Cues & Submasters

[bane]

This questions might have been posted elsewhere on CB. But I seem to have a hard time finding it. So if I am repeating, I am extremely sorry!

We own an ETC Ion at our school and I am trying to build a cue sheet for an upcoming dance show using standard light. So no moving lights or any of that cool stuff.

Given that we have 192 dimmers, the easiest way to build cues is to program different looks (specials, cyc colors, washes, etc) on submasters, set the look using the same submasters and then record the look into a cue. That part is easy enough. What has been frustrating me though is, I can't seem to find an equivalent to what is the release button is the Express. Basically as soon as I record a cue, it executes it immediately and the only way I can seem to then change the look is by manually bringing down all the lights or by going to a blackout cue and then use the submasters again to set the look so that I can record my next one. It's frustrating mostly because I feel like I can design faster if there's an easier way (something that has less clicks/steps) to set all my channels to 0 after every cue I record.

I do understand the concept of tracking. And I guess one way to solve the above problem would be to just keep track of the channels I am using and then decrease/increase their intensities accordingly and then program them into the following cue. Except, as I mentioned earlier, we have 192 dimmers and we do a 1 to 1 patch. So I am almost always working with 192 channels, and most shows I work don't offer me enough time to patch properly or even note down the channels for each look.

So it basically comes down to, what would be the easiest way to program cues using submasters on the Ion?


Any help once again would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

[rochem]

I'm not 100% clear on what you're asking, so I'm going to address it in two parts:

1). The Ion "equivalent" to Release on an Express is the SNEAK command. Technically, what this does is restore everything to the last saved state - so for example, if you're in a cue and you make a bunch of changes but don't record, the SNEAK command will take you back to what that cue looked like when you last saved it. However, if I'm reading correctly, this isn't what you want anyway, so that may not help.

2). I think your biggest problem here lies in the fact that you're not using the console to its full potential. For one, by using a 1-to-1 patch, you're doing yourself a huge disservice and robbing yourself of some of the capabilities of the console. Programming is so much easier when you can bring up frontlight with channels 1 through 5, rather than channels 69, 75, 78, 144, and 161. However, I know that some high school shows just don't allow the time or planning required to create an individual patch for each show, so I understand this.

Another point is that by programming with the submasters, you're making things much more difficult for yourself. While the submasters are nice, modern lighting consoles are designed to be programmed from the keypad, plain and simple. It takes some getting used to, but you will find that programming with the keypad ends up being much faster than programming off submasters could ever be. However, this ties in with the 1-to-1 patching issue, in that keypad programming does require you to know individual channel numbers, which can become very tedious without a logical patch in place.

Stepping off my soapbox, I would say the easiest way to do this would be to change all of your Submasters from HTP (Highest Takes Precedence) to LTP (Latest Takes Precedence). Here's a quick example of the differences, using the Express since you seem to have familiarity with that console. Imagine that you have pushed one of the individual channel faders halfway up, so now that channel reads 50% on the monitor. Now, you push up a submaster that includes that channel to a level above that, say 75%. If you watch the monitor, the level of that channel stays the same until the submaster passes 50%, then the level is effectively "owned" by the submaster. When you pull the submaster back down, the level also goes down until you reach 50%, when the channel fader "takes control" of the channel, which stays at 50%. This is Highest Takes Precedence (HTP), meaning that if a channel is receiving multiple instructions, it will always defer to whichever is the highest. HTP is almost always seen on conventional instruments, where 100% is numerically "greater" than 0%. Latest Takes Precedence (LTP), in contrast, will always defer to the most recent instruction given to it, whether that be higher or lower than the previous value held. This is most commonly seen in Moving Light attributes and other cases where one value is not "greater" than another - Red is not "greater" than Green, Construction Breakup gobo is not "greater" than Linear Breakup gobo, and so on. Your problem now is that you are recording your submasters into a cue, but then when you try to pull them down, the channel defaults to the highest level, which you just recorded into a cue. By changing your submasters to LTP, the channel would respond to your submaster as soon as you pull it down, because that would be the most recent instruction it received.

Changing this mode is easy, but it must be individually done for each submaster. Type <sub>[#], then the softkey labeled {HTP/LTP} (Softkey 3, if memory serves) to toggle the mode from HTP to LTP. All intensity submasters are created as HTP by default, so you'll need to do this for every submaster you create.

Hope that helps!</sub>

 

[MNicolai]

I'll avoid the nitty-gritty about Ion; I'm a Congo guy myself, but I've seen this question about the Rel key not being included in the Ion a number of times before. I think you'll find the some helpful information here. You can also find a gross amount of Ion training videos on YouTube that ETC has provided.

