he and they'd agree I'd clearly put a lot of miles on it and cheerfully give me my gratis exchange. To this day, I still own one of those chisels and my original Stanley F1 hammer.
To get back to the short-handled 5 pound sledges; many / most of the amateurs didn't swing a hammer for a living and couldn't drive a nail home by coffee break. Thus a pair of short-handled five pounders were kept on hand for the lady teachers and folks who flew desks all day to play and entertain themselves with.
Guys on job sites where always ragging me for my foot and a half / 18" long cold chisels with cat calls such as "Don't like to get too close to your work sonny?" If you're carefully cutting a missed box into a finished concrete block supporting wall or adding extra receptacles and / or switches being included as after the fact extra cost additions to a project which were added after the signing of the contract AND the wall is constructed from 12" blocks, the additional length often comes in handy. If you're several stories up above finished grade, working from inside and needing to get at least a guide hole on the exterior, it's REALLY nice to have something left to grab as your chisel suddenly breaks through and attempts to sail off into the sunset and / or land on someone or something outside. He who laughs last is the kid with the long chisel when some journeyman loses his 8, 10 or 12 incher into the innards of a finished block wall. Secondarily, if you're constructing a building from the foundations up on a site in a sea of mud with your car parked a half mile away and you're carrying ALL of the tools you need to get through your day with you, you elect to carry one chisel rather than a selection of three or four. If I was only going to tote one all day, I wanted my most versatile and my Craftsman 5/8" square by 18" long was my chisel of choice and NEVER let me down over the course of my five year apprenticeship and my time in doing lighting and sound in a soft=seater road house. I can't recall ever needing my chisel once I switched allegiances, to became the IA head of sound in the Stratford Festival's main stage and rented an apartment in Stratford. No, I'm pretty sure the chisel remained home in Hamilton and moved directly to Burlington from there. I still own it. Know where it is at the moment. It's still never let me down and I STILL type posts that are TOO LONG and rambling. I also bought a Craftsman two pound ball-peen back when I originally purchased my first long cold chisel but I've rarely needed to drag it out as the 20 ounce Stanley F1 perpetually served the great bulk of my needs.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Hammers are just one of those things that has to be decided by feel. I own an Estwing but I usually reach for a Stanley Fatmax Anti-Vibe first. I just prefer its balance. I also love the True Temper hammers I inherited from a great Uncle, but those stay at home and never go to a shop.

A few years ago I got my first dead blow mallet and I've never looked back. Anything that needs a bit of "persuasion" that's what I pick up first.

As for chisels, I need a cold chisel a few times a month in the metal shop, but the real star chisel is a 3/4" "beater" wood chisel. That gets touch up on the grinding wheel about once a week.

I've never driven a cinch nail, never been in a shop that was set up to do them, and doubt I ever will be.
 
Yes, it was on face. Only wrapped Hollywood flats, hospital sheet folds at corners and all.

Seem to recall not leaving staples as kicknargel suggests. And burying edge in pine when trimming.

Still don't recall rust. Were there plain and blued clout nails maybe, and the premium blued ones were less likely to rust?
 
Hammers are just one of those things that has to be decided by feel. I own an Estwing but I usually reach for a Stanley Fatmax Anti-Vibe first. I just prefer its balance. I also love the True Temper hammers I inherited from a great Uncle, but those stay at home and never go to a shop.

A few years ago I got my first dead blow mallet and I've never looked back. Anything that needs a bit of "persuasion" that's what I pick up first.

As for chisels, I need a cold chisel a few times a month in the metal shop, but the real star chisel is a 3/4" "beater" wood chisel. That gets touch up on the grinding wheel about once a week.

