Control/Dimming Default fade timing

Crisp image

Well-Known Member
Good morning all,
I have a question about default fade timings for consoles/software such as ETC ION, MagicQ and M-PC.
The default fade times are set at 5 sec. I know I can change the default but my question is why such a long fade?
I have done one fade at 8 seconds but that was just one, and others snap.
Is the default timing a reasonable time? I guess it depends on the LD and what they want? I would have thought 1 or 2 seconds would be quite long enough.
I am from a music theatre company so that would influence my question and statements. When i was doing video productions (at home) a cross fade of 1 sec was a long time. Look at how long they do it on TV for a sample. even 1/2 second is a long time in video.
I look forward to the discussions
Regards
Crisp image
 
its just a starting point. you can make it whatever. I end up usually using 3 seconds for a lot of what I do if it fades, but I've had fades that are upwards of 2 minutes. It all depends on the show, the scene and the mood/image you're going for.
 
Good morning all,
I have a question about default fade timings for consoles/software such as ETC ION, MagicQ and M-PC.
The default fade times are set at 5 sec. I know I can change the default but my question is why such a long fade?
I have done one fade at 8 seconds but that was just one, and others snap.
Is the default timing a reasonable time? I guess it depends on the LD and what they want? I would have thought 1 or 2 seconds would be quite long enough.
I am from a music theatre company so that would influence my question and statements. When i was doing video productions (at home) a cross fade of 1 sec was a long time. Look at how long they do it on TV for a sample. even 1/2 second is a long time in video.
I look forward to the discussions
Regards
Crisp image
@Crisp image @josh88 In support and agreement. Lots of points to ponder.
You're comparing video fades with lighting fades, there are similarities and differences.
Among these, in video you have essentially complete control, when you fade out, the image is gone. Typically in stage work, when you fade out, the audience can normally still see the image to some degree due to ambient light and depending upon how long you leave them in dark for their eyes to adjust.
Blathering away in random order:
I've done fades less than a second, typically when I wanted to go to black as quickly as possible and especially in the era of incandescent lamps where the lag time of the filament cooling was an appreciable amount of time. I've also done fades in excess of 45 minutes where I've wanted the lighting outside a window to coast down from afternoon into evening or the darkness of night neither calling attention from the performers nor to itself. I just want it to fade down without attracting attention such that by the time the dialogue mentions how dark it is outside, the lighting fits the situation without having caused any distraction.
From a totally different perspective, usually when functioning solely as the board operator / programmer and working with LD's and SM's who MAY be slightly less than perfect, I've intentionally programmed my default as "2.9 up / 3.1 down". Why on earth would I do that? BECAUSE. Several reasons.
1; It's basically a three count. If it's unexpectedly taking you to black, at least folks get a touch of warning and can hold their positions rather than getting hurt. If it's unexpectedly taking you to a FULL UP, like coming up for a second bow, it's a little easier on the eyes and those poor aging FEL filaments.
BIGGEST REASON: It occupies so much screen real estate, looks so stupid and CALLS ATTENTION TO ITSELF, every time you feel compelled to mention to an LD / SM / AD [whomever] that they've forgotten to give you a fade time for a cue and they keep insisting that they've already told you a zero, or a 3 or a 10 or WHATEVER, you've got this obviously bizarre time right there on their screens to remind them they failed to assign a time. It's usually right about then, you hear the AD reading his penciled notation to the LD who's reading his penciled scratching to the SM who's reaching for her eraser as the three of them notice YOU just may be correct and they mutter to themselves as they try to determine what the actual time should've been. 2.9 / 3.1 was my very fav' default for well over two decades.
Bottom Line: Make the board and its defaults work for YOU, not the other way around.
I'll relinquish the lectern and descend from the podium.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Good morning all,
I have a question about default fade timings for consoles/software such as ETC ION, MagicQ and M-PC.
The default fade times are set at 5 sec. I know I can change the default but my question is why such a long fade?
I have done one fade at 8 seconds but that was just one, and others snap.
Is the default timing a reasonable time? I guess it depends on the LD and what they want? I would have thought 1 or 2 seconds would be quite long enough.
I am from a music theatre company so that would influence my question and statements. When i was doing video productions (at home) a cross fade of 1 sec was a long time. Look at how long they do it on TV for a sample. even 1/2 second is a long time in video.
I look forward to the discussions
Regards
Crisp image

I was doing on camera 8 and 15 second fades last Thursday. It was what the director wanted.

