Customer Service/Gel Swatchbooks

photoatdv

Active Member
I was working on a design tonight and realized I don't have a rosco (my preferred brand of gel) swatch book around. Then I remember when I ordered the swatch books a few weeks ago I couldn't find a link to order theirs... so I go to their website to look at the online one. I happen to notice a new order link. Click on the link and go to a page saying you may only select one of the swatch books and they'll charge you $7.50 s&h!

Every OTHER gel manufacturer sends free swatch books. Since I happened to have an Apollo swatch book here (which they promptly sent when I requested it... for free), I decided I'm going with Apollo for this show.

It just irks me that they want to charge for it. Maybe I'll get over it and go back, but for the moment I'll be getting Apollo and Lee gel...

Hint to anyone from Rosco on here... bad idea!

EDIT: John came to the rescue! I got the swatchbooks from him in less than a week. Thank you! Rosco, you have good dealers...
 
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If I remember correctly, they changed it when they realized a lot of photographers were ordering the swatch book for gelling their hotshoes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Good memory, Arez. From this thread Rosco Swatchbook:
Hi all,
This is my first post here, so bare with, it’s a bit long…. It is true we have been inundated with swatch book request, which would generally be FABULOUS, however they are from outside of the lighting community thanks to blogging on the world wide web and a magazines who posts pages on "freebies" for scrapbooking or flash photography. Both would seem to be a nice ancillary market for gel, but what they are generally doing is getting free swatch books, taking only a few samples out and throwing the rest away. When they need more, they get another swatch book because we sent them out free of charge. This has been increasing monthly for the last year and a half and although we’ve increased our staff and production schedule to include weekends, it hasn’t been enough to supply the design community AND the scrap bookers or flash photographers. It’s impacted us more than the other gel companies simply because our name was out there first and spread like wildfire. One blog post has 50,000 readers and I think we've heard from most of them. :)
To top it off we have been adding (GREAT) new colors and encouraging the lighting community to update their swatch books. Please know we absolutely want you to have the tools you need. Our first priority is to supply the lighting community with a swatch book – and you have to see #302 Pale Bastard Amber. We are implementing more processes as I write this. If you are unable to get a swatch book from your local dealer, please email me! We try to keep dealers well stocked with them. If you are a teacher, please email me so we can add you to our Teaching Tools mailing. We have a bi-yearly program where we will mail you Teaching Tools, including enough swatch books for the semester. As always, swatch books will be available at any Trade Show we're attending.
I apologize for the long blog. As you can probably guess, I take this issue pretty seriously. Thank you for your patience and understanding. And thank you to Derek for the invite!

Amé Strong
Color Filter Products Manager
Ph. 203-708-8900 x 263
Direct 408-826-4669
Mobile 702-327-1500

Yes, it's sad that Rosco has decided to start charging a nominal fee to cover their expenses, but I'd rather they do that than penalize those of us who pick up swatchbooks from tradeshows and our local dealers than raise prices on all products.

Anyone heard from Ame lately?
 
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derekleffew's post and quote is accurate and I would like to emphasize that all Rosco swatchbooks are still available free of charge from your local (or national) dealer. If you don't have a preferred local dealer, feel free to send me an Email at john_at_fullcompass_dot_com and I will make sure we get one out to you right away. Certainly not saying that you shouldn't use Apollo gel, I am a big fan myself, but I also want to make sure that Rosco's reputation stays intact.

Best,
John
 
Thanks John. I guess that makes sense... it's a lot harder (and less likely) that these photographers and scrap book people will call a distributor and ask for one than fill out a form on Rosco's website.

I will send you an email shortly. I love a few colors of Rosco gels that I just can't find an equivalent!
 
Just to note, Lee also charges for their swatchbooks to be sent directly. Oh how times have changed.

Direct from Lee's contact page:
"For Swatch Books please visit your local dealer visit us at a trade show or click here to order one directly: There is a fee of $6.95 for orders in the states; 10.95 worldwide. The links will open in new window."
 
If you have even the slightest relationship with your dealer, they'll send you one for free. Online pay for orders are just to stop people who are abusing the system.
 
What bothers me is not just that Rosco and Lee charge S&H, but that Rosco says after you file your order that it could take 6+ weeks to get them shipped to you. I had to order another Rosco book a few weeks ago and will probably still be waiting another several weeks.

My most recent Lee book came from a distributor outside of Lee Filters (Filmtools.com?) and they actually had a swatch to me in about a week. They still charged S&H, but at least I paid for S&H and knew it would show up this month.