Videos that might help you:
Cue Only vs. Tracking
Cues & Submasters
Sub Playback

If I've not fully answered your question, there's a lot of Ion users here at CB who will see this later in the day and I'm sure will provide their input.

 

[derekleffew]

I think it was the great sclausenETC who coined (or at least perpetuated) the phrase:
[Sneak] [Enter] is the new [Release]

One can use [Sneak] with [CH], [Group], <sub>, and [Cue].

Another thing that may help: One can use a Sub as a Group: [Group]#[@] %. One can also use [Group][Cue] to grab all active channels in a cue.</sub>

 

[sclausenETC]

Hi all -

These are excellent suggestions, however the simplest one may be to turn off the setting that automatically plays back the last cue you recorded > Browser>Setup>Desk Settings>Record Defaults>AutoPlayback (make this disabled). Then the main playback won't fight with the HTP submasters while recording and it will behave essentially like an Express or Expression (in that it will not play back the cue automatically).

Or, you can make your submasters LTP instead, then you should be able to use them to adjust levels up or down.

The SNEAK ENTER thing works only when levels are selelcted and manual and assumes that you're typing on the keypad to create your looks.

I hope this helps -

Thanks!

Sarah

 

[SteveB]

"the easiest way to build cues is to program different looks (specials, cyc colors, washes, etc) on submasters, set the look using the same submasters and then record the look into a cue."

When building from Subs you butt heads with the console in a way, by needing to "release" the channels you recorded in a cue and that are now playing back (blue levels) while still retaining control with the subs. You can either do what Sarah suggests, which is to not auto-load/playback cues recorded, or you can not use subs to build cues.

The latter is my preferred method. Instead of grouping channels into subs, I build them into Groups. Note that groups don't record values, or levels for the channels, it merely is a Grab of a defined set of channels.
I then build up as many groups as I had subs (or more in some cases). I also open a Direct Select page - "Display-Virtual Controls-5x10 Direct Select Module-Open in lower left of console display" - which actually opens it on the right monitor). This puts on a screen a set of buttons that should be 5 rows of 10. I press the Select button on the DS page (either using the touch screen or using a mouse) to see the Groups. I will now have all my Groups on the screen. I also label my Groups - "FNT Amb", or Bax Red", or "Cyc Red" (Syntax is "Group, XX, Label").

Now instead of building cues using the Subs, I'll press the Group I want up - "FNT Amb" and then use the level wheel to bring that Group of channels to a level. I repeat with any other Groups as desired and Record to a cue. All the recorded levels now display in Blue. If I want to adjust the Back Reds, I press the Group "Bax Red". The channels in that Group now highlight the tombstones (or tiles) and I can see what levels they're at and use the wheel or @ XX Enter to take them to a new level, for updating or re-recording.

One of the nice things about Groups is you can leave Auto Playback enabled to save time and not need to either clear the fader of the cue to retain Sub control. You also don't have to clear the subs to see the recorded levels played back.

Lot's of add'l tricks. You can assign channels to multiple groups just like you can to subs. Because Groups don't record levels/values, when you modify a recorded set of channels using groups, any proportional levels stay proportional - I.E. if Channel 1 &2 are in Group 1 and at Full, but you have modified Ch 2 to be at 75% with Ch 1 at Full, when you Group adjust down to a lower level, those channels keep that proportion.

Other tricks are when you want to see what levels a Group is at, you simply press the Group on screen with no other action. The channel tiles will highlight in Gold to make it easier to see.

Note as well that using Direct Selects, you can also label the channels themselves. In Patch you can use "Channel 1 Label FNT Amb Enter". If you select Channels on the Direct Select screen, all your channels now have labels, should you choose to build up cues directly using channels. Remember as well that if you open a 2nd Direct select screen on a 2nd monitor or in a Tab, you can have Channels and Groups at the same time.

 

[JWigPVB]

"the easiest way to build cues is to program different looks (specials, cyc colors, washes, etc) on submasters, set the look using the same submasters and then record the look into a cue."

When building from Subs you butt heads with the console in a way, by needing to "release" the channels you recorded in a cue and that are now playing back (blue levels) while still retaining control with the subs. You can either do what Sarah suggests, which is to not auto-load/playback cues recorded, or you can not use subs to build cues.

