ETC Enters LED market with purchase of Selador
- Thread starterSteveB
- Start date
The bigger problem I see is that everyone is looking for LEDs to replace incandescent lamps. The issue (beyond luminance) is that they do not represent the full color spectrum (see Light-emitting diode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). While you can mix the colors on a white background to fool our eyes to believe that there is any color possibility, you may have some suprising results when lighting colored sets and costumes. Even the RGBW LED fixtures have gaps in the spectrum.
So, before everyone goes and puts on their wish lists to replace all incandescent fixtures with LEDs, consider what you're lighting.
Also, with the plasma source, you are then required to have an external douser similar to an HID source. What I like about them is that they have a wonderful color temperature, but you are getting a much different dimming solution. If you are using a wash fixture, it's less of an issue than when using an elipsoidal which will make the dousing more apparent. What they weren't able to tell us at LDI about the plasma source is how much RF interferrence they create (they know that they do emit some RF). That will affect audio and video running near those fixtures (more than just the normal 60 cycle hum). I was also concerned that actors sometimes have a hard enough time finding their light from an incandescent source that provides heat and those lamps were so darn cool. ;^)
So, before everyone goes and puts on their wish lists to replace all incandescent fixtures with LEDs, consider what you're lighting.
Also, with the plasma source, you are then required to have an external douser similar to an HID source. What I like about them is that they have a wonderful color temperature, but you are getting a much different dimming solution. If you are using a wash fixture, it's less of an issue than when using an elipsoidal which will make the dousing more apparent. What they weren't able to tell us at LDI about the plasma source is how much RF interferrence they create (they know that they do emit some RF). That will affect audio and video running near those fixtures (more than just the normal 60 cycle hum). I was also concerned that actors sometimes have a hard enough time finding their light from an incandescent source that provides heat and those lamps were so darn cool. ;^)
I've been in Lust with Selador for some time now. When ETC purchased Selador I was thrilled. I still don't own any but I'm working on it. I just got some pricing info on Selador by ETC. I do have hard numbers but I'm going to be a little vague to keep my sources happy with me. How much will they actually cost you? Call your favorite ETC dealer to find out. If you are unfamiliar with how pricing works in the industry please see this article.
There are now three models of Seladors:
Lustr with 2.5 watt Rebel LED's that are optimized for pastels and whites
Paletta with 2.5 watt Rebel LED's the middle ground for pastels and colors... probably the one you want for live theater
Vivid with 3.5 watt Rebel LED's optimized for heavily saturated colors.
The List prices on the 11" fixtures comes in around $1200-$1500 with Paletta the cheapest, Lustr just slightly more and Vivid on top of the range. The largest 53" models list for around $6,000-$6750.
With the original Selador products the price was pretty straight forward per foot with little or no variation in "dollars per inch of fixture" (i.e. the 4' version would cost 4 times the 1' version). When I look at the new list prices and calculate "dollars per inch of fixture" there is now a definite savings in buying larger fixtures. For example, buying one 53" Paletta will save you a little over 10% over the cost of buying five 11" models. Thanks ETC.
ETC apparently decided to go à la Carte with accessories. The fixture comes with a bare Neutrik PowerCon connection, no pigtail, no yoke, no c-clamp, no floor trunions, no diffusion lenses. This seemed odd to me at first but there are a wide variety of possible configuration options. If they gave you everything the price would be rather high for things you don't need. Selador used to charge over $150 for the complete lens kit now they are available individually for less than $20. So I suppose it's better this way. From what I've learned I think the typical user will probably add around $100-$150 in accessories for a typical hanging 11" fixture.
Shut up Gaff, how much is it going to cost on the street? I don't want to make my friends unhappy so again I will be vague here. I got a quote on 11" Palettas. If you add a Yoke, C-clamp, PowerCon to Edison pig tale, two horizontal lenses, and two vertical lenses. You can expect to pay around $1100-$1200 per fixture (no shipping or tax included in that). Taking the list prices my other source gave me and applying what I learned from the price quote on the 11" Paletta I would predict the street price on the 21" Palette with accessories to be around $2k and the 53" Paletta to be in the low to mid $5k range. Again you need to get a quote from your ETC dealer to find out how much they will cost you.
