Conventional Fixtures ETC S4 zoom vs S4 JR zoom

[LavaASU]

So... I'm looking for some s4s to replace a combination of fresnels and 360Qs (no one will be sad to see those go!). Yes, I realize a S4 does not a fresnel make... however a S4 with heavy diffusion will do what we need. Is it worth the extra ~$200 to get the S4 zoom (25-50) vs the S4 jr zoom? I've only used the regular S4s. Size/weight are definitely an issue on a lot of our shows, and we'd only lamp at 575 anyways 95% of the time (likely always!). Are there any real drawback to the JRs other that the 575W limit?

The previous thread I found was for fixed lenses (which we're not interested in) vs zooms.

Thanks!

 

[church]

So... I'm looking for some s4s to replace a combination of fresnels and 360Qs (no one will be sad to see those go!). Yes, I realize a S4 does not a fresnel make... however a S4 with heavy diffusion will do what we need. Is it worth the extra ~$200 to get the S4 zoom (25-50) vs the S4 jr zoom? I've only used the regular S4s. Size/weight are definitely an issue on a lot of our shows, and we'd only lamp at 575 anyways 95% of the time (likely always!). Are there any real drawback to the JRs other that the 575W limit?

The previous thread I found was for fixed lenses (which we're not interested in) vs zooms.

Thanks!

ETC makes as fresnel, using an ellipsoidal with frost to replace a frenel is an expensive solution. There are excellent fresnels out there by a number of manufacturers, the Altman 360Q is a good unit for it's price. I own the S4 zooms and there are times when they are worth their weight in gold and that is a lot of gold - they are heavy units and can be awkward because of the balance point. The S$ junior zoom is smaller and lighter. Regardless they are both expensive options compared to a fresnel.

 

[chausman]

Personally, I thought the S4 Jr. had a weird way to adjust the zoom. I liked the S4 Zoom better.

 

[derekleffew]

The advantages of the Jr. over the Sr. are size and weight (and cost). The disadvantages are the same as any comparison between the Jr. and Sr.: not as bright, M-size gobo, non-rotatable shutters, 575W only, and so on.

Personally, I thought the S4 Jr. had a weird way to adjust the zoom. I liked the S4 Zoom better.

FWIW, I find the focus of the full-size peculiar. Not a deal breaker, just different than all other zoom profile units dating back to the 1980s (1970s if one counts the EC Parellipsphere).

 

[josh88]

didn't have any problem with the adjusting the zoom, though it would be a little more difficult from above. I accessed them from a genie below and it was actually pretty nice. The not as bright, and barrel that won't rotate for the shutters is incredibly frustrating. However they are tiny little things and real light.

 

[LavaASU]

Sorry, should've clarified as far as the fresnel comment was concerned. We're buying them to replace 360Q lekos, but could use them with frost as a sort of wash if needed. The fresnels and 360Qs are not used together due to lack of power.

 

[SteveB]

Of 2 spaces in our facility, the Black Box uses S4 Jrs's (60 total) while the road house uses a lot of the full size 25/50's and 15/30's (84 of 200 ellipsoidals total).

I'm a big fan of zooms, having steadily increased my ellipsoidal inventory with them for 25 years now, transitioning from Colortran 6"/15-30's to Altman Shakespeare 15-30's and Altman 4.5" 25/50's and now to ETC. The Source 4 6" zoom is by far the best zoom I've used. It's very fast to focus and stay's focused. I just installed 16 of the 15-30 series and have zero issues with them being front heavy. Note that I cannot recall if the range on some of these is actually 15-35, or 30. Doesn't matter.

That said, we use them because we have a "rep plot" at the road house that we don't change and need the flexibility zooms offer. The 6" units are all in a house where they are hung on winched electrics (or box booms), so weight and size is not an issue, even though they are about 50% heavier then a standard S4 36 degree. We do not have time to swap lenses and it's cheaper to buy a 25/50 ($472 at Pro Advantage) then a 36 deg. with supplemental 26 and 50 degree lenses (Total of $508). Plus we save union labor costs not changing lens tubes around.

I probably would not use the 6" zoom in a house where I was hanging every week or where it was other then a pipe grid. Our Dept. of Theater black box is all Uni-Strut/Versa-Bar and the lighter weight of a junior zoom is an advantage. The size is an advantage as well on a low ceiling.

But as others have stated,, you give up shutter and image rotation with the Junior, though the DoT compensates with an inventory of fixed lens Shakespeares to do their gobo washes, so in this application, the Junior makes sense as it provides the bulk of the area lighting.

Your call if the 575 is bright enough.

 

[icewolf08]

If you really want zoom fixtures, and the goal is to be light weight and efficient, you might look into the Stand/Phillips/Selecon SPX. They are much smaller and lighter than the S4 Zoom and they are optically superior. I don't remember where they price out, but may be worth looking into.

SPX Ellipsoidal | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand

 

[derekleffew]

... and they are optically superior. ...

Is this opinion based on a side-by-side comparison or marketing hyperbole? By "optically superior," do you mean brighter, sharper gobo projection, both, or some other criteria? Does it hold true for all fixed angles as well as zooms?

