Designing in Thrust

[rochem]

I have just been asked to design "Into The Woods" for a local community theatre. However, the director has a very interesting take on the show which is very far from the "normal" interpretation of Into The Woods. Basically, he wants to move away from the traditional Disney version of the fairytales, and back towards the original, darker concept as collected by the Brothers Grimm. As such, the show is being done in a very abstract way, with an highly abstract set and costumes, and with a very narrow color palette in the set and costumes. The show is being done in a black box theatre, configured for thrust seating (Rider Here).

Now for the challenge. My initial design concept calls for lots of shadows, almost a film noir type of approach, odd and awkward angles, key from unusual angles, lots of texture and breakup in the light, among other things. But the problem I now have is how do I translate this to a thrust space? I have spent the last couple days pouring over lighting textbooks, but none of them really go into much detail - even the Gillette book just shows one possible approach with very little elaboration. So how do I go about translating this kind of design idea into a thrust setting? In proscenium, I would probably key from sidelight for most scenes, with front being used as fill, but obviously there's no sidelight in thrust. I've done a bit of searching on here, but haven't really found anything helpful. I'm aware of techniques such as three-point and four-point lighting, but having never designed in thrust, I know very little about this. Any suggestions?

 

[thatactorguy]

Just a thought- are there any shin buster pipes, or could some be put in place? You could light from low angles, which could look cool. I'm not a big fan of backlighting, but it could work with this show. Also, some down light. I'd come from the sides as much as possible. I wonder if some instruments could be hidden behind set pieces? Just a couple of ideas. Good luck with the show!

 

[Grog12]

I would probably key from sidelight for most scenes, with front being used as fill, but obviously there's no sidelight in thrust.

Completly untrue. There is sidelight in thrust...you just have to remember that its also a frontlight for a third of the audience and backlight for a third of the audience.

You can still key (source) light from a direction but you have to think a whole lot more 3 dimensionally in thrust lighting. Your key (source) light from a direction, but that may not be what's primarily lighting the actors, but serving as a representation of what's lighitng the actors in their world...a strong wash of R318 for the setting sun from one side but you see their faces frome a 3 point R33/L201 system.

Also the biggest hint in thrust/round lighting...the only light that looks the same from all angles is downlight.

 

[rochem]

Completly untrue. There is sidelight in thrust...you just have to remember that its also a frontlight for a third of the audience and backlight for a third of the audience.

Ah, I see what you mean about keying off a motivated source, where the angle that the light is striking the actor doesn't matter as much as does the actual presence of the source. I was more referring to using a specific angle to reveal the subject a specific way, without any real motivating source. For certain moments in abstract shows such as this, I tend to key off of the emotions and flow of the show, as opposed to keying off of real motivating sources. As I said, one of the things I wanted to go for was an almost "film noir" style as it relates to harsh shadows. In proscenium, I might have a shin or a headhigh from one side acting as key, with very little or no fill, causing half the face to be in total shadow. There's really no way to translate something like this into thrust, is there?

Just a thought- are there any shin buster pipes, or could some be put in place? You could light from low angles, which could look cool. I'm not a big fan of backlighting, but it could work with this show. Also, some down light. I'd come from the sides as much as possible. I wonder if some instruments could be hidden behind set pieces? Just a couple of ideas. Good luck with the show!

The space does have booms and bases, and I have a number of homemade floor mounts which I can use. I have given a bit of thought to using low angles like you mentioned, but I'm not entirely sure how to use them. Also, I can't see how I would translate these angles to all sides of the audience, since any position other than the DSR and DSL entrances would be shining right in someone's eyes.

 

[shiben]

Have you considered using footlights? That can make interesting shadows on faces, and then use a gobo wash that is stronger on top of that might work, you can also use smaller instruments (PAR 20s or 16s) or mini-lekos (I think altman makes a 3.5" ERS?) can be mounted on the floor using wood screws, washers and the yoke, and then these can be pointed anywhere. Also, like Grog12 said, toplight will look the same from all sides, and that also makes fun shadows when used without lots of fill. Do you have time to experiment with instruments in the space? If you do, grab some textures and see what you can make happen?

