Double-sided Painted Backdrop

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and I'm seriously over my head! I'm directing a one-act musical and due to budget constraints we decided to use a double-sided painted backdrop. I have no idea on how to design a mechanism to "flip" this backdrop easily.

I'm a first-time director and could really use some help.
 
How big of a drop? Are we talking 20ft x50ft or 8ftx10ft?

It's defiantly on the bigger side, bigger than 8x10 ft, I believe its 24x30 ...one side is painted as a forest, the other as a neighborhood with a row of houses. They are painted in reverse directions. (When the forest is up the neighborhood is upside down on the reverse side.) The backdrop shifts twice in the play.
 
Ok...
Do you have any rigging system in the venue? Has someone done this before and just not telling you how to do it? What is the time frame this change has to occur in? Was there some sort of plan going into the painting of this or was this just a "we'll figure it out later" type of thing?

Not that I am attacking you, I just want to get an idea of what the thought process is. Also, does the drop have ties on both sides or any pipe pockets?
 
Ok...
Do you have any rigging system in the venue? Has someone done this before and just not telling you how to do it? What is the time frame this change has to occur in? Was there some sort of plan going into the painting of this or was this just a "we'll figure it out later" type of thing?

Not that I am attacking you, I just want to get an idea of what the thought process is. Also, does the drop have ties on both sides or any pipe pockets?

No, there is no rigging system. actually the venue is being set up as "outdoor" theater...in a city park. This is what the producers requested. No one has done it before but the cost of purchasing another canvas was too high and so it was suggested and then decided to paint on the back of the one canvas. The change would have to occur within a mintue. The only planning or thought was that the backdrop, which has several grommets along the top and bottom could be suspended from a bar or rod....with another bar at the bottom and somehow, using ropes, a flip would be possible *sigh*.....it doesn't have a pipe pocket only grommets....am anxious to know if anything at all can be done....since the main character leaves the forest on a mission I must change backdrop...beginning to panic....opening night is 10 days away. My crew included 3 stagehands.
 
Is there existing overhead steel of any kind? If not then you are going to have rent a set of Genies and truss to give you something to hang from. From that point you will need pulleys and rope to raise and lower the drop. Depending on size you may need to use more ropes than end picks. I would set it up so the ropes all pull from same side. Attach the drop to pipes top and bottom and attach the ropes to the pipe with a bowline, carabiner and a runner. Then it is simply a matter of landing the drop, switch the carabiners to the other pipe and pull it back up.
 
Eh.

It can be done. However, I see no way to do it without having lift lines in front of the drop in on position. You could rig two pipes to fly, tie one pipe to the bottom, the other to the top, and that would flip the drop. However, its not going to be pretty. In reality, it would be cheaper to get another drop and paint it then it would be to hang all this flying gear. Using a few clips, it would be possible for the stagehands to bring in the drop, unhook it, and then hook the other side and take it out all in one minute. It would also not be pretty but doable. Unfortunately, I think your in between and rock and a hard place.
 
Is there existing overhead steel of any kind? If not then you are going to have rent a set of Genies and truss to give you something to hang from. From that point you will need pulleys and rope to raise and lower the drop. Depending on size you may need to use more ropes than end picks. I would set it up so the ropes all pull from same side. Attach the drop to pipes top and bottom and attach the ropes to the pipe with a bowline, carabiner and a runner. Then it is simply a matter of landing the drop, switch the carabiners to the other pipe and pull it back up.

Can you explain a bit more how pulleys would work? I get the part about the pipes top and bottom and attaching ropes with carabiners
 
Eh.

It can be done. However, I see no way to do it without having lift lines in front of the drop in on position. You could rig two pipes to fly, tie one pipe to the bottom, the other to the top, and that would flip the drop. However, its not going to be pretty. In reality, it would be cheaper to get another drop and paint it then it would be to hang all this flying gear. Using a few clips, it would be possible for the stagehands to bring in the drop, unhook it, and then hook the other side and take it out all in one minute. It would also not be pretty but doable. Unfortunately, I think your in between and rock and a hard place.
:cry: yeah...sure sounds that way....major learning experience.....
 
Can you explain a bit more how pulleys would work? I get the part about the pipes top and bottom and attaching ropes with carabiners

Really, I can't. Its not something I feel comfortable explaining over the internet. Without knowing what the structure is about, how much weight it can hold, wind in the area, how much the drop weighs, and all that type of stuff I really can't be of much more help. I urge you to get some local help that can help you rig this up safely. If you can't find someone versed in theatre, find someone who does high steel iron work or crane work. Sorry to be that way.
 