As to defaults ?, set them to whatever you want, or what the LD prefers.
 
I agree with what has been mentioned before. It's really a personal preference/tool in the toolkit for lighting a show. When I program, one of the first questions I ask the designer is how long they want the default fade time to be. For me, as a designer, I typically start with either 3.1 seconds or 5.1 seconds as my default depending on the pace of the show. Just like Ron, the .1 comes in handy so I know which cues I've changed the times on and which ones I've really wanted to stay at whatever the default time is (by setting to 5 instead of 5.1). Lest otherwise during first dress I may start messing with a good thing! The important thing to remember is that it's a starting point. Just because your default is 5 seconds it doesn't mean every cue in your show has to be 5 seconds. Each moment is unique and as such each supporting element should match in uniqueness.
 
I see a LOT of 3 and 5 second fades. and a LOT of split time fades.
Like with Ron I've done everything from snaps (0 seconds) and .1 to .5 second fades to 1 minuite fades in the same show. The longest fade I've ever done for a typical show was 43 minutes long. I have done for an on stage charity dinner a 2 hour fade.

It really depends.

Your typical transition fade time in music theatre and theatre tends to fall between 2 and 5 seconds.

For video this would be painful, but on stage it just feels right. Snaps are usually kept for when you want to quickly draw attention to something or otherwise need or want it. Such as someone throwing a lightswitch or the power going out, or hey suddenly I just appeared!

Instead of using the .1 to marker times I always keep a spreadsheet of my lighting cues beside me when I am a designer, I update fade times as I tell the operator to do so on my sheet and color code.
 
I predominantly go with 3 and 5 second fades. My workflow changes all the time, but I've found that 5 second fades are good for coming out of a long blackout or fading in/out of House Preset; and 3 second fades serve most typical needs beyond that. On occasion, I use 8 second fades if there is a particular need for it, or if I want the lighting change to be as subtle as possible. Of course, there are exceptions all over the place such as the 30-minute sunset, etc.

The last few shows I've worked on the director has wanted crossfades between a few scenes. I found myself having to slow those down a bit since the scene was almost never ready to go as soon as the other ended.

I generally avoid snap changes unless it is a design choice as @Dionysus mentioned. I find them too jarring on the eyes to use much beyond that.
 
All good comments that make sense to me. The snaps that I have done are usually one fixture on to high light something.
I find reading what others write gives me insights and reasons behind things that I have not thought of or expieranced. This is a great feature of online communities like this. A beginner can ask simple questions and get answers from real people who either do this stuff for a career and/or are passionate about the performing arts.
Thanks
Regards Geoff
 
Just to be an outlier: I semi-regularly work with a performance artist that does a lot of Butoh-inspired movement very slowly. I think the shortest fadetime I've used in one of those pieces is 30s, with a minute or more being much more common--even if the level is only changing by a few percent. It's very subtle and mesmerizing to watch.

Even for more typical performances, I'm very much a fan of a well-planned transition that effectively leads from one thing to another. I get annoyed at designers who may be good (or even very good) at creating looks for a particular scene, but then just slam the next one in your face without any warning or grace. Obviously there are times when a snap or fast fade is appropriate, but I see those more as effects than a good default. Personal opinion, of course :snooty:
 
If anything, I'd advocate for a 4.9 (or 2.9) default. Makes it much easier to know which cues have been adjusted
 
Just to be an outlier: I semi-regularly work with a performance artist that does a lot of Butoh-inspired movement very slowly. I think the shortest fadetime I've used in one of those pieces is 30s, with a minute or more being much more common--even if the level is only changing by a few percent. It's very subtle and mesmerizing to watch.

