Emergency DMX takeover

You know the old story, it's a nitch-market need so you can't prorate design costs over thousands or millions of units, so it ends up being expensive. There are many ways I could think of doing it, but they probably wouldn't pass code or inspection! As is typical of Doug, you can be sure this one would, and would interface properly with alarm/emergency panels properly. 5 volts to the relay and everything happens as sure as the sun rises in the morning.
 
I found, as expected, a Doug Fleenor box that could be put between the control computer and the dimmers. I didn't expect it to be almost 800 bucks, though.

http://www.dfd.com/pricing.html#ALARMINTERFACE

Does anyone have a pointer to a Big Red Button for this sort of ALL-ON takeover that would meet code and perhaps not cost 1/4 of my per-room budget for this project? :)

Depending on the dimmers, they may already have this feature built in. Many of ETC's systems have that as a built in option. There was a thread here the other day about a false activation even on the Smartpack dimmers.
 
I guess it's a matter of perspective, but $800 seems reasonable to me. I'm sure people have rolled their own, using arduino, or other hardware, but the work hardly seems worth the effort for a one-off.
There may be some architectural preset panels that also offer a contact closure, so depending on your needs, you could maybe get something more useful overall for the money.
 
The title is emergency DMX takeover. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that this is for code required emergency lighting. For code compliance the appropriate listing is required, and best I can tell the Fleenor device does not comply. ETC has one as noted; Strand has a listed DMX bypass; and I believe Pathway Connectivity has a device - SNAP Lighting Control Panel - that will comply but it does a lot, which leads me to believe it's more expensive than ETC's or Strand's if you don't need the other features.

If this is not code required, others offer lots of options.
 
It's not actually clear whether it's code-required, but it's a non-theatrical public occupancy, so I'm assuming it. That said, the mains-dimmers are new, so we'll make sure to look at whether what we spec comes equipped.

And yes, I expected it to be priced as a low volume item. That said, I have at least a bit of an idea what components cost, and this is stuff Doug's equipment all does -- which is why I looked at him first. Not to diss the man, but it *still* seems at least a factor of 2 more expensive than I would expect.

Maybe the coffee pot is cheaper...
 
It's not actually clear whether it's code-required, but it's a non-theatrical public occupancy, so I'm assuming it. That said, the mains-dimmers are new, so we'll make sure to look at whether what we spec comes equipped.

And yes, I expected it to be priced as a low volume item. That said, I have at least a bit of an idea what components cost, and this is stuff Doug's equipment all does -- which is why I looked at him first. Not to diss the man, but it *still* seems at least a factor of 2 more expensive than I would expect.

Maybe the coffee pot is cheaper...

Curious as to when you would need a code compliant automatic control transfer on an otherwise "performance" controller. Seems to me there should be a separate lighting system served by battery/generated power with either stand-alone fixtures, or an ALTS 3 phase or branch circuit system, why the need to guarantee that DMX from the control console to dimmers is provided for ?. Can't say I've ever heard of this requirement.

Attending the DMX transfer is the need to provide UPS or generated power to the backup device providing DMX.
 
Depending on the dimmers, they may already have this feature built in. Many of ETC's systems have that as a built in option. There was a thread here the other day about a false activation even on the Smartpack dimmers.

We have Sensor racks as well as a separate Unison dimmer rack for house lighting that has a "loss of power" sensor. When building power gets lost, the Unison gets powered off an automatic transfer switch with a feed from a generator. The Unison CEM can sense loss of building power and will drive all dimmers to full.
 
Curious as to when you would need a code compliant automatic control transfer on an otherwise "performance" controller. Seems to me there should be a separate lighting system served by battery/generated power with either stand-alone fixtures, or an ALTS 3 phase or branch circuit system, why the need to guarantee that DMX from the control console to dimmers is provided for ?. Can't say I've ever heard of this requirement.

