Electric Winch VS Counter Weight Rigging

[fredthe]

For professional theaters, counterweight systems can also add a level of flexibility that you can't achieve with a fixed winch system. I also believe that in a professional theater, with properly trained staff and crew, counterweight systems can be safe.

However, when we get to the high school or community theater level, I'm really starting to believe in electric winch systems. In those environments, there is more of a chance for someone to do something stupid, and for someone to get hurt.

I've personally seen one runaway, where an electric crashed to the stage while the band (it was a musical, and they were in the wings) was loading out after one performance (There was no one on the fly rail at the time.) Luckily there was no one directly under it when it came down, though there were several people within a few feet of it. Had it hit someone, it would have been bad.

I also know of someone at a local theater who was killed by a dropped stage weight.

When you get to the college level, if there's a full theater program I believe that counterweight is the best, as it provides a good educational opertunity that you don't have with winches. However, in college safety must have a very heavy emphasis, as college kids are apt to do truely stupid things for no good reason. (I shudder when I think back on some of the things I did...)

Even with winches there are still risks. In our HS theater, we still require qualified supervision for any rigging done, because you are still flying things over people's heads, even if the fly systemn itself is "safer".

-Fred

 

[mixmaster]

Whenever this question comes up, the issue of safety is raised (and rightly so). My question is, statistically speaking, how dangerous is a counter weight system? In other words, does anyone have a number or comparison that we could assign to describe the level of unsafosity? How many people per year are hurt/killed by counter weight fly systems?

I ask because there was comment in another thread concerning safety and the NEC code. Someone asked why something or another wasn't included in The NEC. one of our members who works on the code replied essentially saying that the thing in question didn't actually happen that often so it wasn't really a concern.

I wonder if the situation might be the same with counterweight systems and their level of safety.

I'm not saying that they aren't potentially dangerous, just wondering how often actual incidents occur.

In 15 years of time in the industry, I've worked High schools, colleges, community (amateur) theater, and professional road houses. In that time I can think of 5 accidents that I've witnessed that have caused damages sufficient to take 1 or more linesets out of operation. 3 problems were runaways on Single purchase counterweight linesets. 2 problems were on electric winches.
Of the five problems only 1 was operator error. In this case someone who was not supposed to be in the building at all, especially not on the fly rail, flew in and removed 1500 of weight from the pipe, and then 1 guy went over to the rail and released the lock to bring the weights down to unload the arbor (no loading gallery). Guess what happened. I don't specifically blame the counterweight rig for this, mostly because this guy was determined to get the stuff off the pipe, and would have damaged something in the process anyway.
The other 4 problems all stemmed from mechanical failure. Things break in both types of systems. We had an electric winch lose a limit switch and just kept trying to pull the lineset up until it bogged down and tripped out the breakers. It bent three pieces of steel in the process and messed up the rigging for 3 linesets. I had the gear or shaft or something an old hand crank winch break once, and the set that was hanging on the pipe came back in from 10 feet in a hurry. I've seen the eye bolt at the top of a weight arbor break while weights were being removed, resulting in a runaway arbor, and a broken clew plate at the top of an arbor released the pipe from an otherwise textbook example of a well operated counterweight rig.
Regular inspections, maintenance, and training is the best prevention against these problems but sometimes stuff just happens and the best we can do is pray no one gets hurt, and learn from the experience. No one system is exempt from equipment failures OR stupidity.
For my own personal preference, I prefer the counterweight system. My experience is that electric winches are noisy and slow, and hand crank winches are quieter, but even slower. I also find that the ease of use for an electric winch leads to complacency, witch leads to anyone trying to use it, regardless of skill level, because after all, any can push a button right? The complexity of using a counterweight system means that (hopefully) only skilled or supervised people use it (in theory) and an experienced flyman can detect and react to problem much quicker that an inexperienced guy holding down a button. And a properly maintained and operated counterweight system is just as fast on the fly and quieter than it's electric counterparts.

 

[fredthe]

We had an electric winch lose a limit switch and just kept trying to pull the lineset up until it bogged down and tripped out the breakers. It bent three pieces of steel in the process and messed up the rigging for 3 linesets.