Over all there is a nice drop in price and an increase in output over the original Selador's. I'm going to guess that the new Vivids, with their 2.5 watt Rebel LED's, will match if not outperform the original 3 watt Selador X7-Xtras, with their K2 emitters. The old X7-Xtras had a street price about $1500 per foot with all the accessories. The most expensive model in the new line, Vivid at 3.5 watts Rebel LED’s, is going to outperform that old model significantly and cost around $1k less for the largest model.
Two years ago I was quoted about $60k to light a 40’ cyc (to a level that won’t instantly wash out) using Selador X7-Xtras. Thanks to the new higher output LED’s and with the pricing drop that cyc is probably going to cost at least $10k-$15k less to light today. The light from these fixtures is amazingly beautiful. The colors created by the 7 color mixing system are so much more vibrant than anything else on the market. Get a demo you have to see these things in action.
I’m really excited about what the next five to ten years has in store for us as the technology gets even better and the prices come down further.
There are now three models of Seladors:
Lustr with 2.5 watt Rebel LED's that are optimized for pastels and whites
Paletta with 2.5 watt Rebel LED's the middle ground for pastels and colors... probably the one you want for live theater
Vivid with 3.5 watt Rebel LED's optimized for heavily saturated colors.
The List prices on the 11" fixtures comes in around $1200-$1500 with Paletta the cheapest, Lustr just slightly more and Vivid on top of the range. The largest 53" models list for around $6,000-$6750.
With the original Selador products the price was pretty straight forward per foot with little or no variation in "dollars per inch of fixture" (i.e. the 4' version would cost 4 times the 1' version). When I look at the new list prices and calculate "dollars per inch of fixture" there is now a definite savings in buying larger fixtures. For example, buying one 53" Paletta will save you a little over 10% over the cost of buying five 11" models. Thanks ETC.
ETC apparently decided to go à la Carte with accessories. The fixture comes with a bare Neutrik PowerCon connection, no pigtail, no yoke, no c-clamp, no floor trunions, no diffusion lenses. This seemed odd to me at first but there are a wide variety of possible configuration options. If they gave you everything the price would be rather high for things you don't need. Selador used to charge over $150 for the complete lens kit now they are available individually for less than $20. So I suppose it's better this way. From what I've learned I think the typical user will probably add around $100-$150 in accessories for a typical hanging 11" fixture.
Shut up Gaff, how much is it going to cost on the street? I don't want to make my friends unhappy so again I will be vague here. I got a quote on 11" Palettas. If you add a Yoke, C-clamp, PowerCon to Edison pig tale, two horizontal lenses, and two vertical lenses. You can expect to pay around $1100-$1200 per fixture (no shipping or tax included in that). Taking the list prices my other source gave me and applying what I learned from the price quote on the 11" Paletta I would predict the street price on the 21" Palette with accessories to be around $2k and the 53" Paletta to be in the low to mid $5k range. Again you need to get a quote from your ETC dealer to find out how much they will cost you.
Over all there is a nice drop in price and an increase in output over the original Selador's. I'm going to guess that the new Vivids, with their 2.5 watt Rebel LED's, will match if not outperform the original 3 watt Selador X7-Xtras, with their K2 emitters. The old X7-Xtras had a street price about $1500 per foot with all the accessories. The most expensive model in the new line, Vivid at 3.5 watts Rebel LED’s, is going to outperform that old model significantly and cost around $1k less for the largest model.
Two years ago I was quoted about $60k to light a 40’ cyc (to a level that won’t instantly wash out) using Selador X7-Xtras. Thanks to the new higher output LED’s and with the pricing drop that cyc is probably going to cost at least $10k-$15k less to light today. The light from these fixtures is amazingly beautiful. The colors created by the 7 color mixing system are so much more vibrant than anything else on the market. Get a demo you have to see these things in action.