Attending the DMX transfer is the need to provide UPS or generated power to the backup device providing DMX.
For all those DMX controlled LED house lights that you put in your new install instead of incandescent fed from that Sensor rack ;)
 
Chris 15 has it. Still needs emergency power - generator or inverter are common but not only option - for both lights and the control - DMX bypass here. There are other options. I use the DMX bypass to drive relays on as well for emergency lighting on stage and backstage.

ETC and I suspect others have some other options that meet code requirements.
 
The title is emergency DMX takeover. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that this is for code required emergency lighting. For code compliance the appropriate listing is required, and best I can tell the Fleenor device does not comply. ETC has one as noted; Strand has a listed DMX bypass; and I believe Pathway Connectivity has a device - SNAP Lighting Control Panel - that will comply but it does a lot, which leads me to believe it's more expensive than ETC's or Strand's if you don't need the other features.

If this is not code required, others offer lots of options.

Hi Bill, et al:

Good Morning!

Pathway Connectivity does not manufacture an Emergency DMX512 Bypass Controller. The SNAP Lighting Control panel is a DMX512-controlled, UL924-listed relay panel (8 or 16 1-pole relays) with an integral 16-channel 0-10VDC controller. It is an RDM responder. It is designed to support installations of LED (mostly) and Fluorescent (sometimes) architectural lighting (typically recessed or pendant downlights) that are fitted with 0-10VDC controlled drivers/ballasts. Should power to the internal controller card fail, the relays will close and the analog channels will go to full-bright status. There are contact closure inputs for interface with alarm systems & Normal/Emergency power transfer systems and designated relays and analog control channels can be patched to these inputs.

With both ETC and Phillips Strand making fine Emgergency DMX512 Bypass Controller products, there did not seem to be a justifiable business reason for Pathway Connectivity to enter that particular market. The debate can rage ad infinitum as to whether each downlight in a place of public assembly should have a unique DMX512 address, but our solution is based on the use of 0-10VDC controlled downlights fitted with "dim to black" drivers (they do exist) and targets small to medium size venues where 16 zones of control is more than adequate. Currently, there is a premium in the commercial dowlight market for a driver to be DMX512-enabled and when a facility will have 50 to 60 controllable downlights (not unusual) the cost of the SNAP panel is typically more than offset and considerably so.

Perhaps a representative of AC Lighting would like to weigh in with respect to the features set of their Inspire External Control Box. I believe that this might be a UL924 listed device as there is mention of that on their web site, but I believe it best for AC Lighting to discuss the features set of their product and whether it only supports their fixture or if it is intended for use with other DMX512 end devices.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Best Regards,
Pathway Connectivity



Van Rommel
Director Business development
 
Thanks for the correction. I saw the UL 924 and thought it would drive DMX channels as well as 0-10, but not so.
 
Chris 15 has it. Still needs emergency power - generator or inverter are common but not only option - for both lights and the control - DMX bypass here. There are other options. I use the DMX bypass to drive relays on as well for emergency lighting on stage and backstage.

ETC and I suspect others have some other options that meet code requirements.

Some brands of LED House / Work lights have a UL924-listed programmable internal default setting they can go to should the DMX source be interrupted. So, if the DMX signal system from the House / Work Light Controller goes-down, and there isn't a UL924-listed DMX transfer device, then the lights don't wake-up stupid, they wake-up to a predetermined level.

This does the same thing as a separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device that controls many lights. However, I'd rather have 90% of the House / Work lights come-on correctly (10% failure), than have none of them come on if the single separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device fails. Of course, using the 'department of redundancy department' approach would have you use the separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device AND House / Work Lights that have integral UL924-listed DMX transfer devices.

Another consideration is that the ETC device only drives up to 31 light fixtures, then you have to buy another one for the next 31 fixtures, etc. For a typical auditorium with 100+ lights, this means at least 4 of the transfer devices may be required. The Strand device will drive four lines of up to 31 fixtures each.