The latter is my preferred method. Instead of grouping channels into subs, I build them into Groups. Note that groups don't record values, or levels for the channels, it merely is a Grab of a defined set of channels.
I then build up as many groups as I had subs (or more in some cases). I also open a Direct Select page - "Display-Virtual Controls-5x10 Direct Select Module-Open in lower left of console display" - which actually opens it on the right monitor). This puts on a screen a set of buttons that should be 5 rows of 10. I press the Select button on the DS page (either using the touch screen or using a mouse) to see the Groups. I will now have all my Groups on the screen. I also label my Groups - "FNT Amb", or Bax Red", or "Cyc Red" (Syntax is "Group, XX, Label").

Now instead of building cues using the Subs, I'll press the Group I want up - "FNT Amb" and then use the level wheel to bring that Group of channels to a level. I repeat with any other Groups as desired and Record to a cue. All the recorded levels now display in Blue. If I want to adjust the Back Reds, I press the Group "Bax Red". The channels in that Group now highlight the tombstones (or tiles) and I can see what levels they're at and use the wheel or @ XX Enter to take them to a new level, for updating or re-recording.

One of the nice things about Groups is you can leave Auto Playback enabled to save time and not need to either clear the fader of the cue to retain Sub control. You also don't have to clear the subs to see the recorded levels played back.

Lot's of add'l tricks. You can assign channels to multiple groups just like you can to subs. Because Groups don't record levels/values, when you modify a recorded set of channels using groups, any proportional levels stay proportional - I.E. if Channel 1 &2 are in Group 1 and at Full, but you have modified Ch 2 to be at 75% with Ch 1 at Full, when you Group adjust down to a lower level, those channels keep that proportion.

Other tricks are when you want to see what levels a Group is at, you simply press the Group on screen with no other action. The channel tiles will highlight in Gold to make it easier to see.

Note as well that using Direct Selects, you can also label the channels themselves. In Patch you can use "Channel 1 Label FNT Amb Enter". If you select Channels on the Direct Select screen, all your channels now have labels, should you choose to build up cues directly using channels. Remember as well that if you open a 2nd Direct select screen on a 2nd monitor or in a Tab, you can have Channels and Groups at the same time.

Agree strongly with using groups instead of submasters. We do that on our Element all the time. Now I have to see if we have the same cool Direct Select functionality on our board as Steve does on his!!! I love Control Booth!

 

[sk8rsdad]

Remember that [Group] _{can give you the best of both worlds, since subs can be treated as groups, as can any palette or preset.
Another really useful key is [Recall From] which lets you pull from any sub, palette, preset or cue and apply proportional levels. [Recall From]1[at]5[Enter] pulls in all the channels recorded on Sub 1 at half their recorded intensity.}

 

[CBJ]

I wanted to add my two-cents as I'm in a very similar situation at a high school. Just for posterity.

It seems like the general consensus seems to be to use groups, however, I disagree with that strongly in the case mentioned above. The greatest thing about the ION is its versatility, and while the experienced programmer can type faster then pull up a sub-master, during the day when I'm teching during class, and running sound, and signing passes for kids to go the library, etc. There's no way typing is the preferred method.

What I do is this:
1) Much like you I program my washes, and systems into my submasters just like i would with groups.
Tip: Treat your submasters like groups. Try not to overlap channels, but I have advice below if you do.
2) Set levels with your submasters.
3) Record your cue and bring all of your sub-masters down.
4) To make changes, use the button above the bump button. This will make that Sub a group and you can then manipulate from there by either keypad or by the wheel. It will enter [Group]<sub>[x] into the command line.
Tip: If you do have overlapping channels from one sub to the next, don't forget your [-] except button. i.e. A stage look with the red cyc in sub 1, and just the red cyc in sub 11, you can [Group+Sub][1][-][Group+Sub][11] and it will only modify the stage look and not the red cyc.

Tip: Easy way to track down channels, particularly if you are 1-to-1, use your [Group+Sub] button, the next and last. It'll let you go through each light in that sub just like it was a group.

Overall, everyone's sentiment is correct. The more planning and organization time you put into the ION the more it gives you back. I promise if you start organizing a little bit it will either start saving you time.... or allow you to do more with the limited time you already have.

I started at a Performing Arts School in the middle of the school year, so I didn't have time to break everything down and start from scratch. I did about 10 minutes of organizational work with every show (which was about every other day) and kept building on what I had done. I do have a ton of groups programmed in now, but I still use the submasters as more than half of what I do is lights up, lights down or "we need 20 different looks for our show. Let's open the house in 2 minutes!"

Hope this helps!</sub>

 

[jlankheet]

My suggestion for starting a whole new look on stage without going to black is the RemDim button. Say you finished one look, and you want to start a new look with ch 1-5 at FL, you would type [1][Thru][5][@][FL][RemDim][Enter]. This will bring up channels 1-5 at FL, while releasing every other value you have up.