I’m really excited about what the next five to ten years has in store for us as the technology gets even better and the prices come down further.
jmabray
Active Member
There is a lensing system that will allow you to spread the beam from 20 to 80 degrees either Horizontal or Vertical (Or both if you put one of each lens on the front of the fixture).
The only thing I want to correct from Gaff's statments above is that 1) the Vivid's are probably what you want in live theatre rather than the Paletta's. And that the Vivids are 3.5watt LED's. (In one of his last paragraphs there is some confusion as to what power of LEDs each model is using....)
The only thing I want to correct from Gaff's statments above is that 1) the Vivid's are probably what you want in live theatre rather than the Paletta's. And that the Vivids are 3.5watt LED's. (In one of his last paragraphs there is some confusion as to what power of LEDs each model is using....)
jmabray
Active Member
What were you using to get the white? Just curious as most control consoles are not set up to do 7 color mixing and don't know how to handle it. (Even the EOS/ION line can't do it just right yet as I understand it). The only console that really knows what to do with them is a Congo.
As for the CK, of course it is a good "white" fixture. It's only got white LED's. Try getting an R80 or R26 out of it...
Anything with Multiple colors of LED mixing to get white is going to take some futzing.
As for the CK, of course it is a good "white" fixture. It's only got white LED's. Try getting an R80 or R26 out of it...
Anything with Multiple colors of LED mixing to get white is going to take some futzing.
An EOS (with the most current software revision). No problems with either the color picker or the color mixing. Unlike most RGB fixtures whose white is too pink, the Vivid was too blue with all colors at full. IIRC, running the indigo at 50% and the blue at about 80% seemed to make a better 3200 K, SourceFour "white," but with a loss of intensity.
Below are some summary quotes from the ETC website.
"Lustr™ is the white light specialist in the Selador™ Series. Think watercolors – warm or cool pure white light slowly evolving into the softest tints and color shadings. In Lustr, the x7 Color System™ is optimized to produce theatrical-quality whites and tints that render pigments and skintones in their natural appearance. For key and fill light applications the Lustr features a yoke for one- and two-cell fixtures as well as frosted optics for a soft beam of light that blends well with your existing Source Fours®. The Lustr’s subtle tinting capability is also the perfect solution for lighting scenery."
"Paletta™ is the jewel-tone specialist in the Selador™ Series. Think artist’s pastels – deep, rich colors softly washing and blending. Paletta combines the x7 Color System™ and a finely-tuned array of Luxeon® Rebel LEDs with soft diffused optics to offer an incredible range of richly saturated color and pastels simply not available in conventional LED fixtures. Go ahead and dig deep into your swatch book for your favorite magentas and lavenders – Paletta is there to deliver."
"VIVID™ is the color and intensity powerhouse in the Selador™ Series. Think oil paints – a luminaire with the kind of brilliant, bold saturated color that only LEDs can deliver. VIVID’s mix of high-power Luxeon® K2 LEDs is specially balanced for maximum color production with a strong, cutting beam of light. And, with the low-heat output of the Selador Series, you can have your colors blazing, without ever over-heating your talent."
Derek: Vivid is definitely not the right one to be trying to make a good white with you want Lustr or maybe Paletta. The old Selador's had the ability to make a very good mix of white color temperatures... did you ever make it back to their booth at LDI and see the color temp demo or did you get distracted by the nearby ETC Lounge? I'm guessing that Paletta is close to the original Selador X7 color saturation mix. They clearly cranked up the saturation to make Vivid and toned it down for Lustr. It would be interesting to get a comment from one of our ETC friends about how they compare to the originals as far as color saturation and intensity.
Jmabray: From these descriptions it sounds like Lustr is the choice for key and fill. Paletta a good choice for sides and down. Vivid the choice for back, cycs, and concert lighting.