I understand that companies have overhead they need to cover one way or another, but it's a flawed marketing model to charge for the swatches. I was talking with someone about this a few days ago and my exact words were:
It's hardly a big thing at at all, the $7.50 for S&H, but that $7.50 is telling someone you've got a great product, but they can't see how great it is for themselves until they pay a fee.

After my recent encounter trying to get my hands on additional swatch books, I took some extra time to thank Kelite for not charging S&H on Apollo swatches. In a given year, I don't know that I purchase tons of stuff from Apollo, Rosco, GAM, or Lee. We mainly pull from our existing gel inventory, but having realized how nice it is to have a face to a company here on the CB forums who is easy to contact, I think I'm now much more likely to purchase Apollo gels and lighting accessories. Most of my items on my next big purchase have been spec'ed as Apollo items for that reason.

Some marketing advice for companies thinking of charging me to see how great their products are: don't. If I'm desperate, I'll bite. Let's face it, I'll still have to buy some Lee and Rosco gels. But in most situations I won't waste my time spending money just to look at someone's product. If companies charged fees for their catalogs and mailings, I bet that'd be a really easy marketing model to maintain -- they'd spend a lot less money on all of that, but they'd also only have a fraction of the number of people looking at their catalogs and subsequently buying their products.

Telling me you've got a really cool thing I might be interested in, then asking me to pay to just to look at it, all sounds like a bad trick played on naive 7-year olds by fifth-grade bullies. I like to think I'm past that phase of my life now.

If you have even the slightest relationship with your dealer, they'll send you one for free. Online pay for orders are just to stop people who are abusing the system.
Yea, I could, but I bother him already about 2-4 times a week on pricing things out for me and working on projects of mine. If I can go to someone else for the simple sake of not taking even more time out of his week, I'd prefer doing that, even if it costs me a couple bucks.
 
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Yea, I could, but I bother him already about 2-4 times a week on pricing things out for me and working on projects of mine. If I can go to someone else for the simple sake of not taking even more time out of his week, I'd prefer doing that, even if it costs me a couple bucks.

Its not that huge of a deal for them. They are there to get you what you need. When you buy thousands of dollars of stuff from one dealer they can bend a little. I have had the head of sales for BMI drive one sheet of gel to the nearest interstate exit to meet me because it was left out of an order. No, they don't make any money sending you swatch books or really make any money selling lamps or gel, but when you are going to buy that new lighting console or in my case replace all of your soft goods you will go to them because they were there for you. These shops are all about tromping through the expendables in order to get the larger sales. They get the swatch books for free and postage is cheap.
 
Yea, I could, but I bother him already about 2-4 times a week on pricing things out for me and working on projects of mine. If I can go to someone else for the simple sake of not taking even more time out of his week, I'd prefer doing that, even if it costs me a couple bucks.

I dont feel bad about it. Last time I was at the warehouse with our supplier, we chatted for about 30 minutes or so about random things. They can take the 5 seconds to walk to the back room and pick up a swatch book from every gel maker in the country. Who knows, maybe you will buy different/more gel because of what you see in the swatch book?
 
Once got a used "Designer" Rosco swatch book from Design Lab Chicago for free. It was missing a few gels. Larger sized and I think Rosco has stopped making them as they were perfect in size for something between a Inkie and MR-16 in gel size. Yep, that's what I used it for and it became.

Agreed with the above, never had to pay for a swatch book from a dealer, just as sugguested retail price is often sugguested if direct thru the manufacturer over that of a distributer. On the other hand, perhaps paying a few bucks for a swatch book isn't a bad thing in something that couldn't be afforded. You pay for drafting templates don't you? Or perhaps not if Auto Cadd. Put it another way, remember paying for a sample kit for paint, forget what it was... for Iddings sample or FX paint but the sample was sufficient for the project. Also in like '98 remember having paid a few hundred dollars for a copy of Sweet's Group for like an encyclopedia of free catalogues that paid them so as to get published with them. For lamps as an example, only Philips paid to have their free catalogue in the encyclopedia the end users paid to get. Still though it was a good resource in things available and ideas. Often listed on such catalogues is a resale value, normally it's a free catalogue but money to do so is valid. Got a few swatch books say from rubber dynometer density or squishyness to hardware cloth like samples. Had to pay for them in getting but in now having them I can often replace at less a price what the manufacturer might sell me as a finished product for more cost.

Gel sample swatch books should be free or nominal charge perhaps, but in the end your use is professional use of it and just as with any other swatch book given the above, might be worth paying a nominal fee for at some point.