 

[Grog12]

I tend to key off of the emotions and flow of the show, as opposed to keying off of real motivating sources. As I said, one of the things I wanted to go for was an almost "film noir" style as it relates to harsh shadows. In proscenium, I might have a shin or a headhigh from one side acting as key, with very little or no fill, causing half the face to be in total shadow. There's really no way to translate something like this into thrust, is there?

Again...that's your job as well tapping into emotions as well as realistic sources. Look you're talking to the guy who very rarely says "Well this light is coming from the 2pm sun."

And again this statement is untrue...there is a several ways to do what you're saying.

If the thrust stage is a clock (gee and all of a sudden we're back in Gaff's thread about his BB lol) and 12 is US where no audience is sitting you could hang lights there that would never be front light.

Where does the audience enter from? If they enter from 8 and 4 oclock then you can hang lights there that would never be FL to the audience.

Down pattern washes.

60 degree plus side light from any angle.

Lights hidden in the set.

Is there a false floor? Can you install lights underneath it?

Get into the space and hang a few lights and play around....this is more possible than you think it is. I've seen shows lit from all angles in a thrust theatre where you couldn't see the actors faces...done intentionally of course. Don't limit yourself to thinking about this in proscinium terms, its keeping you from exploring all sorts of avenues.

 

[rochem]

Don't limit yourself to thinking about this in proscinium terms, its keeping you from exploring all sorts of avenues.

Yea, I think I'm approaching this as taking a proscenium theatre and adding seats on the sides, rather than as a whole new method of lighting and design. I've never really designed outside of a traditional proscenium theatre, so this is a pretty big adjustment for me. Thanks for the help so far.

 

[Van]

Yea, I think I'm approaching this as taking a proscenium theatre and adding seats on the sides, rather than as a whole new method of lighting and design. I've never really designed outside of a traditional proscenium theatre, so this is a pretty big adjustment for me. Thanks for the help so far.

Making the jump from Proscenium to thrust can be a huge PITA especially for younger designers, Heck I've seen Pro designers that have a hard time making the transition and simply can't let go of Proscenium conventions. Listening to what Grog is saying Down Light is a major friend. I've found that in Thrust lighting you can do some things you simply can't in Pro. For instance; In Pro lighting the Adage is " you are lighting the air not the floor." Since the audience in a proscenium space rarely sees the floor, the patterns you shoot are visible only on the actors and set pieces. In Thrust 3/4 you audiences tend to be higher than the stage floor and your use of patterns can be greatly enhanced by their, now, visibility.
When I first started designing lights all my experience was in Pro, once i got to college I had to learn thrust. My first thought was to revolutionize the lighting world by, basically "McCandlesizing" thrust lighting: fixtures hung at 60 degrees to each other hot and cool washes plus down lights. Let's just say I blew my whole lighting inventory on the first 5 areas. I just wasn't ready to let go my Proscenium experience.
Open your mind to the fact that "side light" for one section, in thrust, is front light for another section.
In Proscenium Lighting you want everyone to see the same thing wherever they are in the theatre, In Thrust lighting different people are going to get different views and experiences. That's not to say you don't want "good light" on everyone but remember the experience you were giving people in Proscenium lighting is expanded to a '3D" experience for people in Thrust lighting.

Ok these are mostly ramblings but I hope they help a bit.

 

[JChenault]

Another factor to keep in mind is that of distance. IE audience to actor distance. In general a black box space is a lot smaller than a proscenium theatre. The audience is much closer, and you do not have to work as hard to make things visible and to reveal form.

If you want an abstract look, you might try just try lighting the actor with very few instruments, and enjoy the shadows. Different members of the audience will see different shadows. Use that to your advantage.

 

[NevilleLighting]

I've done quite a bit of designing in-the-round which is very similar to thrust. I've even done Into the Woods in-the-round. Because of the angle problems detailed in the post above I have found that I have the most success by playing up color and texture. Into the Woods provides a lot of opportunity for both. Most important is trying to keep the ability to really separate areas. Steeper angles work better if you have the grid height to manage that. The only angle that is constant from all viewing angles is straight down.