I've never driven a cinch nail, never been in a shop that was set up to do them, and doubt I ever will be.
@gafftapegreenia In total agreement plus your mention of "dead blows" evokes a memory.
A different amateur group in my area has one member who's a a serious machinist and felt the group should add a two pound "high-viz" dead blow to their disorganized collection of tools which included at least six 16 ounce claw hammers and one two pound ball peen. The high-viz [Being Day-Glow orange] instantly became the brightest, most visually attention commanding, tool in their box. In no time, every eager-beaver who wanted to help grabbed the dead blow and carried it about looking for something they could help with. We had 'well intentioned' folks doing everything from trying to support a thumb tack between heir fingers and attempting to push it in with the dead blow, to folks driving 3" finishing nails into the edges of 1 x 3 pine, to folks attempting to pound 2.5" hardened concrete nails into block walls, to folks using it to start 3" #8 flat heads into pine prior to driving them home with their cordless. ALL OF THE ABOVE with a dead blow! Within a matter of weeks, and realize these folks were only working a few evenings and weekends, the dead blow was toast with a hole through its striking face and its "shot" rolling hazardously across the floor over about half the building. STILL the perilously helpful were grabbing the now empty dead blow and attempting to use it to drive screws, nails; anything they could hit with it.
FURTHER TOPIC SWERVE WARNING:
As if we haven't swerved this more than far enough already, folks who'd select a dead blow with reckless abandon are essentially of the same mindset as A/V 'wonder-kind' who mate any connectors that physically fit regardless of cable / signal types or levels.
From comparative cost analysis of scenic flat construction,
through a brief discussion of hammer types and applications,
to the selection of A/V cable and connector types.
Possibly we could cover Cam-Locks vs. 125 Amp pin and sleeves along with how many neutrals and dedicated ground conductors are desired / required in a 'Company switch'.
No! Let's not go there, at least not in this thread.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Its hard to get people to understand that not all hammers do the same things...I've seen many shot pellets rolling around.

I'm surprised that some people haven't heard of using staples in flat construction. All the shops I've worked in have their trusty porter cable or rigid narrow crown staplers that every flat gets put together with. In my current shop we actually use duo fast carpet tackers to put broadway flats together with 9/16" divergent point staples to attach the luan corner blocks/keystones (does anyone use ACTUAL keystones anymore? we just cut rectangles...) On hard covered broadway flats we'll use the corrugated fastener and avoid blocks all together

Of course this is when we're not building reusable scenery, just about all of our local jobs run for a few weeks then get pitched in the dumpster, so we don't have to build for longevity.
 
Its hard to get people to understand that not all hammers do the same things...I've seen many shot pellets rolling around.

I'm surprised that some people haven't heard of using staples in flat construction. All the shops I've worked in have their trusty porter cable or rigid narrow crown staplers that every flat gets put together with. In my current shop we actually use duo fast carpet tackers to put broadway flats together with 9/16" divergent point staples to attach the luan corner blocks/keystones (does anyone use ACTUAL keystones anymore? we just cut rectangles...) On hard covered broadway flats we'll use the corrugated fastener and avoid blocks all together

Of course this is when we're not building reusable scenery, just about all of our local jobs run for a few weeks then get pitched in the dumpster, so we don't have to build for longevity.

Every professional shop I've worked in shoots their flats together with narrow crow staples. A few like medium crown for the framing. It's only at the storefronts where I'm still screwing 1x flat frames together.

Shops like Hudson also build platforms out of 1x stock and 3/4" ply all shot together with medium crown staples.

A coworker turned me on to 3/16" crown 19 gauge staples last year and it's become my preferred way to attach lauan. No blow thru!

I was a one hammer man for years, and then I realized how nice the ball peen is in the metal shop for punches. Now I have a growing pile of hammers.
 
Last edited:
But do you have a TAIT Towers BFH?
 
Its hard to get people to understand that not all hammers do the same things...I've seen many shot pellets rolling around.

I'm surprised that some people haven't heard of using staples in flat construction. All the shops I've worked in have their trusty porter cable or rigid narrow crown staplers that every flat gets put together with. In my current shop we actually use duo fast carpet tackers to put broadway flats together with 9/16" divergent point staples to attach the luan corner blocks/keystones (does anyone use ACTUAL keystones anymore? we just cut rectangles...) On hard covered broadway flats we'll use the corrugated fastener and avoid blocks all together