"and realized I don't have a rosco (my preferred brand of gel) swatch book around." Means to me you need more than a few available to each and every customer or in having one or a few swatch books, it's either not worth your effort so as to ensure as with gathering other stuff that swatch book or it's not important enough to you to ensure you say have one for work and one for home. Beyond that, it's the vendor's fault that no matter how many free sample kits they make available to you.. you didn't have another where you were a the time. Been there, done that myself but I didn't blame the vendor especially if going on line to them to out of the blue to them asking instead of going to your supplier or company you left your swatches with in asking to ship them.

Where is your preferred brand of swatch book at this point? Rosco of course should pay to send you another free sample thus otherwise you will change brands.

Sorry, not geting the arguement in seeing such things perfectly free thru suppliers normally and even should be for sale. After that in if you already had one but forgot it somewhere, just as if you fogot your C-Wrench somewhere and were no longer useful for the crew, you go home or sweep the floor at best. Not seeing a Rosco problem here if in contacting them directly they want to charge for it. I think samples books shouldn't be free. Save a few cents per gel in the next price raise and charge for the samples made up from them.
 
Ship, I wasn't blaming them for having left it at work/home for the day/night. I've been looking for one from Rosco for a while. I recently switched theatres and left them there...last project I just used the online "swatchbook" because i hadn't gotten around to ordering a new one (my fault).... then had gone online 2-3 times before this happened (that I posted about) and couldn't even find a working link to order one (dunno... I spent at least 30 minutes searching their website). So then when I had a design project come up that required enough gels in colors I'm not familiar with off the top of my head, and went onto the online swatchbook... inadvertently found the order form and found out they were charging, I got frustrated.

It's all been taken care of now though. It was more of an observation that company A (in this case Apollo) was REALLY helpful and made ordering it easy and company B (in this case Rosco) made it confusing, hard, and cost money. So I went with company A, though I usually use company B. In other words those kind of things to make a difference to me.
 
Each of you posting has raised valid points, each with merit. The situation taken from a manufacturer's perspective can actually extend beyond that of a gel swatchbook, rather to that of a business model. Since the debate can/will continue whether or not there really is a free lunch, the simple truth is this- someone will eventually pay for a free sample/catalog/T-shirt/swatchbook/whatever. In some cases the end-user sees higher pricing in a product segment or perhaps an entire brand's offerings. In other cases the manufacturer has budgeted the cost of said sample/catalog/T-shirt/swatchbook/whatever to 'the cost of doing business' and sees the long term value in supporting the end user.

"You say potato, I say potato; you say tomato, I say tomato."

We can each ask ourselves: 'Who will support me, and to what extent?' And hopefully we'll have a long list of valued dealers and manufacturers with their hands in the air saying "Pick me! Pick me!"
 
This seems to me like it's really just a change in distribution model. Rosco still wants us to get the gel samples. They are just tired of giving it away to people who will never purchase the real product. For those of us in large cities it's no big deal because our dealer has a big basket on the counter and he's only 10 minutes away. So it really only hurts you guys who are two hours drive from your "local" dealer. Once again, the lesson here is to develop a relationship with a specific sales person, at a specific dealer, whom you deal with all the time (not just buying the cheapest price on the net). When you have a good dealer-customer relationship, it's no big deal to call up your guy and ask him to send you a couple books... even if he is located in Denver and you are in Nowhere, Iowa.

...the simple truth is this- someone will eventually pay for a free sample/catalog/T-shirt/swatchbook/whatever. In some cases the end-user sees higher pricing in a product segment or perhaps an entire brand's offerings.

How much would the cost of Apollo Gel go up in order to give us a pack of Cinnamon gum with every order?
 
I find it somewhat humorous to compare business models of Rosco and Lee vs. Nemetchek.

A lighting student who has zero contacts at lighting shops is told by Rosco that the cost is $7.50 for shipping a SINGLE gel swatch book, which is probably about $4 - $5 worth of profit above the shipping costs. All for a gel book that probably costs about a buck, at best, to manufacture.

A lighting student wanting an industry standard CAD program (worth $2000 for a full blown version) can get a FREE student/educational version simply by proving they are a student and intend to use it in a educational environment for a few years.

At the Lee website, I could not even find a way to get a gel book and they seemingly want you to use the on-line version, which (rant ON) IS NOT THE SAME AS LOOKING AT A REAL SAMPLE UNDER APPROPRIATE LIGHTING !. They should be ashamed of themselves !.

