Creating dead zone for hearing protection

dnathan

Active Member
I'm starting a rock band and I have tinnitus. As singer/founder I can design it to protect my hearing. I'm planning in-ear monitors, electric drums, and a PA speaker(s) (probably Bose L1) in the front corner of the stage. I need advice on ways to create a dead zone for myself that especially cancels out the high lead guitar frequencies. I'm assuming the Bose would be the best because of its clean sound, but I'm open. I'm also concerned about crowd noise. Thoughts?
 
Bose L1 doesn't have anything special in that would be ideal for this, and noise cancelling doesn't generally work on a large scale outside of headphones. For that matter, Bose is a pretty terrible option for live sound. You pay twice as much for the "Bose" name than you would for an equivalent product from anyone else, and the L1 system just doesn't have much horsepower behind it.

To do what you're looking for, you would want loudspeakers that are designed for a specific coverage pattern. High-frequencies like guitars are also very directional and only really go where the cabinets are pointed. What you would be more concerned about are low frequencies, which are omnidirectional. To avoid a build-up of low-end on-stage, you would use cardioid subs, which are designed to reject toward the rear and sides of the cabinets.

On the weekend warrior end of the spectrum, this would be something like that QSC KS212C, usually paired with K10.2's or K12.2's.

Of course with an electric kit you probably need to park a sub under your drummer and give them a good pair of headphones otherwise they can't find the rhythm.

If you religiously keep your in-ears in, it doesn't much matter what's happening on-stage. Lot of vocalists will pull one or both ears out occasionally to hear the crowd better. Major downside to this is that in-ears are incredibly isolating. Lot of careful mixing goes into giving each musician a mix that makes them feel like they aren't just playing in an anechoic chamber with earplugs in all alone.

For the guitars use direct input boxes after the pedal board or on keyboards to inject the instruments into the mixing console. This way the amplifiers on stage are only so those players can hear themselves, and are not turned up loud enough to blast the room.

I wouldn't worry about really any of this until you have the band started though. Crowd noise doesn't matter unless you have a crowd, and the amount of PA you need to play for 15 people is different than from 50, and is different from 500. The amount of PA SPL you have to be concerned about varies for different crowd sizes too.
 
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"no highs, no lows? must be bose"
but seriously, Mike hit most of the points. There are some in ears that are great earplugs and thats going to do most of the work to kill stage sound and still give you the ability to hear the mix. Some have a higher decibel reduction than others and getting a proper fit/seal can make a big difference.
 
Yeah - I like the no highs part. I like the way you can be right in front of the speakers and have nearly the same decibel reading as 20 feet away. We work with a different DJ every weekend, and to me, nothing sounds better and leaves my ears in better shape, than Bose. Mike's reply was eye-opening, especially regarding the bass. Most DJs are fricking deaf, so they turn it up way too much, so it's hard to accurately compare.

This video at 8:58 shows how Bose creates a single sound wave that enables it to utilize a lower gain.
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"From a distance of 8m from the source, the L1 will lose only 9dB of sound, where the conventional speaker will lose 18dB..." This is huge to me. The line between rockin and painful is very small.
 
This video at 8:58 shows how Bose creates a single sound wave that enables it to utilize a lower gain.

I didn't see how they create anything, I saw marketing claims that it does something -- there's a big difference.

Regardless, their two examples were incomparable -- The L1 is a coupled point array, and the "other" boxes were an uncoupled point sources. The same results can be had with proper implementation of an aligned point source array -- this is just how these boxes work, the array drivers have a very limited vertical dispersion, and a horizontal dispersion that's dependent on the height of the array. They gain shade the linear array so the drivers at head height are at one output level, and you shade the level higher towards the top of the array so you get even SPL across the length of it's field of coverage. You input your dedicated signals to each stack at the stack and not at a mixer because it needs to do some phase magic to not feed back with the source signal.

I generally avoid Bose -- I've worked alongside their staff Professional engineers and have never seen as much disregard for the science of what we do as when I watched them "tune" a room, so I am very dubious of any marketing claims they have. I'm sure you can get great things out of their boxes with judicious placement and EQ, but you can also do it at half the price with a half dozen other manufacturers stuff.

