ERS Photometrics Help!

[LPdan]

I'm trying to compare photometrics between the Chauvet E-910FC and the ETC CSSPOT. I expected the E-910 to be brighter based on it's actual power consumption (240W vs. 147W).
If I'm doing this correctly, the E910 with 19 deg lens at 30 feet gives 84 footcandles. The CSSPOT with same lens and distance gives 107.6 footcandles.
Do I understand this correctly? Are the optics that much more efficient in the CSSPOT? Any help would be appreciated!

 

[RickR]

I've not seen them side by side, but I know ETC specs their high def lens tubes for all LED ERS.
@Ford ?

 

[ACTSTech]

I'm trying to compare photometrics between the Chauvet E-910FC and the ETC CSSPOT. I expected the E-910 to be brighter based on it's actual power consumption (240W vs. 147W).
If I'm doing this correctly, the E910 with 19 deg lens at 30 feet gives 84 footcandles. The CSSPOT with same lens and distance gives 107.6 footcandles.
Do I understand this correctly? Are the optics that much more efficient in the CSSPOT? Any help would be appreciated!

I understand, I do the same thing, but I’d say if you can’t give a side by side eyeball test, go with the ETC numbers. I would have argued that an old 1k par can had to be twice as bright as an ETC S4 par, since the S4 was 575w, but the eyeball test says pretty close. Not exactly, and of course the shape of the beam is different, but pretty close in intensity.

 

[cbrandt]

It is important to take every photometric report of an LED with a grain of salt. Everyone measures them differently, and that can yield wildly varying results. Everyone will also tell you that they are far more accurate, with a higher attention to detail, than the next person. Before you make a big decision, get them side by side. Furthermore, try swapping the lens tubes from on to the other and compare again. The glass can make a huge difference, and not always in the way that you expect it. I haven't put those fixtures side by side myself.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

You mean to say ANSI E1.9 - 2007 (R2017) has not solved this?

 

[JAC]

Where LEDs are concerned, not all watts are created equal. The lumens per watt can vary quite a bit. As others have said, meaningful comparisons of manufacturers' photometric data are tricky. I've seen both of those fixtures and my gut says output would be similar, but I've never looked at them side-by-side and I could be surprised. Your best bet is a side-by-side comparison, which a dealer in your area can arrange for you.

 

[dvsDave]

I'm trying to compare photometrics between the Chauvet E-910FC and the ETC CSSPOT. I expected the E-910 to be brighter based on it's actual power consumption (240W vs. 147W).
If I'm doing this correctly, the E910 with 19 deg lens at 30 feet gives 84 footcandles. The CSSPOT with same lens and distance gives 107.6 footcandles.
Do I understand this correctly? Are the optics that much more efficient in the CSSPOT? Any help would be appreciated!

Who is your local/regional dealer? Contact them and they can help get you demo units so you can compare them side by side. I always recommend working through your local/regional dealer. They can get you the details and pricing and help you make a better educated decision. This one of those times where CB can only be of limited help. You need to get the fixtures into your space and see what you prefer. I am have worked with both fixtures and both are great. See what works best alongside your existing equipment and console, see what matches best with your equipment. Test fade-up and fade-down times and see how well they match/mimic your existing fixtures.

@Ben Dickmann is the product manager for the Ovation series over at Chauvet and he can answer any questions that Chauvet's extensive documentation doesn't cover.

Are these your first LED profiles? There are some really good resources to check out. @tomlittrell is the ETC Outreach and Training Specialist and he has a number of great presentations on mixing LEDs and conventional fixtures. Not sure if they are available online or if you have to attend a trade show or ETC's annual training conference CUE.

Here's a great video from @JIm Uphoff, who is the Fixtures Product Manager at ETC about why Lime Emitters are great in LEDs. Something that both the Colorsource series and the Ovation series have in their LED arrays.

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[Ben Dickmann]

I'm trying to compare photometrics between the Chauvet E-910FC and the ETC CSSPOT. I expected the E-910 to be brighter based on it's actual power consumption (240W vs. 147W).
If I'm doing this correctly, the E910 with 19 deg lens at 30 feet gives 84 footcandles. The CSSPOT with same lens and distance gives 107.6 footcandles.
Do I understand this correctly? Are the optics that much more efficient in the CSSPOT? Any help would be appreciated!

