Mixers/Consoles Digital Mixers

[SoundGuySPI]

Hello all!
I am pretty new to CB I've been reading a bunch on the threads but haven't posted yet, anywho..
a local theatre venue that I have been working with for a few years is starting to look into purchasing a new digital mixing console. We currently have an ov1 96v and A: its not big enough for some of the shows we are beginning to get into; B: its starting to have issues not storing cues or recording them faders getting mis-aligned (yes it has the current firmware) C: its not user friendly enough for some of the people who come in for other shows.

I would love to hear an opinion on what you think we should get... we are looking to spend 10k or less at least 32 analog inputs, and digital expansion as we have 16 a/d inputs as well. I would prefer to have 32 faders to work with as switching layers back and forth can be confusing for some of our tech's.

I rather enjoy the Yamaha LS9 32 I've used it on a number of shows with great ease and am leaning towards that and i will say one of the biggest reasons is if for any reason something happens to it i have my show on my flashdrive and can get another mixer from 5 other companies in town in a matter of hours usually. However I am open to be persuaded or enlightened on other consoles.

Thanks,
Damien

 

[Footer]

X32. Save your cash for something else you need. No reason to spend money on the LS9. It's long in the tooth b and is not any easier to work with over they 01v. Layers are the future....

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[lakota651]

Hi Damien,

If you are wanting to do musical theatre I would try and stay away from the LS9. For music act and what not it is fine, but lacking feature I like to have when doing musical theatre. The Behringer X32, though a bit annoying to set up, offers more features and sonically is comparable. Midas announced at NAMM the M32, which is essentially a redesigned X32 with a better layout and pre amps, however it is still the same software. List is $5k, however it might be able to handle all the I/O you are looking for.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X32.aspx

http://midasconsoles.com/namm/m32/

How may Channels of I/O are you looking for? What sort of shows does your theatre do?

~ Lakota

 

[FMEng]

Switching layers is no big deal, provided the console has scribble strips. Without those, identifying channels on multiple layers is a pain that can really slow you down. The X32 is a nice product at twice the price.

 

[SoundGuySPI]

Hi Damien,

If you are wanting to do musical theatre I would try and stay away from the LS9. For music act and what not it is fine, but lacking feature I like to have when doing musical theatre. The Behringer X32, though a bit annoying to set up, offers more features and sonically is comparable. Midas announced at NAMM the M32, which is essentially a redesigned X32 with a better layout and pre amps, however it is still the same software. List is $5k, however it might be able to handle all the I/O you are looking for.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X32.aspx

http://midasconsoles.com/namm/m32/

How may Channels of I/O are you looking for? What sort of shows does your theatre do?

~ Lakota

Lakota,
16 I/O
We as of late have been doing quite a few musicals, such as SPAMalot, West side story, we will be doing A Christmas Story the Musical, as well as our basic straight plays. With some of our musicals such as SPAMalot I had 28 Vocal Wireless mics a few actors were double mic'ed, wireless HH for House Manager/Intermission etc Stereo FX input a 9 piece orchestra (didn't mic all of them) two off stage vocal mics it was ALOT more than i really wanted but the director won that battle... But none the less I ended up borrowing the LS9 32 from another venue I do shows at for this particular show as I've been using it there for quite some time.

The M32 looks solid but, when will it be released for purchase?

 

[Footer]

I would hold off on the M32 until some people get demo units to see if the extra few grand will be worth it. The one limiting factor you have with that line is the 32 channel frame. Do you see yourself going past that in the future? Sounds like you might already be there.

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[lakota651]

Lakota,
16 I/O
We as of late have been doing quite a few musicals, such as SPAMalot, West side story, we will be doing A Christmas Story the Musical, as well as our basic straight plays. With some of our musicals such as SPAMalot I had 28 Vocal Wireless mics a few actors were double mic'ed, wireless HH for House Manager/Intermission etc Stereo FX input a 9 piece orchestra (didn't mic all of them) two off stage vocal mics it was ALOT more than i really wanted but the director won that battle... But none the less I ended up borrowing the LS9 32 from another venue I do shows at for this particular show as I've been using it there for quite some time.

The M32 looks solid but, when will it be released for purchase?

My local sales guys tell me it is scheduled for release in March. We'll see if that holds true. Since it is literally running the same software as the x32, which is has proven stable, I personally would feel fine getting now. For me, the bigger frame with slightly better layout and better converter (Pro series converters, according to the Midas rep in videos online) are worth the wait and extra $2k.

Midas is also offering a 30% discount right now on Pro1/Pro2 packages, fyi. The Pro 1 is right (or just above by a couple hundred) you budget, however that only gets you 24 channels to start. The desk can handle 40, via stage racks if you were to rent or upgrade later. The other caveat is the surface only has 16 faders.