I don't buy the use of the L1 for self-monitoring. It's great in theory, but absolutely miserable in practice. What happens when your drummer wants more guitar and can't because they aren't in-pattern or too upstage of the Guitar's L1? Save your money, buy some decent QSC boxes, some amp modeling pedals, and a wired IEM system.
 
"From a distance of 8m from the source, the L1 will lose only 9dB of sound, where the conventional speaker will lose 18dB..." This is huge to me. The line between rockin and painful is very small.

I find that last statement rather dubious and more like marketing claims not backed up by reality. Much like light, the inverse square law should still apply (with variations do to reflections and what not). You're better off buying something that actually reproduces a decent quality of sound and then just not cranking it as loud, or adding delay speakers somewhere to keep the volume consistent further back.
 
In theory, that's how it works. Gotta keep in mind though that Bose has for many years had a strong marketing presence based on gimmicks and fuzzy physics. There's always an element of truth in what they put out in the world, but my impression of their products has been that their real claim to fame is presenting sound in a way that people aren't used to hearing it before. Music through some of Bose's systems sounds "enhanced", not necessarily because it's better or because it's more truthful to what the mastering producer intended, but because the EQ and phasing accentuates the music differently than the listening experience people are used to. It is easy for someone in a shopping mall at one of Bose's storefronts to mistake "different" for "better".

The physics behind column speakers is pretty well established though. A scientifically ideal line array attenuates at 3dB per doubling of distance, where a point source cabinet attenuates at 6dB. But in practice they just aren't rock and roll systems, and since nothing is ever perfect your "line-ish" source is going to attenuate more at 4.5dB per doubling of distance. Also worth pointing out that this pattern control is a function of the length of the array at a given frequency up to a certain distance. A longer array has better pattern control down to lower frequencies.

So a 5' line source only controls 1000 Hz to that 3-4.5dB/doubling up to 35' away. At 35', that line effect has dissipated and the speaker performs just as well as a point source cabinet would. At 500 Hz, this happens at 17'.

Don't get me wrong -- I've used higher end steerable column speakers in churches and a few theaters to great success, but that's a very controlled environment, primarily with speech or dynamically soft music, and the relationship between the location and size of the audience doesn't ever change.

If in doubt though, read some of the rather bland reviews over at PSW.

It's also suspicious that if you look at Bose's website, it's rather lacking in performance information. If you dig deep enough though, you can find some info at Full Compass' website, like the remarkable physics-defying claim of [Nominal Dispersion: 195° H x 0° V].
 
Bose has always been the Apple of the audiophile world to me. I've got my dad's old Waveradio that he bought at the height of popularity for I'm sure entirely way too much money and my wife managed to snag an old 5.1 system from a friend on Facebook for like $30. They both sound great, but not at the original MSRP.

I've always wondered how much IEM's block sound and if they are effective at preventing hearing damage, assuming of course that the user isn't turning up the volume too high. When I've used them I notice they do block a lot of outside noise (which I guess is the point). I've got a couple of vocalists who consistently do the one ear out bit you mentioned and I've always cautioned them that it can lead to hearing damage as is parlance for the tech, but is there research backing that claim?
 
I've always wondered how much IEM's block sound and if they are effective at preventing hearing damage, assuming of course that the user isn't turning up the volume too high. When I've used them I notice they do block a lot of outside noise (which I guess is the point). I've got a couple of vocalists who consistently do the one ear out bit you mentioned and I've always cautioned them that it can lead to hearing damage as is parlance for the tech, but is there research backing that claim?

I don't know what research there is, but do enough monitor mixing and you'll be super relieved to get a gig with in-ears, it is a great deal quieter onstage. Even your FOH mixer will notice a massive change, assuming you're not mixing in an arena.

As for the folks wearing only one year, provide them a room microphone...you get dizzy and claustrophobic without it. In-Ears get super disorienting and isolating without some sort of external feedback.
 
I've always cautioned them that it can lead to hearing damage as is parlance for the tech, but is there research backing that claim?

In my own experience I can assure you this is true. My everyday earphones are Shure SE315's, and they block about 20ish dB of sound. Love to use them when mowing the lawn or doing loud activities. With only one ear in though, it's very difficult to gauge loudness. I've learned to be very conscientious about volume adjustments because I've noticed how easy it is to drive them louder than when I have both ears in.