EDIT: Lee charges $6.95 ea.

While gel books from Apollo and GAM are free.

Mind you that all the manufacturers are constantly adding filters and WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT !. Thus you do need to constantly upgrade to new books and I am not paying for a gel book.

Whose gels is the student likely to start getting familar with and will go to in future designs ?. Hell, I'm a professional and whose gels do you think I'm going to use more often ?

Anybody from Rosco and Lee paying attention here ?.
 
Anybody from Rosco and Lee paying attention here ?.

I do see Rosco's issue though. When you google "rosco gel book" and get results such as this, I can agree with them. For the students out there, BMI and Production Advantage LOVE to hear from students. One email to them and you can have a swatch book in 3 days. I asked for a few for my students last year from Production Advantage and I got 30 lee books, 30 Apollo books, 30 gam books, and 30 rosco books along with gobo books and some great posters from Selecon.

The freebie websites that pop up on digg or the scrapbookers websites are a power to be dealt with. These groups will sign up for anything that is free and when a site that has something free gets dugg/slashdoted they can easily get 10,000 requests overnight.

Apollo has always been big supporters of students and it is really starting to pay off for them. I can't tell you how many of the little packets that had a random gobo and a piece of perf gel they gave out at USITT myself and my friends I went to college with grabbed. We trippled out gobo stock at our university with those things. However,
if the word got out that Apollo was giving out free little boxes of stuff to the scrapbookers and the people on dig, 10,000 people would request one and the program would get killed.

Dealers do not pay for the swatch books. Students should be OK with calling dealers. In college we had to call lighting companies to get rental rates for fake shows we were designing. We had to present budgets with our design. We told the companies up front that this was a fake project. The companies that worked with us anyway got a leg up. When we had an actual design to do you better believe I called that company to rent whatever I needed to rent instead of the one that did not talk to me. Its in the dealers best interest to spend the 1.00 on shipping and 5 minutes of time to get someone who could be a future customer.
 
It is very difficult to play nicely with people who do business like this...

(From the link Footer posted)
They certainly will [send you a swatchbook,] especially if you 'lead them on' to believe that you are starting a huge job, have a large expendable budget, and need to figure out what colors, corrections, and diffusion you want to purchase.

And, a bit of advice.

Don't settle for the swatch, unless that's what you want.

Ask for the Rosco Light Lab Gel Book.

For the record, I do agree that we probably should pay for them. This completely contradicts what I said before, but Ship's point is bullet-proof and I have to agree with him. We pay for drafting templates (usually a heck of a lot more than a piece of plastic with holes in it is actually worth) and we pay for fabric samples. Granted, we've been conditioned to expect to gel swatches for free. The fact that some no longer offer that -- at least not without going through other channels -- is less a mark on them, but gives us far more reasons to appreciate those companies that still do provide them without complication.

I probably will go directly to my dealer from now on because not only will Rosco and Lee charge, but Rosco has additionally proven they are ill-equipped to provide swatches for those people who have paid for them. I understand if they want to charge for them, and more than just S&H, but for the actual product -- but if I'm paying for it, I want it on my doorstep within a week. Hang ups and factory delays are understandable, so in some cases I'll give them more than a week, but three months is out of control.

There's another piece to this equation, though, which is that I know Keith and Melissa at Apollo. I wouldn't say I know either of them especially well, but I've contacted them personally on the forums, via Twitter, for the Design-A-Gobo contest, and they provide to me a face for the company that's easy to contact. In the last two weeks, I've received two emails from Melissa; one to acknowledge my request for marketing materials, and a follow-up to make certain they arrived and that there wasn't anything else I needed (or if there was, she also let me know I could contact her directly).

I can't think of any other manufacturer besides ETC and Nemetschek where I have that kind of access to a real person. It's weird to think about, but if someone asks me what I know about Apollo, I immediately think "Keith and Melissa." And while part of me hopes Apollo prospers, grows, and becomes even more awesome, I hope they never grow to a point where they lose that contact with their customers. In the meanwhile, if I can buy a primary red gel from Rosco, or a primary red gel from Apollo, at the same exact price, yea, I'm going to lean towards Apollo for no other reason than I like them more.
 
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I'd rather not pay for photo people to get free gels!
Let's see, in arms reach I have....
4x Rosco books, an apollo book, a gam book and a lee book.

hmm. I should scatter those around so I always have one... maybe one in the bag, one in the car... moral of the story, if you don't have a gel book you are doing something wrong.

Also Kelite, is there even an apollo dealer in STL?
 

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