 

[Esoteric]

Keep in mind that there are also tons of thrust spaces out there without proper distance for the lighting angles necessary for thrust lighting.

It can be a huge jump. That is why I was so thankful to go to a University with a variety of spaces for us to design in.

Mike

 

[Grog12]

I've kind of lucked out in my career. The vast majority of shows I designed before I got to my current position were in thrust, tennis court or in the round. Stepping into a proscienum space by comparison seems a little easy at times.

 

[Van]

I've kind of lucked out in my career. The vast majority of shows I designed before I got to my current position were in thrust, tennis court or in the round. Stepping into a proscienum space by comparison seems a little easy at times.

I totally agree.

 

[rochem]

Keep in mind that there are also tons of thrust spaces out there without proper distance for the lighting angles necessary for thrust lighting.

Fortunately, this is a pretty designer-friendly space. It's actually a black box theatre, in the same building as the roadhouse where I work. 4' by 5'6" lighting grid covering the entire space, 19' off the deck, and they have a pretty decent conventional-only inventory. They also have a number of booms and ladders available, so getting good angles shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for all the help guys. I was planning to use a lot of breakups, both for a top wash but also for some front light purposes. Right now I'm looking at primarily changing color with the colors/breakups in top washes, while I keep the face lighting fairly neutral. This thread has got me thinking about a bunch of unconventional approaches which I never would have thought of before.

 

[LightingPenguin]

Lighting a thrust stage

I've never had to do this before, so bare with me.

How does one theatrically light a thrust stage, when the audience is 2 feet away from the platforms? I feel like I'm just going to be blinding the audience the moment I try to light an actor there, making them uncomfortable the entire show.

I read the thread about designing in thrust, but I feel like any light I use will blind everyone

 

[rochem]

Re: Lighting a thrust stage

Well, one of the advantages is also one of the disadvantages. Because the audience is so close, you don't need to work nearly as hard to make sure the eyes and teeth are visible. In thrust you can get away with much steeper angles of frontlight and still have good enough visibility for the audience to see. Also, I believe it's generally accepted by the audience to have light spilling onto the legs of those in the first row. Just don't let it get much higher than that, or the audience will be watching the audience members across from them rather than the actors on the stage. What I'm doing right now is plotting my lights for the edges of the stage at an angle that will clear 6' at the edge of the stage and land a little below knee height for someone sitting in the first row. Even if this is a little steeper angle than desired, there's not a lot you can do about it. Also, at least in the show I'm doing, there are almost no times when a character is at the edge of the stage and playing inwards (towards CS) - which is the only time when face light there would really matter. Just do the best you can without blinding your audience.

 

[Drewdesign]

Re: Lighting a thrust stage

Most of my shows are done on a Thrust Stage...I work on a 4 basic light groups, Fround (warm), SR (Cool) SL (warm) Back (Dark deep color)

When focusing its really hard to not focus on the first 3 rows of the side sections, which in our case those seats are the last to sell, so there might be a few people there...to me it doesnt bother me when i sit in those seats during tech....also use top hats...all my lights have top hats...

The disadvantage I face is that when you use texture it has to be perfect, as in you cant be sloppy with focusing texture...

 

[shiben]

Re: Lighting a thrust stage

There was a thread on this topic a while back I believe, but I dont remember what it was called... it had some good advice.

 

[NevilleLighting]

Re: Lighting a thrust stage

Rochem's advice about the steeper angles is good. I also usually have a system of lights around the edge of the stage that crosslight basically a wide ring around the perimeter. That way the side shutter cut is what keeps it out of the audience rather than the top cut. Because every angle is a compromise a lot of my design energy goes into color, texture and the ability to isolate different parts of the stage.

 

[Drewdesign]

Re: Lighting a thrust stage

a lot of my design energy goes into color, texture and the ability to isolate different parts of the stage.

Same.......