As @themuzicman pointed out, putting a crowd mic out lets you add some comfort noise to the IEM mixes that reduces that urge to pull an ear out.
 
One ear out is crazy because the brain compensates for the difference, causing more hearing damage.

It sounds like the QSCs would be better, then, for going from venue to venue than a line array? How would that compare to an overhead array as part of the lighting truss?
 
Before you get too far along:

What kinds/sizes of venues are you planning to play in?

How much storage space do you have?

Does buying a bunch of stuff mean you also need to go and buy a truck or a trailer?

Etc. etc.
 
Yeah, I've got ambient mics set up in this particular mix and they still do it. :p As the FOH I did also enjoy the significantly reduced stage volume after getting rid of the wedges. Now if we could just put the drummer in some sort of sound proof box without him asphyxiating...:think:
 
Bose - better sound through litigation. Bring Other Sound Equipment.

The L1 doesn't do anything not done by similar form factor speaker systems. Another instance of run - do not walk - away from the *marketing prowess* of Blose.
 
In theory, that's how it works. Gotta keep in mind though that Bose has for many years had a strong marketing presence based on gimmicks and fuzzy physics. There's always an element of truth in what they put out in the world, but my impression of their products has been that their real claim to fame is presenting sound in a way that people aren't used to hearing it before. Music through some of Bose's systems sounds "enhanced", not necessarily because it's better or because it's more truthful to what the mastering producer intended, but because the EQ and phasing accentuates the music differently than the listening experience people are used to. It is easy for someone in a shopping mall at one of Bose's storefronts to mistake "different" for "better".

The physics behind column speakers is pretty well established though. A scientifically ideal line array attenuates at 3dB per doubling of distance, where a point source cabinet attenuates at 6dB. But in practice they just aren't rock and roll systems, and since nothing is ever perfect your "line-ish" source is going to attenuate more at 4.5dB per doubling of distance. Also worth pointing out that this pattern control is a function of the length of the array at a given frequency up to a certain distance. A longer array has better pattern control down to lower frequencies.

So a 5' line source only controls 1000 Hz to that 3-4.5dB/doubling up to 35' away. At 35', that line effect has dissipated and the speaker performs just as well as a point source cabinet would. At 500 Hz, this happens at 17'.

Don't get me wrong -- I've used higher end steerable column speakers in churches and a few theaters to great success, but that's a very controlled environment, primarily with speech or dynamically soft music, and the relationship between the location and size of the audience doesn't ever change.

If in doubt though, read some of the rather bland reviews over at PSW.

It's also suspicious that if you look at Bose's website, it's rather lacking in performance information. If you dig deep enough though, you can find some info at Full Compass' website, like the remarkable physics-defying claim of [Nominal Dispersion: 195° H x 0° V].

IEMs on custom ear molds can provide more than -20dB isolation, some closer to -30dB and the comments about ambient pickup mic(s) are spot on. Removing one IEM is a Very Bad Thing and should be avoided.

My personal contempt for Blose marketing practices would fill this forum because as you found, there aren't really any technical or engineering specifications for their consumer products; one merely accepts on faith that the Emperor's new Blose are so fine that specifications are meaningless.

That doesn't mean the folks are Blose are dumb - they aren't... it's just that the marketing dept found a snob appeal way of selling their products whereby they don't have to divulge much to attract market share. The up-thread comparison to Apple fanboyism is 100% accurate and Blose works very hard to keep it that way.

As a guy who provides sound systems for and mixes rock, jazz, theatre, opera and orchestral events I can say that our original poster needs to tell us more about the venues he plans to play (sizes, shapes, any acoustic treatment etc) and the genre of music he performs. If he's on custom molded IEMs he likely won't need as much stage SPL control (although as FOH mixperson I love quieter stages). I see pushback from the drummer particularly with cymbals (the sensor pads just don't play like the real things) and snare drum and will want the real deal, while those are typically the loudest parts of the drum kit in contemporary live country or rock music. It's the OP's band and I presume he can dictate or specify e-kit when hiring the drummer but my experience has been that drummers mostly hate them, especially electronic snare and bronze.

Mike, I want to distill your tech comments to this: follow the physics, not the marketing. You're spot on.
 
I live in Phoenix, and hope to play outdoors often, but we'll be playing a bunch of weddings, fundraisers, concerts, casinos, resorts, and even arenas. I hope to steer us away from small gigs in echo chambers.