By the empirical data, yes, you are correct.

BUT (there's always 1)

I would highly suggest getting a demo and shooting it out for yourself.

There are plenty of other factors at play here (4-color system as opposed to 5-color for example) which can aid or hinder photometric output data. Having been present for this shoot-out many, many times now, I'd say just look at them together and make choice for yourself based on YOUR observations.

Honestly, you really can't go wrong with either fixture. I would look at the features and benefits of each, as well as things like noise, dimming performance, connector preference, cost and go from there.

 

[macsound]

I've always just given etc the credit that they made the best choice by adding lime, but especially when looking at the graphs, I don't see how lime helps the majority of colors we use in theatre...

 

[dvsDave]

I've always just given etc the credit that they made the best choice by adding lime, but especially when looking at the graphs, I don't see how lime helps the majority of colors we use in theatre...

It's amazing how much Lime helps. Especially in greens and yellows and even orange. Saturation is just much better. (and as far as use in theatres... you ever see Wicked? )

The next big thing in LEDs is Cyan. That helps the blue range, much like Lime helps the green range. It's all about extending the color space that an LED array can reach. We actually have an Honest To God Color Scientist on CB, he's currently getting his PhD at Rochester Institute of Technology, our very own @TuckerD who might be willing to clarify any points that I might mangle.

 

[macsound]

With plenty of sass: Of course I can see how lime helps wicked...

Maybe I'm just oldschool but I was taught the one way to make everyone on stage look puke-ish is replace one of your frontlights with a green gel.
In that sense, even the conventional LED way of creating amber by mixing green and red seemed garish.

Wasn't it the Vivid Desire's that had more saturated colors. Like vivid was designed for downlight and regular Desires for front.

Back to the original poster's question.
Photometrics on an LED fixture that changes color has to be done with the eye. Especially if you are using the Eos color picker since it's calibrated. Knowing how bright a light is when all colors are at 100% can be quite different than true white.

 

[LukeDelwiche]

If you are wondering about the output of an ETC luminaire in a "gel color" or standard CCT, the free MyETC: Photometrics app is a good starting point, as you can do just that.

 

[LPdan]

Thanks for all the info and advice! Wish it was as simple as comparing hard numbers but this helps explain why it isn’t.

 

[Gobokat]

For what it's worth - I did side by side at my local dealer and then ended up going with the Chauvet Ovation for my installation. I found that side by side they really performed very similarly, certainly not seeing a 20% output difference, but Chauvet (at least in my case) was a better dollar value. I would suggest definitely purchasing these with the Chauvet lenses and not using ETC lens tubes, even the EDLT versions.
But as others have said - best choice in making your decision is to hang a couple of each in your space and light them up for a half hour and see how they work for you and your space.

 

[Brandon Merkle]

I have compared these side-by-side. I would actually say the Ovation is a skosh brighter, BUT, I was shooting out without the EDLT lens on the CS Spot. In general, the Ovation Spots were built to compete with the Source Four Lustrs, which are noticeably brighter than the CS Spots (with all emitters at full).

 

[TuckerD]

@dvsDave thank you for the prompt. Asking the question "why lime" is actually very insightful and was VERY fun to think about! I hope that the answer is somewhat clarified by this article I wrote. I apologize for taking so long but I wanted to make sure I had some good graphics! I'd be happy to answer more questions. (And sorry for linking away but I thought it would be best to host the article on my website!)

"A common trend in fixture design among LED lighting fixtures targeted at the entertainment lighting market is the inclusion of a lime LED. The lime LED is a blue pump phosphor converted LED which results in a broadband emission. This broadband characteristic is typically avoided by most LED buyers, who are interested in producing products with a wide gamut and high maximum saturation. However, for the goal of improving color rendering, broadband LEDs are critical. In this blog post I provide several renderings which represent different types of lighting fixtures. In these renderings you will see that the fixtures which include lime LEDs, among other colors, have dramatically better color rendering than their counterparts."

Why Lime?

LED Fixture Design – Why Lime? A common trend in fixture design among LED lighting fixtures targeted at the entertainment lighting market is the inclusion of a lime LED. The lime LED is a blu…

tuckerd.info