Even for more typical performances, I'm very much a fan of a well-planned transition that effectively leads from one thing to another. I get annoyed at designers who may be good (or even very good) at creating looks for a particular scene, but then just slam the next one in your face without any warning or grace. Obviously there are times when a snap or fast fade is appropriate, but I see those more as effects than a good default. Personal opinion, of course :snooty:
@Malabaristo Writing in support of what you're saying. I'm also a big fan of LXQ's that are effective WITHOUT unnecessarily calling attention to themselves. Things like a fairly sunny preset showing off the set and gauze draped windows to the set designer's advantage which fades down to a moonlit night sans practicals over the course of the 1/2 between doors and the top of the show. Then perhaps there's a zero count up to A1S1 as the maid enters turning on the light switch and turning down the star's bed or stoking her fire. One production had several ~20 minute fades which appeared to do nothing but took the edge off various portions of a scene set in a funeral home as various members of a family left the room. No one was aware the series of Q's were happening but they had the effect of focusing attention on the characters remaining. One night I received a panicked call at home advising that the lights hadn't come up for calls and decreeing I needed to come in during the next day and ensure all would be well for the next evening's performance. Went in. checked EVERYTHING. Found zero problems and / or deficiencies. Went back about an hour prior to opening and spoke with the LX operator. DISCOVERED THE DIFFERENCE. The SM, believing many of my cues served no function at all, hadn't troubled herself to call them. As the cues weren't called, they weren't executed. Gee whiz! Gollee!! Go figure!!! If you don't call the cues, you don't move on down the stack leaving the stage in an invisible "warming black out" ready to come up with minimal lag for the curtain call that they never got to. Sometimes the problems are not always in the equipment or its programming.
EDIT: In support of @danTt My favorite default was 2.9 up / 3.1 down for the same reason. There was absolutely no way any of the designers were going to program those times intentionally and they TOOK UP SO MUCH SCREEN REALESTATE that they couldn't be missed when they showed up as a default fade time in need of attention. I practically NEVER had to tell any designers or SM's that they'd failed to assign a fade time to a cue. Sometimes, even when they had their mics muted, I'd hear them on the house monitor debating times until they'd settled upon, and noted, a time and then they'd turn their mics back on and proceed to make changes often without commanding the cue be recorded, let alone designating a fade time. I'm SURE you've NEVER found yourself in that situation. [As if]
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
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@Malabaristo Writing in support of what you're saying. I'm also a big fan of LXQ's that are effective WITHOUT unnecessarily calling attention to themselves. Things like a fairly sunny preset showing off the set and gauze draped windows to the set designer's advantage which fades down to a moonlit night sans practicals over the course of the 1/2 between doors and the top of the show. Then perhaps there's a zero count up to A1S1 as the maid enters turning on the light switch and turning down the star's bed or stoking her fire. One production had several ~20 minute fades which appeared to do nothing but took the edge off various portions of a scene set in a funeral home as various members of a family left the room. No one was aware the series of Q's were happening but they had the effect of focusing attention on the characters remaining. One night I received a panicked call at home advising that the lights hadn't come up for calls and decreeing I needed to come in during the next day and ensure all would be well for the next evening's performance. Went in. checked EVERYTHING. Found zero problems and / or deficiencies. Went back about an hour prior to opening and spoke with the LX operator. DISCOVERED THE DIFFERENCE. The SM, believing many of my cues served no function at all, hadn't troubled herself to call them. As the cues weren't called, they weren't executed. Gee whiz! Gollee!! Go figure!!! If you don't call the cues, you don't move on down the stack leaving the stage in an invisible "warming black out" ready to come up with minimal lag for the curtain call that they never got to. Sometimes the problems are not always in the equipment or its programming.
EDIT: In support of @danTt My favorite default was 2.9 up / 3.1 down for the same reason. There was absolutely no way any of the designers were going to program those times intentionally and they TOOK UP SO MUCH SCREEN REALESTATE that they couldn't be missed when they showed up as a default fade time in need of attention. I practically NEVER had to tell any designers or SM's that they'd failed to assign a fade time to a cue. Sometimes, even when they had their mics muted, I'd hear them on the house monitor debating times until they'd settled upon, and noted, a time and then they'd turn their mics back on and proceed to make changes often without commanding the cue be recorded, let alone designating a fade time. I'm SURE you've NEVER found yourself in that situation. [As if]
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

So the SM did not even confer with the LX op to skip forward or link over the cues even? Just did not call them? Then wondered why everything went "Funny"?
Also makes me wonder if the SM called standby warnings with the cue number to make sure the right one was up next...
 