Perhaps with ambient mic(s) I can take audience noise and EQ out the painful frequencies for my own IEM. I'm assuming a limiter would also help guarantee that peaks would not hit my IEM. Stuff like wolf whistles would absolutely kill me. I do plan to have a constant pink noise sound to help keep the ringing at bay. (Pink noise is the only way I can sleep through the night). I really don't care how morphed my own IEM comes out - I just need certain frequencies gone. Tinnitus sucks.
 
With low frequencies being omnidirectional, is there any way to create a dead zone, even slightly, from them? I'm thinking that if I positioned myself next to a plexiglass drum shield on my left, a moving blanket wall (prop of some kind) on my right (edge of stage) and a moving blanket behind me, also covered as a prop, that would reduce noise. I just don't know if it would reduce low frequency. Thoughts?
 
With low frequencies being omnidirectional, is there any way to create a dead zone, even slightly, from them? I'm thinking that if I positioned myself next to a plexiglass drum shield on my left, a moving blanket wall (prop of some kind) on my right (edge of stage) and a moving blanket behind me, also covered as a prop, that would reduce noise. I just don't know if it would reduce low frequency. Thoughts?

There are ways to create directional arrays of subwoofers for the PA but I doubt they'd be practical on stage, besides, with e-drums (get a throne shaker), modeling guitar and bass guitar processors, direct keyboard inputs, IEMS... there's not much left to make much noise, let alone any appreciable LF content on the deck.

How much LF the PA system puts on the deck (and at what fundamental frequency) depends on where the subs are and if they're positioned left/right, how far apart they are. If the stage resonates it will increase the perception of LF. Subs clustered down front center will cover the audience more evenly but put half their radiated energy right onto the stage. The left/right deployment creates a "power alley" down the middle between them, with adjacent cancellation nodes, with adjacent lobes... and that center power alley includes the stage. We did a show for a former Doobie Brothers singer and his piano bench was on the SL edge of the power alley. We added delay to the SR subs to move the lobe from beneath his butt... he'd have been mondo-unhappy if the subs tickled his keister all night.

LF waves are long and you need at least 1 wave length for a barrier to work and Helmholtz resonators need at least 1/4 wave length in the smallest dimension. Not practical but probably not needed in the scenario you are proposing.

While all SPL aggravates you tinnitus, what you probably find most irritating or painful is in the loud snare drum and lead guitar spectrum. Rather than speculation, though, you should probably discuss this with your audiologist. You'll need ear molds for your IEMs anyway so set an appointment to get his/her professional opinion.
 
The unspoken reality here is that if you're a rock group, an electronic kit is more than just a choice to protect your ears. It's an an artistic choice that is outside of the mainstream. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but an acoustic kit has an inherent ability at getting a crowd going. An electronic kit is alien in comparison, especially if the PA can't fully replicate the energy of an acoustic kit. Then all you've got is a guy paddling away at stuff with headphones on.

To get your crowds into your act, you'll probably need to compensate with charisma, showmanship, and musical finesse to make up for that natural energy you'd otherwise have from an acoustic kit.

Add the IEM's into this mix, and you as the performer really are in a different world from your audience. If you're playing bars and small gigs, this is really going to hamstring you because in those small spaces musicians feed off of the on-stage energy and the energy from their audience and you've basically put a wall up between you and them.
 
The unspoken reality here is that if you're a rock group, an electronic kit is more than just a choice to protect your ears. It's an an artistic choice that is outside of the mainstream. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but an acoustic kit has an inherent ability at getting a crowd going. An electronic kit is alien in comparison, especially if the PA can't fully replicate the energy of an acoustic kit. Then all you've got is a guy paddling away at stuff with headphones on.

To get your crowds into your act, you'll probably need to compensate with charisma, showmanship, and musical finesse to make up for that natural energy you'd otherwise have from an acoustic kit.

Add the IEM's into this mix, and you as the performer really are in a different world from your audience. If you're playing bars and small gigs, this is really going to hamstring you because in those small spaces musicians feed off of the on-stage energy and the energy from their audience and you've basically put a wall up between you and them.

And then there's that.... Mike, you deftly point out that just because something can be done, does not mean it should be done.
 

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