At least in the Clancy system we have, this is something they specifically guard against. There are two independant limit mechaisms (in addition to the "show" limits,) and if both of those were to fail, the load sensor would likely cut out before major damage occured.

I had the gear or shaft or something an old hand crank winch break once, and the set that was hanging on the pipe came back in from 10 feet in a hurry.

Talking with a local rigging company, they will not install hand-cranks, as none of them are rated for supporting overhead loads.

My experience is that electric winches are noisy and slow

They are a bit noisier, but the new systems at 180 ft/min, aren't much slower.

I also find that the ease of use for an electric winch leads to complacency, witch leads to anyone trying to use it, regardless of skill level, because after all, any can push a button right?

Which is exactly why we have a program of training the operators, and we won't hand the key to just anyone. Without the key and password, nothing moves.

The complexity of using a counterweight system means that (hopefully) only skilled or supervised people use it (in theory) and an experienced flyman can detect and react to problem much quicker that an inexperienced guy holding down a button.

Interesting you should bring that up. As a test, we placed a pumpkin on a solid platform under one of our pipes. We then lowered the pipe at full speed (3 ft/sec) onto the pumpkin. Our intent was to show that even with the protection systems, you can still get hurt. The actual result is that the pipe stopped dead (less than 1/2" beyond where it hit the pumpkin) and the pumpkin was unscathed. (No students were present, so they wouldn't get the wrong idea... and no, don't do this at home.) No human operator on a counterweight system could react as fast. (We repeated the test with a watermelon, with the result that it did break... only because the hit with the pipe caused it to roll off the platform and hit the ground, where it broke)

And a properly maintained and operated counterweight system is just as fast on the fly and quieter than it's electric counterparts.

No argument there, which is why counterweight systems will always have a place in professional theater. It's the amateur environment that I'm concerned about.

 

[lieperjp]

Talking with a local rigging company, they will not install hand-cranks, as none of them are rated for supporting overhead loads.

That's a bit scary to read as all three of my stage electrics use hand cranks...

 

[mixmaster]

At least in the Clancy system we have, this is something they specifically guard against. There are two independant limit mechaisms (in addition to the "show" limits,) and if both of those were to fail, the load sensor would likely cut out before major damage occured.



Talking with a local rigging company, they will not install hand-cranks, as none of them are rated for supporting overhead loads.
They are a bit noisier, but the new systems at 180 ft/min, aren't much slower.
Which is exactly why we have a program of training the operators, and we won't hand the key to just anyone. Without the key and password, nothing moves.



Interesting you should bring that up. As a test, we placed a pumpkin on a solid platform under one of our pipes. We then lowered the pipe at full speed (3 ft/sec) onto the pumpkin. Our intent was to show that even with the protection systems, you can still get hurt. The actual result is that the pipe stopped dead (less than 1/2" beyond where it hit the pumpkin) and the pumpkin was unscathed. (No students were present, so they wouldn't get the wrong idea... and no, don't do this at home.) No human operator on a counterweight system could react as fast. (We repeated the test with a watermelon, with the result that it did break... only because the hit with the pipe caused it to roll off the platform and hit the ground, where it broke)No argument there, which is why counterweight systems will always have a place in professional theater. It's the amateur environment that I'm concerned about.

I don't claim to be enough of an electrical engineer to understand everything that happens on that circuit board on the winch. Our electrician said that all the limits are on a separate module and he had to replace the whole module to get any of the limits working again. I gather there were five limits and none worked.
You obviously have experience with newer systems than myself, I've never seen a fly rig with a key or password protection. Our electric winches are just push buttons on a panel on the wall
My comment about expierienced flymen on counterweight rigs was geared more towards recognizing functional or maintenance issues. From my example with the limit switch, had a human being been on the rail flying out the set, they would have noticed when they got to the top of the gallery and quit pulling. I've also been on the rail and flown something and found myself saying "this doesn't feel right". and we stop and figure out what's wrong. Someone with they're finger on the button doesn't have the tactile relationship with what's moving to be able to recognize a problem. As for hitting pumpkins and actors with the pipe, it's a good experiment, albeit a waste of a perfectly good watermelon. Regardless of the rig used though, one should always know who or what is directly under a pipe, and adjust their actions accordingly. With a counterweight rig, I can fly in a set fast in a dark scene with a lot of changes or I can land the set gently enough to be silent while actors are onstage delivering lines during a live scene change. I'm yet to find that kind of flexibility in an electric winch.