"Lustr™ is the white light specialist in the Selador™ Series. Think watercolors – warm or cool pure white light slowly evolving into the softest tints and color shadings. In Lustr, the x7 Color System™ is optimized to produce theatrical-quality whites and tints that render pigments and skintones in their natural appearance. For key and fill light applications the Lustr features a yoke for one- and two-cell fixtures as well as frosted optics for a soft beam of light that blends well with your existing Source Fours®. The Lustr’s subtle tinting capability is also the perfect solution for lighting scenery."
"Paletta™ is the jewel-tone specialist in the Selador™ Series. Think artist’s pastels – deep, rich colors softly washing and blending. Paletta combines the x7 Color System™ and a finely-tuned array of Luxeon® Rebel LEDs with soft diffused optics to offer an incredible range of richly saturated color and pastels simply not available in conventional LED fixtures. Go ahead and dig deep into your swatch book for your favorite magentas and lavenders – Paletta is there to deliver."
"VIVID™ is the color and intensity powerhouse in the Selador™ Series. Think oil paints – a luminaire with the kind of brilliant, bold saturated color that only LEDs can deliver. VIVID’s mix of high-power Luxeon® K2 LEDs is specially balanced for maximum color production with a strong, cutting beam of light. And, with the low-heat output of the Selador Series, you can have your colors blazing, without ever over-heating your talent."
Derek: Vivid is definitely not the right one to be trying to make a good white with you want Lustr or maybe Paletta. The old Selador's had the ability to make a very good mix of white color temperatures... did you ever make it back to their booth at LDI and see the color temp demo or did you get distracted by the nearby ETC Lounge? I'm guessing that Paletta is close to the original Selador X7 color saturation mix. They clearly cranked up the saturation to make Vivid and toned it down for Lustr. It would be interesting to get a comment from one of our ETC friends about how they compare to the originals as far as color saturation and intensity.
Jmabray: From these descriptions it sounds like Lustr is the choice for key and fill. Paletta a good choice for sides and down. Vivid the choice for back, cycs, and concert lighting.
Very True. LED's can perform on a CYC in ways that incandescent light can only dream of.
On the other hand there was that recent story of the school district going green and "upgrading" to all Chauvet LED instruments.
I think there is a lot of traction out there in educational world especialy to bring in green solutions. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot of Lustr moving off the shelf for small educational theater setups. I've got an 8x12 stage here at the college in the new student union. They want a nice wash and the ability to do some color if they book a SMALL band. They are eager to be green and use LED's. I'm thinking a combination of Lustr and Paletta with an Element. I'll program 40 color combination on an Element in all submaster mode and they will be VERY happy.David Ashton
Well-Known Member
I did get to see some of the 11" ETC Selador units at the tradeshow here in SLC last week. I have to say, while the color mixing is nice, even 4 of them with spreader lenses couldn't give nearly enough coverage to put an even wash on the 10' ETC booth's backdrop (maybe 8-10' wide by 8' tall. Without a lens they almost give a beam distribution like a PAR64 ACL. Does anyone know the efficiency of the lenses, because it seems like you stand to loose a lot of light with them. Also, the 4 units could not compete with the overhead fluorescents, so how do they compete with stage lights? Every time I see these fixtures, I wonder when they will really be ready for full scale theatrical implementation.
jmabray
Active Member
Actually, I was doing some cost comparisons with a consultant friend of mine. It was almost a wash on a new install when you consider the cost of the dimmers, wire, conduit, electrician, fixtures etc, on a new install. That didn't really include the energy, gel, lamp etc savings over the life of the installation...
(of course YMMV depending upon fixture, manufacturer, Electrician costs, etc)
I'm in charge of an electrical renovation at a nearby 150-seat community theatre, and it probably will be much cheaper to purchase all LED's than the long-term expenses of incandescents, plus having to upgrade the service to the building. Right now, I'm thinking a hybrid system of partially incandescents, but the washes and general lighting via Selador. I'm still waiting to hear back from Rob Gerlach and Dave Lincecum on what their thoughts are though, as they know the Selador line better than anyone else right now.