So the SM did not even confer with the LX op to skip forward or link over the cues even? Just did not call them? Then wondered why everything went "Funny"?
Also makes me wonder if the SM called standby warnings with the cue number to make sure the right one was up next...
@Dionysus You got it. Because the SM didn't see any visible changes, she assumed the cues she was calling contributed nothing so she just didn't bother to call them. The SM just kept calling 'Go's' when and where she saw fit. When she called a 'Go!' that she presumed should have faded to black for the end of the final scene, the board simply executed the next barely perceptible change in levels in areas where no action was taking place. When the SM called her 'Go!' for what she presumed should have been lights up for calls, the board wasn't that far down the stack. By the end of the night, the board was in an invisible warming black ready to come up to full intensities with as little lag as possible but no one ever called for the cue. Sometimes the problems aren't always in the gear.
BTW @Dionysus Are the XLR-2 connectors still in use in The Grand for low voltage Q lights? I awoke wondering this a couple of mornings ago.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
I'm sorry but I think this one is on more than an SM ignoring things. A conscientious board op should (a) know the show, (b) know what the LD did when and why, (c) know where the cues go and why they're there and (d) know what's coming next, (e) know what should be happening, and above all KEEP AWAKE. Granted: if the system calls for the board op taking his/her cues from the SM, good, listen for them and take them as they're called. But keep awake and if the SM drops dead, do things when he/she knows they're supposed to be done.
 
I'm sorry but I think this one is on more than an SM ignoring things. A conscientious board op should (a) know the show, (b) know what the LD did when and why, (c) know where the cues go and why they're there and (d) know what's coming next, (e) know what should be happening, and above all KEEP AWAKE. Granted: if the system calls for the board op taking his/her cues from the SM, good, listen for them and take them as they're called. But keep awake and if the SM drops dead, do things when he/she knows they're supposed to be done.
@JonCarter I find myself badly torn on this one. Like yourself, I grew up with that same logic. It was SO INSTILLED in me, when I arrived at Stratford, Ontario's Stratford Shakespearean Festival as their IA head of sound, one hot afternoon in their pre-air conditioned days and a heavily costumed lower level performer feinted and fell face first on the stage immediately prior to a scene change, I rolled my 1/2" four track music right on cue even though my 'Go' had never been called. My stand-by had been called, along with the lighting cues and cue-lights for various others, but the SM, in the haste of dealing with not only getting the scene changed, and the furniture moved that the underling should have been moving but she also needed to have two minions return and carry off their cohort before the lights could be called up for the following scene and the show continue. All went well and life went on. During the changeover between the matinee and the evening production, the afternoon production's SM, Miss. Colleen Stephenson, chatted me up and asked if she had in fact called my go. I answered no, but not to worry about it. Not only did she not worry about it but she thanked me, clarified that I had consciously taken the cue on my own without her 'Go' and wrote me up in the Equity show report for 'Executing a cue without instruction.' Of course there was no further recourse or explanation as to either why I did so OR why she'd failed to call the cue. In all my years at Stratford, I believe it was the ONLY time I was ever formally written up in a show report. Getting written up in a show report is a sin and my sin still stings some four decades later. That was how I learned the wisdom of a long standing Stratford IA saying: "No go, no show." If your go is not called, you DON'T execute your cue. Speaking in her own defense, I was told there could have easily been extenuating circumstances beyond my knowledge and no time for further explanations on the SM's part. Bottom Line: I was wrong and the lesson was whipped into me. Colleen was right. I still remember learning my lesson in 1977 and it STILL stings forty years later. I suspect @JonCarter we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one as I'm not feeling a need for further admonishment yet. I did have another similar experience in 1991 or '92 in Hamilton's Theatre Aquarius when the SM called my standbys for house to half, house out, house curtain out (It was electrically operated from my booth) and lights up for the opening cue. The curtain flew revealing a dimly lit preset in which a lone actor entered and pulled the chain on a practical prop 'ghost light' which was my cue to hit 'Go' illuminating the ghost light along with all the supplementary scene lighting and the show to begin. On opening night, something distracted the SM and the sound of my clicking the LP90's loud 'Go' button snapped her awake and she was immediately yammering in my ear about my having taken my cue before she called it. I could barely get her to stop yammering and look out her window in time to call the next cue for additional cast members to enter. AGAIN, approximately 14 years later, I was written up in an Equity show report. At least this time the SM was kind enough to add a few extra explanatory phrases. No @JonCarter , I don't think you're going to have much luck swaying me over to your side on this one.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
@RonHebbard I guess I've never had the good fortune (or mis-fortune, depending on one's point of view) to have worked in such an organized "Big Time" operation. "Wrote me up"?? "Show report"?? Sounds like a bureaucrat with time on her hands to me--give her something to do! Every company I've ever worked with has been much more concerned with getting a good show to the audience.
 