 

[fredthe]

You obviously have experience with newer systems than myself, I've never seen a fly rig with a key or password protection. Our electric winches are just push buttons on a panel on the wall

True, I'm not talking about the simple push-button systems. Those can certanly be dangerous in the hands of the wrong people, and the wrong people may have easy access... not a safe combination.

...I've also been on the rail and flown something and found myself saying "this doesn't feel right". and we stop and figure out what's wrong. Someone with they're finger on the button doesn't have the tactile relationship with what's moving to be able to recognize a problem.

One of the features of the Clancy (and, I believe Hoffend) systems is load sensing... this is key to keeping the system safe, and without it I would probably go with counterweight. The Clancy load sensing is very responsive, with the motor stopping desd if it senses anything funny. But, of course you shouldn't depend on it for all of your safety... which leads to

As for hitting pumpkins and actors with the pipe, it's a good experiment, albeit a waste of a perfectly good watermelon. Regardless of the rig used though, one should always know who or what is directly under a pipe, and adjust their actions accordingly.

But not a waste of a good actor?
Our system has a very nice graphical display... which is why during training, we tell the operators "look at the screen now, because you'll never see anything move on it again." We stress that anyone operating the fly system must keep their eyes on the moving pieces and stage area, not on the screen. We've even placed it on a raised platform (not as high as a fly rail would be, though) to provide for better visibility to what is happening on stage.

With a counterweight rig, I can fly in a set fast in a dark scene with a lot of changes or I can land the set gently enough to be silent while actors are onstage delivering lines during a live scene change. I'm yet to find that kind of flexibility in an electric winch.

We have almost that flexibility with the Clancy system. On a per-move basis, we can set acceleration/deceleration rates, in addition to movement speed. If we want to move something at 1 ft/min, we can, repeatably and reliably, and it will always stop at the same height.

The Clancy Powerlift (and Hoffend Vortek) systems that have been developed over the past few years are totally different from traditional winch systems. I really do believe they have a place in High school and similar (amateur) venues. And, no, I'm not a dealer, just a satisfied user

 

[Sayen]

There is a real advantage in safety when dealing with amateur facilities - including schools - when you can lock out the system. No one can use our lifts without the password, which after load in only goes to whoever is operating rigging. I've heard of fires twice at local schools when a renter who was not supervised decided to fly fabrics in front of lights, and in both cases the fire destroyed the stage and soft goods. While there are other ways to avoid the problem, it is a safety feature that goes along with preventing bricks from being dropped or pipes from flying when out of weight.

 

[TheatreImage]

I am currently contracting in a newly renovated middle school PAC with 30 single purchase lines... on the school side it is very dangerous, we are talking 6th, 7th and 8th graders and a drama teacher that has no clue. On the rental side of things it is no problem because I am there to do it safely... I like the counter weight because i am used to it... but I fully believe in the electric winch safety, especially when kids are involved

 

[willbb123]

Well its not as convenient as a password, but all of our lineset breaks have locks on them. (Tiffin Scenic) If I wanted to, I could lock everything down. Because its a Professional theater, I never lock anything other then batten electrics.

Its also an advantage that our fly rail is 7' off the deck. So when we have groups in there is no reason anyone not trained on the fly should be up there.

 

[NJLX]

we don't have a fly tower or any fly space above the stage, but we can fly in 2 electrics, 2 borders, and our cyc. While I would love to see an electric winch system, the counterweight system we have works well, because the fly rail is 8' up, only accessible through the dressing room that has our patch bay. This means a total of 2 locked doors between the inexperienced safety hazard(random student/renter) and anything they could cause damage with(in terms of rigging, anyway)