 

[shiben]

Sorry, should've clarified as far as the fresnel comment was concerned. We're buying them to replace 360Q lekos, but could use them with frost as a sort of wash if needed. The fresnels and 360Qs are not used together due to lack of power.

Why not replace your Fresnels with S4 PARs or S4 Fresnels, and keep your 360Q lekos, which probably still work perfectly well as ERSs. I dont see the point in buying pretty expensive units unless your current ones are so beat to hell that you just cant use them at all anymore. I still see quite a few at smaller theaters around here, lots in the storefronts.

 

[LavaASU]

Why not replace your Fresnels with S4 PARs or S4 Fresnels, and keep your 360Q lekos, which probably still work perfectly well as ERSs. I dont see the point in buying pretty expensive units unless your current ones are so beat to hell that you just cant use them at all anymore. I still see quite a few at smaller theaters around here, lots in the storefronts.

Because the main thing we use (or try) the lekos for is gobo projection and the 360Qs eat gobos for lunch. They also melt glass...

 

[icewolf08]

Is this opinion based on a side-by-side comparison or marketing hyperbole? By "optically superior," do you mean brighter, sharper gobo projection, both, or some other criteria? Does it hold true for all fixed angles as well as zooms?

We have only compared the zoom fixtures, and the biggest thing we looked at was templates. S4 Zooms are terrible template units, the SPX seemed to have the edge (pardon the pun).

However, if the OP intends to use ERS foxtures for template projection, it would seem advisable to get fixed beam units as fixed beam units are almost always sharper and brighter than zooms.

 

[SteveB]

S4 Zooms are terrible template units, .

Bull_ _ _ .

And as note that you are re-opening this whole Zoom vs. Fixed war all over again and I KNOW we've been down this road.....

I've been using S4 25/50 zooms for, oh' about 6 years now. We're a road house so the events that come thru often have LD's who see all kinds of gear. I have yet to have anybody complain that the image from a zoom was inferior to a fixed lens (regular, not HD), nor make any kind of comment as to poor quality. If anything, most are appreciative of the ability to adjust image size.

I also regularly get LD's from Europe who are baffled that typical US spaces use fixed lens units, where as in Europe a zoom is the norm.

 

[Kelite]

Having sold, well... a heckofalota B sized patterns over the years, and answering many ellipsoidal related questions- I have yet to hear that a pattern does not project as crisply with a S4 Zoom as with a fixed beam S4 (regular, non EDLT lens). Perhaps those calls have indeed come in, I have merely not heard of one...

 

[techieman33]

Never had any issues getting a sharp edge on a gobo in a s4 zoom. It usually takes some work though since their focus knob and I don't get along to well. I don't know why they couldn't stick to the same mechanism that every other zoom in the industry uses.

 

[icewolf08]

Bull_ _ _ .

And as note that you are re-opening this whole Zoom vs. Fixed war all over again and I KNOW we've been down this road.....

I've been using S4 25/50 zooms for, oh' about 6 years now. We're a road house so the events that come thru often have LD's who see all kinds of gear. I have yet to have anybody complain that the image from a zoom was inferior to a fixed lens (regular, not HD), nor make any kind of comment as to poor quality. If anything, most are appreciative of the ability to adjust image size.

I also regularly get LD's from Europe who are baffled that typical US spaces use fixed lens units, where as in Europe a zoom is the norm.

Not to tear open this wound and completely diverge from the OPs question... However, you always make sacrifices when you move from a fixed beam to a zoom fixture. Usually these sacrifices are in image quality, brightness, and chromatic aberration.

The same principles apply to ERS fixtures as to camera lenses. A prime lens (single focal length) will almost always hands down give you far superior image quality than a zoom. Photographic lenses are manufactured to a far superior standard than most lenses in theatrical lighting fixtures, and even so, many an untrained eye can tell the difference in an image.

This is not to say that zoom fixtures are bad or don't have a place in our inventories. There are many great advantages to a zoom fixture, especially in a roadhouse situation. However, I can tell you this, the brightness and image clarity from my S4 15/30 zooms lamped at 750w just doesn't compare to what I can get from a 19* or 36* lamped at 575w, and we do regular maintenance on our units to keep them in the best shape we can.

All that being said, if looking only at zoom fixtures, as with fixed beam units, some are better than others. I think there are better choices out there for a zoom unit than a source 4. However, everyone has an opinion, mine being that the next time I am looking for more zoom fixtures I will most likely look towards the selecon zooms.

 

[BobHealey]

One additional disadvantage of the JR vs the full size S4 is the need to use smaller M size gobos and irises and similar with the JR, while the full size can take the same patterns you've been (attempting) to use in your existing 360Qs (with the proper holder). In addition, the JR has less options in terms optics. The full size goes 5, 10, 14, 19, 26, 36, 50, 70, 90 degrees and can zoom either 15-30 or 25-50 while the JR is 26, 36, 50 degree or 25-50 degree zoom. I'd go with the full size, just to allow the greater flexibility in optics.