The illumination level required by the Fire Code is generally much less than 'FULL ON', so you can set all the LED lights to maybe 10-15% (whatever it takes to meet the code) and the electrical load on the emergency power system (generator / inverter) is significantly reduced. Less load usually means it costs less money. Example: If you have 100 houselights that can normally provide about 50 fc at FULL-ON for 200 watts each, then 100 of them at 10% could provide about 5 fc in a nice even coverage at about 20 watts each. This reduces the emergency power load from 20,000 watts to 2,000 watts. A 2,000 watt UL Listed battery type inverter that is self-monitoring and automatically reports to the Maintenance Department via pre-programmed emails will cut the long-term maintenance labor costs way down from dealing with a plethora of 'frog-eye battery packs'. The initial cost and long-term maintenance cost / hassle of a diesel generator is sometimes prohibitive.

This system design approach provides a whole-house emergency egress illumination rather than the spotty blinding effect of a bunch of 'frog-eyes'. We all know the batteries in the 'frog-eyes' don't get tested and replaced as frequently as they should, so by centralizing the load to a generator (or a single large inverter / battery) the over-all cost of the building is less. You don't need to pay for both LED houselights AND a separate 'frog-eye' system (and all the attendant labor and materials for wire and conduit). You also get the added aesthetic benefit of no 'frog-eyes'. Damn, those are soooo ugly in an auditorium . . .
 
I usually designate only a third or fourth of the houselights as em, and drive to full, do one DMX segment is not a problem.

As far as relying on a fixture to come to a setting on loss of DMX, I have concern about being sure of the loss of DMX. I prefer the central DMX transfer on power loss - any one or all three phases - or fa signal.

The nice thing about inverters is that they provide normal/emergency branch circuits, and can signal the DMX bypass to transfer, making it much simpler.
 
This does the same thing as a separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device that controls many lights. However, I'd rather have 90% of the House / Work lights come-on correctly (10% failure), than have none of them come on if the single separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device fails. Of course, using the 'department of redundancy department' approach would have you use the separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device AND House / Work Lights that have integral UL924-listed DMX transfer devices.

.

Actually, I read NEC 700.16 to require redundancy:

700.16 Emergency Illumination. Emergency illumination
shall include means of egress lighting, illuminated exit signs,
and all other luminaires specified as necessary to provide
required illumination.

Emergency lighting systems shall be designed and installed
so that the failure of any individual lighting element, such as
the burning out of a lamp, cannot leave in total darkness any
space that requires emergency illumination.

I think this failure includes the opening of an OCPD, the failure of a single luminaire, or the failure of a single piece of control equipment. Therefore, it can be argued that for a given space, you need a minimum of two of everything that is responsible for getting the emergency illumination on. I plan to make a proposal to the 2020 NEC to that effect. We'll see how that goes!

ST
 
I haven't applied that yet to DMX bypass, but is normal lighting when all is working plus emergency by it self not redundant? Or redundancy in emergency mode - after loss of normal power? Aside from wire to a fixture, I'm not seeing the single point, unless it's the DMX bypass, in which case the fixtures that get there normal data not through the DMX bypass probably work fine.

I hope your change can account for all this, maybe include a lot of appendix/fpn that explain where redundancy begins.

I'm liking more and more half the lighting on an inverter and DMX bypass and half only normal.

BTW, is a divider in a panel - like between em and normal - something that requires redundancy?
 
Not that these replies aren't helpful -- well, more 'interesting' -- but remember, this is a *restaurant*, not a theatre. Different requirements, no?
 
It seems you are trying to provide code required emergency lighting using the houselights fixtures. This will require an emergency power supply and transfer or bypass after the dimmers, if any. If a fixture that requires power and data, many possibilities, but still requires emergency power and some method of driving data line that uses UL 924 devices. In this age of LED lighting, it is not simple, like it use to be.
 

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