Can you explain a bit more how pulleys would work? I get the part about the pipes top and bottom and attaching ropes with carabiners

Basically, what I think mstaylor is suggesting to have a flown truss with two pulleys about the width of your drop. Then you can have two stage hands pull on either side to fly the drape. Alternately if you want control from just one side then you could rig a double block on the side you would like control from and figure out lengths and distances to make both sides in time with each other might be a little challenging but I think doable
 
Really, I can't. Its not something I feel comfortable explaining over the internet. Without knowing what the structure is about, how much weight it can hold, wind in the area, how much the drop weighs, and all that type of stuff I really can't be of much more help. I urge you to get some local help that can help you rig this up safely. If you can't find someone versed in theatre, find someone who does high steel iron work or crane work. Sorry to be that way.

No, no I understand. I've mostly written and never directed and when I have directed it has been for video or television. Few people where I live are versed in theater. I will take the advice given so far and brainstorm with the crew a bit more.

Glad I stumbled onto this site!
 
Basically, what I think mstaylor is suggesting to have a flown truss with two pulleys about the width of your drop. Then you can have two stage hands pull on either side to fly the drape. Alternately if you want control from just one side then you could rig a double block on the side you would like control from and figure out lengths and distances to make both sides in time with each other might be a little challenging but I think doable

Ok! I think I've got it. Will have to rent the truss and attach two pulleys to the width of drop as suggested. From pulley ropes attach carabiners. Mount drop on pipes at top and bottom. Drill holes into pipes to attach rope loops to four corners, top and bottom. Hook carabiners to loops to fly drop. Land drop and move carabiners to bottom loops to flip.....think that should work....I think...
 
Hello,

A few thoughts:

1) Rigging this safely is probably as expensive as just buying a second drop would have been.

2) Depending on the span, two points is likely not enough. Your probably going to want at least three, and maybe 4. Without knowing the distance, it's impossible to answer.

3) Being outdoors, you need to account for the fact that this drop is going to act like a big windsock. See: The recent flurry of collapsing stages. Rigging this needs to take that into account.

4) Is this change seen during the show? Or is it masked. having to lose the drop and rehang it during the show is going to be ugly if it's not masked, you might want to consider other alternatives (Two sets of pulleys maybe? So the top was lowering as the bottom was raising-- or something similar.

Rigging stuff like this when you freely admit you're over your head has the potential to go very wrong. Please make sure you consult people locally, as advice over the internet is going to be filtered by the fact that everyone here is unable to see exactly what it is you are doing.
 
You have the gist of what we are saying, you now need to apply it to your situation because we can't see it. As already mentioned please be aware of weather and drops. Whatever other masking you are using has to be accounted for also. Anytime you fly anything outside, speakers, video, lighting or softgoods, can be very dangerous. Just because it is small doesn't mean it won't fall.
 
Scenic changes like this Always remind me of a time I was reading a script for "A Christmas Carrol". The script read, and I quote, " As Scrooge touches the ghosts arm the scene dissolves and becomes a Lodon Street." I told the Director I'd have to dust off the dissolve machine and see if it was still working.....

A lot of this scares me, No Offense to Blumorpho but it sounds as is you are in WAY over your head. A. Have you painted the drop yet ? Painting two sides of a sigle peice of Muslin it going to be extremely Difficult without have one side bleed through to the other side. You will need to seriously base both sides BEFORE you start to paint either side. If your drop is 24 + feet wide you are going to need at least three pick points 4 would be better, You might be able to go with 3 if you bridle them , spreading the load over a wider area.
 
oh christmas carol... We had one show where the director told the LD he wanted it to look "dirtier" He got on the clearcom and asked the board up to set the dirty lights at half.

if I'm understanding the OP correctly it sounds like it is already painted? especially if opening is in 10 days. Truly if it was too much to buy more material, at that size it's going to be even more expensive to have it fly and switch as you'd like.

if there's any wiggle room in money would it be possible to just drop it at the point he leaves and make a couple of cheap flats that you could pull on fast? that may be the easier and cheaper solution at this point.
 
I just want to reiterate, at the risk of being a jerk. Several people have expressed concern about safety but I'll be more blunt: you should not, cannot, do this. You need a very experienced, and ideally certified, rigger who knows how to calculate loads, wind load, and all kinds of factors. This is for anything with truss outdoors, and any kind of rig to hold a backdrop, regardless of the double-sided idea. Too many people have died this year from outdoor stage failures to play around with this stuff.

Logistical limits often lead to great art. Find another way to tell your story--it will be better for it.
 

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