If you really do often need more than 40ch. on a regular basis, the LS9 is going to be the only option. I can't think of any 48ch+ desk under $10k. Ideally I would love to see/hear you get something like a CL3, Vi2, SD9 (or their big brothers), but those are all above your stated budget. Given your ceiling, this is a configuration I would seriously consider: Buy the M32 with the adat card, and with the money you save over the LS9 buy a couple of good verb units that can take adat/spidf. For your bigger shows then, use the 01V as a side car to sub mix the orchestra/band/ensemble/etc., sending the sub mix via adat back to the M32.

Console: M32 ≈ $5k
Card: X-DAT(adat) ≈$?
Verb Units: (2) T.C. M3000 ≈$3200
Side car: 01V 96 ≈ FREE

~ Lakota

 

[Footer]

My local sales guys tell me it is scheduled for release in March. We'll see if that holds true. Since it is literally running the same software as the x32, which is has proven stable, I personally would feel fine getting now. For me, the bigger frame with slightly better layout and better converter (Pro series converters, according to the Midas rep in videos online) are worth the wait and extra $2k.

Midas is also offering a 30% discount right now on Pro1/Pro2 packages, fyi. The Pro 1 is right (or just above by a couple hundred) you budget, however that only gets you 24 channels to start. The desk can handle 40, via stage racks if you were to rent or upgrade later. The other caveat is the surface only has 16 faders.

If you really do often need more than 40ch. on a regular basis, the LS9 is going to be the only option. I can't think of any 48ch+ desk under $10k. Ideally I would love to see/hear you get something like a CL3, Vi2, SD9 (or their big brothers), but those are all above your stated budget. Given your ceiling, this is a configuration I would seriously consider: Buy the M32 with the adat card, and with the money you save over the LS9 buy a couple of good verb units that can take adat/spidf. For your bigger shows then, use the 01V as a side car to sub mix the orchestra/band/ensemble/etc., sending the sub mix via adat back to the M32.

Console: M32 ≈ $5k
Card: X-DAT(adat) ≈$?
Verb Units: (2) T.C. M3000 ≈$3200
Side car: 01V 96 ≈ FREE

~ Lakota

Roland M480. Good desk... Limited to 48 channels. It's a little faster then the LS9 but I still not as easy as the Pro2 or x32.

I'm still very hesitant on the M32 pro series preamps thing. Its still a 48k desk... Its not going to sound like a Pro series desk.




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[lakota651]

Roland M480. Good desk... Limited to 48 channels. It's a little faster then the LS9 but I still not as easy as the Pro2 or x32.

I'm still very hesitant on the M32 pro series preamps thing. Its still a 48k desk... Its not going to sound like a Pro series desk. \

I didn't mean to imply that the M32 would sound like the Pro series, only that it should sound better that the X32.

I have not used the M480, just the M400. What improvements have they made? There are defiantly a few features it has over the LS9 that I like, however I prefer the build in effects on Yamaha. Something that the M/X32 have over both of them though is channel OLEDs.

 

[TimmyP1955]

I think the LS9 works fine for musical theater. But even at used prices it's more than an X32, and it is less capable - save for the number of scenes and the ability to expand to 64 channels. However if you want channels 33-64 to have recall-able preamps, you are talking a LOT of money - you'd be better off getting one of the new A&H or Soundcraft offerings, a used M7CL-48 (I know of a couple), or a Pro Series console. If 32 channels will do, you might wait a bit and see if folks think the M32 is worth the extra money over the X32.

 

[fdew]

If you are not in a hurry take a look at this.
Audio Mixing Platform (AMP)
I know the creator and he is using it now for theater work, therefor he is sensitive to the needs.

Frank

 

[museav]

Just to add my understanding, compared to the Behringer X32 the Midas M32 uses the Midas PRO series preamps and motorized faders (the same preaamps and faders used on the PRO2/3/6/9) versus the "designed by Midas" preamps and Behringer developed faders of the X32. The M32 is 44.1kHz or 48kHz sampling like the X32 but has the ability to potentially be upgraded to 96kHz sampling at some point in the future. And the M32 has a diferent, and much nicer, housing.

The mixer I/O, connectivity and firmware/software for both the console and remote control are apparently virtually the same as the X32, including support for Behringer's P16 personal mixer system. And the M32 supports the same FireWire/USB, ADAT, MADI and Dante X-Expansion cards as the X32.

I believe the M32 is compatible with the existing Midas DL251/252 stage boxes for up to 96 inputs and 96 outputs (at 48kHz sampling, future 96kHz sampling may reduce that count). A 16 input, 8 output DL16 stage box, basically a Behringer S16 with the Midas preamps, will supposedly also be available.