I have consultants and electricians walking the space in mid-April, and after I've done that and we've weighed the pro's and con's, I'll get back to you. We're looking to make this a real "going green" project though, so all of the lighting in the building, not just theatrical, will be redone, and we're also exploring throwing solar panels on the roof. Everything said and done, I hope this theatre can stand to be a model for energy efficiency in the entertainment industry. However it's going to be very expensive, both for the LED's and for the lighting in the building, and also the solar, so with that large up-front price tag, I'll spend two or three weeks in the next few months just applying for grants.
David Ashton
Well-Known Member
Using leds you have no fresnels and no profiles and no cyc lights, in the sense of an even cover from top to bottom, apart from that they're great.
And please don't tell me about the great new cyc lights, just post a picture of an evenly lit cyc, I have yet to see one.
It's really a throw-back to the old days of x-rays giving a base wash and adding in spotlights,
Now if you want a real revolution look at this,
http://www.robe.cz/default.aspx?con...3&newsid=b07b582d-ac8a-4e7c-a31d-e283b9ad207f
And please don't tell me about the great new cyc lights, just post a picture of an evenly lit cyc, I have yet to see one.
It's really a throw-back to the old days of x-rays giving a base wash and adding in spotlights,
Now if you want a real revolution look at this,
http://www.robe.cz/default.aspx?con...3&newsid=b07b582d-ac8a-4e7c-a31d-e283b9ad207f
Last edited:
I am with David on this one. I have yet to see an LED cyc fixture that can do even as well as MR-16 Zip-Strips. Also, you may get a lower wattage, but boy lemme tell you, you get plenty of heat off the 11" ETC Selador model, so the bigger brothers must get really hot.
I do think that the LiFi plasma lamp technology has more potential to make it into widespread use before LED. However, I have heard that at least SeaChanger is having issues getting the Nemo UL listed. I don't know about Robe. Once they conquer that barrier though, I think we will start seeing way more plasma powered devices than LEDs.
Don't get me wrong, the Selador product is a great product, but personally, I don't know if it is ready for theatrical applications.
Well, I hate to disagree, but...
as the user of about 460 feet of Selador LED lighting, they seem quite usable in theatrical and broadcast applications. Using a combination of vertical and horizontal lensing, a very even, 3 row wash has been created for a cyc in one of the venues I work in. The biggest problem we have, and had before the LEDs, was that the surface of the cyc we use (being a white wall) is not perfectly smooth nor flat, creating some shadowing. The LEDs are so bright that we typically run them at far less than full intensity, particularly in video applications.
The lack of a console with a mixing engine that appropriately deals with 7 colors is not much of a problem, in fact it is a bit more liberating because I can create, IMHO, better mixes of color than I think the computer can. These get dumped into palettes.
Before the installation in the current venue, we tested them in a far more conventional theater and were so pleased we intend to install them in that venue and in some of our other venues as soon as is reasonable.
Having used both standard cyc lights and the LEDs, I think I would go LED almost every time. So many more options, it looks and mixes so much better, and the maintainance time and costs are non-existant. The extra colors of the Selador make the looks just that more stunning.
as the user of about 460 feet of Selador LED lighting, they seem quite usable in theatrical and broadcast applications. Using a combination of vertical and horizontal lensing, a very even, 3 row wash has been created for a cyc in one of the venues I work in. The biggest problem we have, and had before the LEDs, was that the surface of the cyc we use (being a white wall) is not perfectly smooth nor flat, creating some shadowing. The LEDs are so bright that we typically run them at far less than full intensity, particularly in video applications.
The lack of a console with a mixing engine that appropriately deals with 7 colors is not much of a problem, in fact it is a bit more liberating because I can create, IMHO, better mixes of color than I think the computer can. These get dumped into palettes.
Before the installation in the current venue, we tested them in a far more conventional theater and were so pleased we intend to install them in that venue and in some of our other venues as soon as is reasonable.
Having used both standard cyc lights and the LEDs, I think I would go LED almost every time. So many more options, it looks and mixes so much better, and the maintainance time and costs are non-existant. The extra colors of the Selador make the looks just that more stunning.
Similar threads