Of course this is when we're not building reusable scenery, just about all of our local jobs run for a few weeks then get pitched in the dumpster, so we don't have to build for longevity.
@bobgaggle Back in 1990, I toured with a production all the way to Broadway's Shubert. We were carrying an assortment of black velour and / or Commando cloth covered flats to suit the needs of the various venues we were scheduled to visit on our way from Toronto, where the production was originally produced, through Calgary's PAC, which is comparatively huge, SanFransisco, which was medium sized, and finally into Broadway's Shubert which, like most Broadway houses, is quite cramped and tight backstage. The bulk of our masking was constructed using welded square tubular steel frames with the covering fabrics glued in place. Our touring carpenter, along with the Shubert's house carpenter and a young fellow from Radio City who local 1 laid on as the "Production Load-in carpenter", elected to load ALL of our masking into the auditorium, select from our stock over the course of load-in / hang & focus, then summon a trailer mounted crusher / shredder to park outside the Shubert for one hour to dispose of our unused masking, fabric + steel, in one visit. The producers, in conjunction with Broadway's police, organized a permit to allow us to begin loading excess items to the sidewalk one hour prior the crusher / shredder's arrival time in preparation to have our entire operation completed within our permitted time. In the darkness of pre-dawn, our crew began hauling masking out to the street and lining it up in preparation for as quick a disposal as possible. Bear in mind we were touring with steel framed borders approximately 20 to 22 feet by 4' and legs of similar sizes. An operator who arrived with the crusher / shredder was feeding one end of each piece into the open jaws of this "contraption" then quickly stepping aside as 20' of steel began waving up and down as it was being pulled into the machine, gripped, chopped, pulled into the shredder then spit into the dumpster.
The sounds and noise levels were UNREAL. ALL of the masking flats, along with anything else no longer required, were devoured within our allotted time and the rental company's truck returned to tow the entire rig away. ALL within the time allowed by our permit. Broadway police arrived towards the end of our permit to ensure their sidewalk and narrow road was totally clear for the onset of morning rush hour.
Prior to this, I'd NEVER experienced a machine like this "eating welded steel" on a city street in the heart of downtown. I found it both interesting and fascinating to say the least. I guess I'd been living a sheltered life up here north of the border.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but why waste all that? Why not stick it back on the truck it came in, take it home and donate it to some poor underfunded community theatre? Or is it a union thing, can't re-use stuff?
 
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but why waste all that? Why not stick it back on the truck it came in, take it home and donate it to some poor underfunded community theatre? Or is it a union thing, can't re-use stuff?

Broadway is a unique beast. Even more so than usual it's all about the bottom line. Why pay to truck something you don't need?
 
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but why waste all that? Why not stick it back on the truck it came in, take it home and donate it to some poor underfunded community theatre? Or is it a union thing, can't re-use stuff?
@JonCarter Sorry atJon, my internet's been down all night since 11:51 p.m. my time.
I think that way myself and would've loved to have sent it back home and given it away to friends. The borders were welded in sections for handling convenience and assembled into somewhere in the area of 60' wide, three sections thus no center seam.
All of the masking, legs and borders, were fitted with hanging cables and trim chains when they went into the machine.
To your question:
This was a full-bore Equity / IA production. Thus:
IA scenery built by IA members in an IA shop.
The producers, and others FAR above my lowly status, made all decisions and determinations.
We already had mountains of gear we were shipping home as we were carrying FOH lighting instruments for three vastly different sizes of venues.
Our FOH lighting; instruments of focal lengths for two flown trusses, two balcony rails and six box booms [three per side] were of different focal lengths to accommodate the vastly different requirements of venues we were touring through along the way to the Shubert thus, once we reached Broadway, we had literally tons of gear to return to Canada. Not only masking was being shredded; Our touring deck contained automated tracks and the sectional deck was built to accommodate three sizes of venues. When we reached the comparatively tiny Shubert, we had custom painted decking modules hitting the shredder as well. Our tour left Toronto in 7, densely packed, trailers. Once we were in previews, our seven trailers were parked across the river in New Jersey on the parking lot a rental shop housed in a former twin-pad skating rink. [If any of our New York / New Jersey members recognize this shop from my description I'd love to know the name of the shop as they were GREAT in terms of friendliness and loaning us ramps and forklifts for shuffling crates between trailers when it came time to compact our unused items into 3 or 4 trailers and return the no longer needed trailers to their owners]
As the local 1 production electrician was keeping me on for a month past opening in a mutual favors arrangement, I considered myself fortunate to have my personal touring box returned to a shop in Toronto who were willing to store it for me gratis until my return a month after the rest of our empties and now surplus gear.
I totally concur with your thoughts @JonCarter but I was touring as the second assistant LX / Lead spot op' / focuser of ALL FOH instruments. Decisions Re: what was being shredded were made FAR above my level.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Not to mention factors such as population density, real estate prices, absence of alleys, and strong unions dominate the economics and make crazy stuff make sense. When I did some Off-Broadway, I had to totally shift my mindset to a situation where not only was there not a dock, there wasn't a parking space. All loading had to be accomplished through double-parking on the street, and there's no such thing as running to Home Depot for an extra piece of trim.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back