Quite frankly, I wonder how much difference 96kHz versus 48kHz sampling will actually make in many live sound applications so that to me is not a major factor, but it will be interesting to see how much difference people feel the preamps make and if that, the faders and the form factor justify the additional cost of the M32. Of course there is also the possible value for some of the Midas versus Behringer name for rider compliance and rentals.


Your point about many people being familiar with and having show files for the LS9 is a very valid point as is units being readily available in case of a problem. But the LS9 is getting a bit old in trms of digital consoles and there are newer options that may function better in your application and/or serve your needs at a lower cost. Only you can really determine the relative value of those points for your particular situation.

 

[TimmyP1955]

The M32 is also said to have better output ciruitry - the same as the Pro series.

Note that when using DL boxes, they have to be switched to 48k, so they cannot be used with an M32/X32 and a Pro simultaneously (unless said M32 has been upgraded to 96k - I'm assuming).

Those additional ins and outs do not increase the number of channels, buses, or outputs that can pass audio at any one time. They can however (I believe) be switched on a scene-by-scene basis.

 

[museav]

The M32 is also said to have better output ciruitry - the same as the Pro series.

Interesting that a MUSIC Group rep that delineated the differences between the X32 and M32 in one forum did not mention that.

Note that when using DL boxes, they have to be switched to 48k, so they cannot be used with an M32/X32 and a Pro simultaneously (unless said M32 has been upgraded to 96k - I'm assuming).

And at one point some of the DL boxes did not support both 48kHz and 96kHz sampling. In fact apparently Uli Behringer created a bit of a mess when he mentioned in a popular audio forum that the DL 153 was compatible with the 48kz Behringer X32 and based on that a number of people purchased DL 153s only to find they were 96kHz operation only and thus not compatible with their mixers. The response was that they were working on a firmware update that would allow selectable 48kHz/96kHz operation and would report back. They never did report back but that update apparently occurred as the Midas web site now shows all DL I/O boxes as being 48kHz/96kHz selectable. I'm not sure what the people who had purchased the units based on Uli's comment were supposed to do in the interim.

Just to clarify, the M32 is apparently designed to allow for the potential of future 96kHz sampling but that is not a currently available option or upgrade nor do they seem to be committing to ever offering it, just that the possibility is there. And I believe that with 96kHz sampling the number of channels supported by the AES50 connections would halve from 48 to 24 channels per AES port.

 

[FMEng]

It has been repeatedly proven that there is no audible difference between 48 kHz and 96 kHz sampling rates. None. And that's in a carefully controlled listening environment with high end audio equipment. Anyone that hears the difference in a sound re-enforcement system is simply deluding themselves. The M32 probably has some refinements that make it better than the X32, but the higher sampling rate is simply great marketing.

 

[venuetech]

It has been repeatedly proven that there is no audible difference between 48 kHz and 96 kHz sampling rates. None. And that's in a carefully controlled listening environment with high end audio equipment. Anyone that hears the difference in a sound re-enforcement system is simply deluding themselves. The M32 probably has some refinements that make it better than the X32, but the higher sampling rate is simply great marketing.

maybe a fella could hear the diffrence if you used starquad cable

 

[FMEng]

maybe a fella could hear the diffrence if you used starquad cable

Actually, starquad cable does improve common-mode rejection, so it is effective at reducing noise pickup. It comes at the cost of increased capacitance. The capacitance may cause minor high frequency loss, depending upon the length of the cable and the microphone's output impedance.

 

[MrX]

Those interested in Sample Rates, have a read here.

 

[SoundGuySPI]

I want to thank everyone for their input I really appreciate it. I have found out that we unofficially have the money and permission to purchase a console. Since another of our consoles is dying now (spirit 8) I've taken quite a look into the x32 I like it decently that's probably what we will get. But, I was talking with my boss at the museum and he said to also take a look at the soundcraft si performer 3 I've been looking now but i wonder what others think about it.

In regards to the X32 if we end up getting that I think we would also get an s16 digital snake to have backstage for larger events on stage. I downloaded the editor and played a bit with it it's nice a bit easier than the studio manager by Yamaha but I was wondering one thing does the x32 have scene memories? I thought it did but I'm not sure where they are or how to program.


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[museav]

I downloaded the editor and played a bit with it it's nice a bit easier than the studio manager by Yamaha but I was wondering one thing does the x32 have scene memories? I thought it did but I'm not sure where they are or how to program.

In the editor software look for the "SCENES" section in the middle at the right of the screen, hit "VIEW" in that section and it should bring up the scenes pages.