@RonHebbard I guess I've never had the good fortune (or mis-fortune, depending on one's point of view) to have worked in such an organized "Big Time" operation. "Wrote me up"?? "Show report"?? Sounds like a bureaucrat with time on her hands to me--give her something to do! Every company I've ever worked with has been much more concerned with getting a good show to the audience.
@JonCarter I believe I've typed this here before. When I first went to Stratford in February or March of 1977, I spent my time renovating their sound booth, prepping the three productions about to open the main stage's '77 season and one of the two productions for their third space, the Tom Patterson, or Third Stage as it was termed at the time. The Avon's sound head, Roger Gaskell, was likewise busily recording his production's tapes plus prepping the Third Stage's other production. Work continued finessing things through previews and finally we hit official opening night. Season opening night in Stratford is a big deal in a small town. I recall having one patron die during the opening performance and the SM and FOH manager smoothly dealt with the removal of the body without missing a cue. More than half the audience would never have been aware. Next opening, same theatre but a different production, we had a lady giving birth who didn't want to be extracted as she was riveted by the performance. Stratford: Life and death goes on but so do the performances.
Oh what the heck, I'm on a roll.
Stratford's a big hockey town. In the seventies, the mayor was a fellow named Culliton, Keith Culliton possibly. Mr. Culliton's family business was HVAC and his company sponsored The Stratford Culliton's hockey team. The Culliton's normally did well and had a great many fans amongst the populace. We had a lady who was the senior bartender in charge of all liquor ordering and dispensing for the Festival's main stage. Our senior bartender was a MAJOR fan of the Culliton's, proudly attended as many games as possible and was PROUD of her record for riding home across the rear seat of the team bus and servicing all of the team members on their way back to Stratford after they'd won an out of town game. She came into work one matinee admitting she was a little tired but none the less proud of her record still being intact. The evening before she'd "serviced" all comers (Pardon the pun) on the way home from a game in New Hamburg, a tiny blip on the map only a few miles down the highway from Stratford yet she'd managed to "service" ALL comers in only a few short miles. She was actually PROUD of her record setting achievement and loudly told her tale to all who'd listen. Quite the lady our senior bar captain. I can still see her in my mind's eye but I can't recall her name.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
After thinking about the board op who calmly let the show go to H because the SM didn't call cues, I'm reminded of a cameraman I knew and with whom I occasionally worked. (This was a long time ago and I'm sure he's died by now, but even so in deference to his memory I won't use his real name. Let's call him Ed.) Ed was a very good cameraman. He knew every film's latitude and how to light a scene to take full advantage of it. He knew how to compose a perfectly balanced shot; sometimes better than the director who called it. His footage was always properly framed and exposed. He never to my knowledge called for additional takes at a half-stop more or less "just in case." But he would shoot exactly what the director called for. Many of us in the biz at the time, when asked what we thought of Ed's work, would say, "Ed is the kind of cameraman who, if asked to photograph a shot of a car for a TV commercial, would give you a perfect shot, including the used condom hanging from the radio antenna. But the condom would be perfectly exposed and in focus."

I'll hand it to you, @RonHebbard, for doing what was RIGHT for the show, regardless of the SM's failure to call the "GO."
 

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